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scotchy1

The Final Round

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Should be the Magic Weekend. 

Saint Helen's could be presented with the LLS in a big event in front of a large crowd giving it the prestige people beg for 

Lots to play for and all games would be televised.

Can be a celebration of the season, have the man of steel awards etc, give out lots of awards for the try of the season etc during it

Retiring players can be given a big send off

Full season to build up to it

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The games have to run synchronous otherwise there is a danger results can be manipulated. This is true for games an hour apart as much as a day apart.

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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The games have to run synchronous otherwise there is a danger results can be manipulated. This is true for games an hour apart as much as a day apart.

We don't have games run synchronous now, we haven't had before. 

The synchronicity of games is also a bit overstated as an issue. Its not really able to be manipulated that much. Its a much bigger issue in football where draws are more common.

Its only in very specific set of circumstances it would make any difference and even then I would question whether it would be a meaningful difference (or one that couldn't be mitigated hugely by the order of scheduling)

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We don't have games run synchronous now, we haven't had before. 

The synchronicity of games is also a bit overstated as an issue. Its not really able to be manipulated that much. Its a much bigger issue in football where draws are more common.

Its only in very specific set of circumstances it would make any difference and even then I would question whether it would be a meaningful difference (or one that couldn't be mitigated hugely by the order of scheduling)

What's happening on Friday at 7.45pm?

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15 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We don't have games run synchronous now, we haven't had before. 

The synchronicity of games is also a bit overstated as an issue. Its not really able to be manipulated that much. Its a much bigger issue in football where draws are more common.

Its only in very specific set of circumstances it would make any difference and even then I would question whether it would be a meaningful difference (or one that couldn't be mitigated hugely by the order of scheduling)

There was a very real possibility that Wakefield and London could have known that a draw would see them both stay up had the schedule remained the same. Whether we want to admit it or not those thoughts (and perhaps even conversations) could happen. 

Now we don't have to consider that and have a great battle at the end. A similar situation to the LLS finale in 2015.

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I don't mind the idea of Magic moving to a later timeslot; with the CCF moving earlier in the year it may become necessity. I just don't think the final round is feasible for it.

 

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25 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There was a very real possibility that Wakefield and London could have known that a draw would see them both stay up had the schedule remained the same. Whether we want to admit it or not those thoughts (and perhaps even conversations) could happen. 

Now we don't have to consider that and have a great battle at the end. A similar situation to the LLS finale in 2015.

We could, but I find the idea of two teams managing themselves to a draw to avoid relegation in a game of rugby league, live on tv, pretty preposterous. It would take an awful lot of trust in the other side to pull it off. Who would entrust the other side not to try and win the game? Especially with golden point?

We also don't get to watch most of the battle. Because people will be at games and there are only 2 games on tv if HKR or Hudds score a last second wonder try to stay up (or concede one) next to nobody would see it live. 

imagine the tension built up throughout the day

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3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We could, but I find the idea of two teams managing themselves to a draw to avoid relegation in a game of rugby league, live on tv, pretty preposterous. It would take an awful lot of trust in the other side to pull it off. Who would entrust the other side not to try and win the game? Especially with golden point?

We also don't get to watch most of the battle. Because people will be at games and there are only 2 games on tv if HKR or Hudds score a last second wonder try to stay up (or concede one) next to nobody would see it live. 

imagine the tension built up throughout the day

It's not just engineering a draw though is it (which is almost impossible with golden point anyway).  The final round this year has a real possibility of for and against points difference being the deciding factor for relegation.

I don't see why we would put ourselves in a position where that could be manipulated - either in reality or in perception.

On the Hicks Challenge Cup Final thread you were concerned about the perception of our sport putting itself in a position where the ref could be seen to be compromised and now you are advocating for a final round where there would be a perception of results being manipulated.

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

It's not just engineering a draw though is it (which is almost impossible with golden point anyway).  The final round this year has a real possibility of for and against points difference being the deciding factor for relegation.

I don't see why we would put ourselves in a position where that could be manipulated - either in reality or in perception.

On the Hicks Challenge Cup Final thread you were concerned about the perception of our sport putting itself in a position where the ref could be seen to be compromised and now you are advocating for a final round where there would be a perception of results being manipulated.

Ok so this year how can it be manipulated? Realistically and in a way that couldn't be pretty much entirely mitigated by the sequencing in which we play the games. 

I don't think we are putting ourselves in a position where results can be manipulated. I think you are vastly overstating a non-existent risk, that is theoretical real but practically virtually impossible to actually pull off. 

Also, as I said the reasons why I was concerned about the position we put the refs is wasn't because I thought there was some sort of malfeasance, I made it abundantly clear I didn't. But more simply because it made a referees tough job, harder, and we receive minimal benefit for doing so. 

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1 minute ago, Canis Lupus said:

Last year in the super 8's HKR  knew what they had to do on the final day as TWP had played earlier in the week. Got to have final round of games at the same time .

 

This is true but its not manipulating results and its not really unfair. 

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

This is true but its not manipulating results and its not really unfair. 

How can it not be unfair.

Take this year.

If HKR played at Salford and lost before London played at Wakefield then Wakey would know they were safe on points difference and that would provide an unfair advantage to London playing against a team knowing they were safe to get the win and send HKR down.

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

How can it not be unfair.

