Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Emphatic shrug. Dismissed lightly.

If who makes it to the final matters, why have a league at all?

 

To make money.....?

[TheReaper]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

To make money.....?

There's more money to be made if P/R is scrapped, should that happen too?

 

Or should we base who makes the GF on attendance, not scores or standings?

[Loup]

2 hours ago, TheReaper said:

The entire situation is ridiculous. 

In any other professional league this would all have been laid out before the season started.

In any other almost professional league this would all have been figured out before the playoffs at the very least. Leaving it until after the winner is determined is a joke. The rules should have been in place, communicated clearly, and been equally applied to all participants. 

Treating each other equally is huge problem for English rugby league. Everyone is too worried about getting their own table scraps instead of learning how to cook.

A successful league needs to be a true partnership. Look at the NFL - all TV revenue,  league sponsorship,  national merch sales, and even ticket revenue , is shared equally.  Not saying other leagues need to or can do that, but that's the kind of thinking that has taken them where they are today.  They understand that every club being on stable ground means that they can focus on selling and improving the game, instead of constant threats to existence holding parts of the league back.

What I'd suggest is this:

-ALL tv revenue, from all sources, be shared equally. No more "this team gets this, you guys get this" . 

-Because it is so uneven, travel costs will come out of the overall pot before the money is split. Everyone has to travel, everyone has different distances and costs, but everyone is an equal partner and has that cost covered.

-everyone does their best to bring in sponsors, including the league office. All efforts are made to turn sponsorships in league-wide sponsorships.  TWP may have a deal in the works with Air Transat/ Air Canada, that could be turned into being "the official airline of Super League". Greater value for them, that travel sponsorship money goes into the pot to cover some or all of it. You could add a coach line, train line, hotel chain to that suite of official partners.

-make "best efforts" to a somewhat regular schedule, but understand you can't defeat mother nature.  Weather is different in other parts of the world.  In order to attract fans in attendance,  and for player safety, Toronto would need a back-weighted schedule. This isn't the end of the world. Similar consideration would be given to all clubs in time of stadium construction or other reasons.

-at the outset,  ahead of time, lay out in writing what happens when teams go up or down. No more amateur dithering up to the last second and looking like a bunch of idiots.

 

*the fact that the original deal was for three years does NOT mean it is automatically done and won't be renewed. There is no evidence for that anywhere.  

Move over, Robert Elstone. Brilliant post.

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, TheReaper said:

There's more money to be made if P/R is scrapped, should that happen too?

 

Or should we base who makes the GF on attendance, not scores or standings?

Standings, obviously. Not sure of your point.

 

[GUBRATS]

17 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

It was Nigel Wood’s decision, wasn’t it? A lot has changed since then...

Apparently yes 

[TheReaper]

20 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Standings, obviously. Not sure of your point.

 

My point is that it's ridiculous for a league to be picky about who gets to the final and pretend to have any kind of claim to fair play competition merit. All member clubs have an equal chance to succeed, even going as far as to have a salary cap to keep things level.

If the league can't function without a guaranteed number of people at the neutral final, then I'm sure the higher ranked team would be happy to host. Problem solved. Or do what soccer in the UK does and have no playoffs and no final. 

My point is that if it was only about money, we wouldn't be kicking a club out every year. If it was only about money, then the "final" would be between the biggest two clubs every year, or even put out for tender and the two richest clubs can buy the rights.

It's not only about money. It's not even primarily about money. It's about sport, and money is just a necessity to make that happen at the level we've grown accustomed to. 

 

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

My point is that it's ridiculous for a league to be picky about who gets to the final and pretend to have any kind of claim to fair play competition merit. 

But Super League can decide who competes in its comp, right?

This isn’t a pop at Toronto Wolfpack by the way. 

We’d be having the same discussions about any other random long-distance club, be it the ‘Winnipeg Wreckers’, the ‘Edmonton Eskimos’, the ‘Mexico City Maulers’, the ‘Pyongyang Pylons’ or even the ‘Bangkok City Ladyboys’ for that matter.

[TheReaper]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

But Super League can decide who competes in its comp, right?

This isn’t a pop at Toronto Wolfpack by the way. 

We’d be having the same discussions about any other random long-distance club, be it the ‘Winnipeg Wreckers’, the ‘Edmonton Eskimos’, the ‘Mexico City Maulers’, the ‘Pyongyang Pylons’ or even the ‘Bangkok City Ladyboys’ for that matter.

That's why this is so contentious.

 

There are two main "models" for how this works. The British system of P/R, an agreed method of teams moving up or down based on results. Sometimes with criteria applied but those should be evenly and fairly applied.

Or, the North American model where these is only one Major league, and any other leagues are either inferior through formal agreement to be minor leagues, or so clearly below the level of the top league so as to not be in competition. This is accomplished by the major league by trying to monopolize the top level. This was mostly in the mid 1900's, where leagues aggressively expanded in order to lock up the top markets and ensure dominance, and outbidding all others for talent. Of course, there was and still is able to be rivals to these. And in almost all cases, we saw mergers and absorptions of those rival to create bigger and and stronger leagues. Life is better inside the monopoly, everybody makes money, everybody is clearly in the best league, everybody is happy. While not "purely" based on results as in the other system, there aren't really any challengers any more. When a team wins the Super Bowl, there is no question that some other team in a different league might be better. 

 

The problem we have here is that Super League isn't as strong as those monopolizing leagues, and since it is currently using a P/R system, it doesn't have the clout to abandon that selectively when it suits them. Yes it's their own comp and no one's rules but their own, but as we can see from this forum, a large number of people aren't accepting it. Most who buy into the British sporting values believe TWP deserve to go up if they win, same as any other club. Those who believe in the American values see the opportunities that lie in accepting a strong member that can expand the footprint of the league and its revenues.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

I'm led to believe there's an opening in Manchester.......

[GUBRATS]

59 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

But Super League can decide who competes in its comp, right?

 

Yes , but not who wins it 

[The Parksider]

14 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

if it is TWP I think they will be accepted in on a year's probation, with a bond, and the functioning, financing and everything else willl be under the microscope to see if their inclusion a good fit, this will also dictate the ongoing blueprint for any other teams from North America.

Harry, you do realise Toronto's alleged "success" is based entirely on finding a $$Bilionaire who is so mad about Rugby league he does not mind spending shedloads of money he won't get back? So who are these "any other teams" with RL mad Billionaires ready to be the blueprints?

11 hours ago, