Wigan's 2018 accounts

[M j M]

47 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Ah! The "Have you stopped beating your wife" gambit.

 

Not for the first time, across myriad topics, I've no idea what you're talking about.

 

48 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Not exactly the wealthiest?  How do you know and how much is he worth? You could answer that in multiples of MjM net worth.

Well he's not in the UK rich list which goes down to £120m. I'm sure he's comfortable but he's not got limitless funds.

 

46 minutes ago, Damien said:

I'd take successful businessmen having a major input into the running of Super League any day over the incompetence shown by the RFL. An incompetent RFL who for many years cosied up to one club and one person in particular for far too long. Maybe Leeds and Hetherington losing all their influence and power is your true beef here.

Ahh so you have a conspiracy theory? Cool, I prefer to just look at the facts shown in club accounts.

But let's just puncture the "successful businessmen" myth. I've worked for and with people richer than Lenagan and they knew and know their businesses inside out. The thought of some of them running a Rugby League club though is vaguely terrifying because it's totally outside the regular scope of both their business and business generally. These aren't easily transferrable skills, as we seem time and time again with club owners.

On the flip side I wouldn't want Hetherington to run a software development firm because he's made all his money from the business of Rugby League and wouldn't know where to start.

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

That record crowd was achieved by Catalans working with FC Barcelona, it was nothing to do with Elstone and the SL management.

I never said otherwise. Gausch, who is in charge of Catalans, is one of those big hitter chairmen though is he not?

[I0RL]

I think people are being unfair on IL saying that he should have got his own house in order first. He recognises that the drop in attendances and wider income sources such as TV revenue is a game wide issue. Solving that helps the game and his own club.

[M j M]

11 minutes ago, I0RL said:

I think people are being unfair on IL saying that he should have got his own house in order first. He recognises that the drop in attendances and wider income sources such as TV revenue is a game wide issue. Solving that helps the game and his own club.

TV revenues haven't fallen.

Lenagan's only direct involvement with TV is that he voted for the last deal then said it was terrible and he should have voted against.

A deal which, in hindsight, was an excellent one.

[saintspete83]

4 hours ago, Damien said:

Dave Whelan came to own Edge Hall Road after sinking millions into Orrell RUFC and saving them from going out of business. Note Dave Whelan had bought this lease from developers after Orrell RUFC had already sold it to save their skin.

Wigan RLFC used it as a training base and Ian Lenegan bought the training ground as part of the purchase of the club when it was sold by Dave Whelan.

How come orrell stopped playing there? 

[saintspete83]

37 minutes ago, M j M said:

TV revenues haven't fallen.

Lenagan's only direct involvement with TV is that he voted for the last deal then said it was terrible and he should have voted against.

A deal which, in hindsight, was an excellent one.

How was it excellent? Most accepted because a large chunck was paid upfront. Carter at wakey said he didnt have much choice as he had not long taken over and couldnt say no to the large upfront payment, in hindsight he said it wasn't the best deal and should have been more. The next one could cripple the game. If there is no deal then its game over. 

[Damien]

17 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

How come orrell stopped playing there? 

They couldn't afford to.

[M j M]

9 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

How was it excellent? Most accepted because a large chunck was paid upfront. Carter at wakey said he didnt have much choice as he had not long taken over and couldnt say no to the large upfront payment, in hindsight he said it wasn't the best deal and should have been more. The next one could cripple the game. If there is no deal then its game over. 

It locked Sky in at a rate which was above market value at a time of quickly changing media trends. If, as expected, the next deal is for less per year then it will have proven to have been a good move.

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, M j M said:

It locked Sky in at a rate which was above market value at a time of quickly changing media trends. If, as expected, the next deal is for less per year then it will have proven to have been a good move.

It was not above market value. By definition what Sky paid was the market value. They are not a charity.

[Wigan Riversider]

1 hour ago, saintspete83 said:

How come orrell stopped playing there? 

Whelan withdrew his 'support' and thus they were doomed.

[I0RL]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

TV revenues haven't fallen.

Lenagan's only direct involvement with TV is that he voted for the last deal then said it was terrible and he should have voted against.

A deal which, in hindsight, was an excellent one.

I didn't say TV revenues had fallen but they clearly need to rise if the game is to develop. 

[M j M]

48 minutes ago, Damien said:

It was not above market value. By definition what Sky paid was the market value. They are not a charity.

OK, fair enough.

But Sky made it a good deal so that SL would sign it because they wanted to announce it amongst a batch of renewals to the stock market all at once. So there were favourable circumstances behind it.

[JohnM]

3 hours ago, M j M said:

Not for the first time, across myriad topics, I've no idea what you're talking about.

 

Well he's not in the UK rich list which goes down to £120m. I'm sure he's comfortable but he's not got limitless funds.

 

Ahh so you have a conspiracy theory? Cool, I prefer to just look at the facts shown in club accounts.

But let's just puncture the "successful businessmen" myth. I've worked for and with people richer than Lenagan and they knew and know their businesses inside out. The thought of some of them running a Rugby League club though is vaguely terrifying because it's totally outside the regular scope of both their business and business generally. These aren't easily transferrable skills, as we seem time and time again with club owners.

On the flip side I wouldn't want Hetherington to run a software development firm because he's made all his money from the business of Rugby League and wouldn't know where to start.

1. No idea what I'm talking about? You should have paid more attention at school instead of sitting at the back of class scoffing at the efforts of those you don't like.

2. The Sunday Times Rich List that states "We measure identifiable wealth, whether land, property, racehorses, art or significant shares in publicly quoted companies. We exclude bank accounts—to which we have no access... We try to give due consideration to liabilities."

3. You asserted he was not the wealthiest of club owners, but you don't say how wealthy he is. Which other club owners are in the Sunday Times Rich List? Which ones are more wealthy than IL? 

4. As your motivation clearly is not altruistic, what is it? 11 more SL clubs for you to look at.  

[M j M]

28 minutes ago, JohnM said:

4. As your motivation clearly is not altruistic, what is it? 11 more SL clubs for you to look at.  

I shared a comprehensive run down of the financial results of the Big 4 a couple of weeks ago and have been commenting on them on this forum for years. Saints, Warrington and Leeds are generally unremarkable companies with strong asset bases and no going concern emphasis in the reports of their auditors so aren't really that interesting although you get a few things from time to time, like the size of the loss Leeds made on the RU club going bust.

Unfortunately, it seems, reality doesn't always seem to chime with your world view; for that I apologise.

 

For completeness, Caddick and Moran are the only SL club owners in the Rich List.

[Exiled Wiganer]

5 hours ago, M j M said:

Has he ever stated that he's willing to plough unlimited funds into the RL club? He's not exactly lie wealthiest of club owners.

The bigger concern looking at it from a business is that under his ownership attendances have fallen, sponsorship retention looks appalling (the names on the Wigan shirt seem to change almost every year?) and losses have deepened. As said before, he should have got his own house in order before shouting how badly the wider game was being run and that he and others could do better.

M j M - how about you adopt the Remainers strategy and draft an e mail for us to write in response? Get your pitchfork club chums to back it, and we will all cut and paste it into posts (though johnm may be prepared to go to prison instead). 

[Exiled Wiganer]

33 minutes ago, M j M said:

I shared a comprehensive run down of the financial results of the Big 4 a couple of weeks ago and have been commenting on them on this forum for years. Saints, Warrington and Leeds are generally unremarkable companies with strong asset bases and no going concern emphasis in the reports of their auditors so aren't really that interesting although you get a few things from time to time, like the size of the loss Leeds made on the RU club going bust.

Unfortunately, it seems, reality doesn't always seem to chime with your world view; for that I apologise.

 

For completeness, Caddick and Moran are the only SL club owners in the Rich List.

While I see your point, I would suggest that the combined wealth of the Saints board would put them into the v comfortably off. Plus good luck tracing Mr Hughes net worth. You don’t trade oil for a Genevan based trading house for as long as he has without doing quite nicely. As far as I am aware, Argyll could buy and sell them all of course. 

In any event, there are some points which you are failing to take into account: 

- the club can break even and run a first team paying up to the cap, it would simply require them to adopt the same approach as other clubs to investment in non core activities; and 

- IL is choosing to run the club in the current manner, and could either step aside, in which case there are other Wiganers who would happily put half a million into the club a year.

But, the key point on which we agree is that he hasn’t helped himself. His entrepreneurial instincts to take games away from Wigan haven’t resulted in the windfalls he has hoped for. However, I disagree with the conclusion that anything here suggests he can’t criticise the RFL’s ability to market the game. If he knows anything it is how much money the game needs to generate, and how you need experts for that. Whether Elstone is the answer I don’t know. 

[M j M]

16 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

- the club can break even and run a first team paying up to the cap, it would simply require them to adopt the same approach as other clubs to investment in non core activities; and 

- IL is choosing to run the club in the current manner, and could either step aside, in which case there are other Wiganers who would happily put half a million into the club a year.

But, the key point on which we agree is that he hasn’t helped himself. His entrepreneurial instincts to take games away from Wigan haven’t resulted in the windfalls he has hoped for. However, I disagree with the conclusion that anything here suggests he can’t criticise the RFL’s ability to market the game. If he knows anything it is how much money the game needs to generate, and how you need experts for that. Whether Elstone is the answer I don’t know. 

Other clubs invest plenty into "non-core" activities too...

And again I fully agree, none of these clubs is or should be run to make significant profits in the long run. But what's driving Wigan's losses is not a splurge of investment (most of which would be capital expenditure anyway) but declining crowds and non-Sky revenues. That's my main point really, the club can cut its cloth how it likes but the direction of travel is not good and it's not performing well, even in good years. The fall off in crowds at the DW has been alarming and that - engagement with the fans, the marketing of the club and retention and renewal of fans and sponsors - is an area I perceive Wigan to be underperforming in given they have a succesful team and operate in a town which has very strong Rugby League DNA.

[Dave T]

I'm not sure why the defensiveness kicked in quite so aggressively in this thread, the commentary all seems fair enough. If I was a Wigan fan I'd be worried about some of the points raised, just as I would if Wire were showing substantial drops in crowds over the last 5 years. 

Of course the commentary is right from the Wigan angle that Lenegan appears committed and wealthy enough to support them, but I think there are plenty of things Lenegan does that isnt great on the surface. 

We were told the game in Millwall was part of a long term London approach.

We were told the Sydney tour was the biggest commercial opportunity in their history.

We were told Shaun Edwards was the new coach.

There are a lot of question Mark's about his decisions and his level of honesty around them.

I'm pretty happy to criticise my own club or challenge them when their performance is less than stellar, I dont think there is harm in that.

[Wigan Riversider]

Do Wigan still have a London office which was a talking point when we played at Millwall?

[JohnM]

Ok, maybe an over the top reaction from me but it is the negativity that gets me so angry.  Any opportunity to bring a club, a team, an owner down. It's only natural for a an experienced observer cynical old redneck like me to question the motivation of a critic. Ok, an over the top reaction, but accounts or no accounts, no one knows anything meaningful about Lenagan' s finances.

[Rupert Prince]

6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

If the next deal is for more then is it proven that the previous one was a bad deal?

If the game improves itself, itself... not the NRL or the BBC or SKY or BT, but itself, then someone other than SKY will offer a bid that gives us the right value for money.

As it is Wigan and Cas and their fans are messed around like so much dead meat.

[Padge]

On 08/09/2019 at 01:07, Man of Kent said:

Do Wigan’s interests in Robin Park Arena include getting revenues from the leisure facilities etc?

Yes

 

[Dunbar]

On 07/09/2019 at 22:51, Padge said:

Wigan did a deal with Wigan Council to take over Robin Park Arena, a huge sports facility with athletics track etc. All weather sports pitches, indoor athletics facilities, gyms, offices etc.

WIgan will move their training, academy and business facilities to there. They will then get an income stream from hiring out all the facilities, it has its own bar, useful for matchdays. 

Part of the current debt is due to the investment in this facility, expanding and upgrading it.

Moving into the Arena will allow Lenigan to flog off Orell for a substantial sum.

Stupid number crunchers don't know how investment works, they only see a + or a - bunch of to$$er$.

The Arena is everything bottom right.

As a former season ticket holder at Central Park, that graphic tells you everything you need to know about Wigan RLFC.  A picture showing the home of the club has Wigan Athletic F.C as the team attached to the stadium.

Wigan should have the rugby team at the heart of the community and that means a stadium that the club and the fans can call their home and at the heart of the town.  The DW stadium may be a more modern stadium than the old Central Park but does it really feel like home?  The fans who go to the DW will tell us that it is but what about those that don't.

I know there is a back story to why Wigan RLFC are there but if they were in their own stadium in the heart of Wigan they would be the most vibrant League club in the country and there would be thousands more at the games very week.

[Man of Kent]

13 hours ago, Padge said:

Yes

 

Very sensible investment and the next best thing to a stadium, I suppose.

[Exiled Wiganer]

On 08/09/2019 at 19:02, Dave T said:

I'm not sure why the defensiveness kicked in quite so aggressively in this thread, the commentary all seems fair enough. If I was a Wigan fan I'd be worried about some of the points raised, just as I would if Wire were showing substantial drops in crowds over the last 5 years. 

Of course the commentary is right from the Wigan angle that Lenegan appears committed and wealthy enough to support them, but I think there are plenty of things Lenegan does that isnt great on the surface. 

We were told the game in Millwall was part of a long term London approach.

We were told the Sydney tour was the biggest commercial opportunity in their history.

We were told Shaun Edwards was the new coach.

There are a lot of question Mark's about his decisions and his level of honesty around them.

I'm pretty happy to criticise my own club or challenge them when their performance is less than stellar, I dont think there is harm in that.

If giving context is considered defensive then I suppose I am guilty. If this gives those of us with knowledge of the subject no concern, it is only natural that we explain precisely why that is so. To be told repeatedly that we “should” be concerned is bemusing at best. There is no answer that will suit m j m other than “my god I have just realised that pretty much everything IL has said and done is wrong”, when for those of us who have seen at first hand over many years how the club goes about it are proud about how we spend our money, know exactly what is required (and what is being done) to address some of the issues, and are as excited about the future as we can be. 

When it comes down to it, all that matters is that any club is able to run a business and pay its debts. Whether that can be done through someone’s loose change, like Hughes, or someone’s millionaire’s club like Saints, or through a genuinely sound business model like Leeds, it really doesn’t matter. 

I hope that all clubs thrive, and am happy when they do. By any metric that matters, our club is thriving.