Take this year.

If HKR played at Salford and lost before London played at Wakefield then Wakey would know they were safe on points difference and that would provide an unfair advantage to London playing against a team knowing they were safe to get the win and send HKR down.

Toronto went down because they had an inferior points difference to HKR. Not because HKR knew what they had to do. Its a story that can only be written in hindsight. Would it have still been unfair if HKR had only won by a point and Toronto were promoted? of course not. 

And in your situation, Hull KR are entirely in control of that situation. Don't lose. Its not unfair that HKR have a massively inferior points differential. 

Even if that were a worry we should take seriously (which im not sure we should). Swap the games around. Have Wakefield v London first up. London win the other teams know if they win Wakefield are down, if they lose its probably them. If London lose they are down. But we know that today anyway. 

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3 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

What's happening on Friday at 7.45pm?

I will be arriving home from my regular, weekly church choir practice and, over a belated meal, taking a little bit of time to think what went well at rehearsal and what went not so well, and thus what the practical implications of all that could be for next week's practice.

Thanks for asking, PB.

 

(Later, I will watch the RL on Sky, which I will have recorded.)

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4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

There was a very real possibility that Wakefield and London could have known that a draw would see them both stay up had the schedule remained the same. Whether we want to admit it or not those thoughts (and perhaps even conversations) could happen. 

Now we don't have to consider that and have a great battle at the end. A similar situation to the LLS finale in 2015.

But what about Thursday?  It still has an impact.  And if it has to be all on Friday why not make ALL fans know properly n gpkd time (like all season) and not drop it all on 2 teams/ fans to be shafted on Thursday at short notice.

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I think it’s the best way to launch a season. Just a shame that somewhere closer to the heartlands doesn’t have a roof. 

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5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Should be the Magic Weekend. 

Saint Helen's could be presented with the LLS in a big event in front of a large crowd giving it the prestige people beg for 

Lots to play for and all games would be televised.

Can be a celebration of the season, have the man of steel awards etc, give out lots of awards for the try of the season etc during it

Retiring players can be given a big send off

Full season to build up to it

Cardiff or Murray field ? At the start of the Autumn Internationals ?

Plus next year we could have 3 or 4 clubs much closer on PD 

Sorry bad idea 

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2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Cardiff or Murray field ? At the start of the Autumn Internationals ?

Plus next year we could have 3 or 4 clubs much closer on PD 

Sorry bad idea 

Why only Cardiff or Murrayfield?

There are plenty of stadiums in England who are able to hold it, we never seem short of offers

With planning we needn't even limit it to England. 

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

Why only Cardiff or Murrayfield?

There are plenty of stadiums in England who are able to hold it, we never seem short of offers

With planning we needn't even limit it to England. 

A premier stadium 4 weeks after the start of their season to host 6 games ?

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

A premier stadium 4 weeks after the start of their season to host 6 games ?

Why not? 

Didn't we have loads of places bidding for 2021 world cup games, didn't we have a double header at Wembley in November in 2013? Coventry in 2016?

I don't know where this idea that football clubs wont host RL matches in the autumn comes from. We do it at least once every year

 

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10 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Why not? 

Didn't we have loads of places bidding for 2021 world cup games, didn't we have a double header at Wembley in November in 2013? Coventry in 2016?

I don't know where this idea that football clubs wont host RL matches in the autumn comes from. We do it at least once every year

 

Neither of us know for sure , and I doubt we'll find out either 

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2 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

But what about Thursday?  It still has an impact.  And if it has to be all on Friday why not make ALL fans know properly n gpkd time (like all season) and not drop it all on 2 teams/ fans to be shafted on Thursday at short notice.

A good last round would always require a last minute decision. It would be better to have that at a magic type event as people would be encouraged to commit to the whole event 

As you say, if the principle of synchronised kick offs is sacrosanct then no games can be played at other times. Something that is happening right now and has happened for years.

And if we commit to that idea, that it is sacrosanct, then we also commit to having only one game televised from the final round and a lot of the live drama being missed. 

As a tv product that's a lot less valuable. 

Sky would be absolutely hyping the hell out of this weekend if it were magic, all 6 games, everything on the line, sudden death, the final round

Edited by scotchy1
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5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Toronto went down because they had an inferior points difference to HKR. Not because HKR knew what they had to do. Its a story that can only be written in hindsight. Would it have still been unfair if HKR had only won by a point and Toronto were promoted? of course not. 

And in your situation, Hull KR are entirely in control of that situation. Don't lose. Its not unfair that HKR have a massively inferior points differential. 

Even if that were a worry we should take seriously (which im not sure we should). Swap the games around. Have Wakefield v London first up. London win the other teams know if they win Wakefield are down, if they lose its probably them. If London lose they are down. But we know that today anyway. 

It is agreed best practice across sports that the last games of the season should kick off concurrently to mitigate the fear of results being manipulated based on knowledge of what results/scorelines individual teams need to achieve.

It doesn't matter if it is difficult or impossible to manipulate results, it is the perception of being fair and impartial that matters.

This is a direct quote from you in the thread about Hicks refereeing in the Challenge Cup final. 

"we are particularly poor at painting the image if impartiality in the game"

It seems that the image of the game and the partiality of the sport is important to you until it is an idea of yours that creates the image of impartiality and then you simply shrug it off.

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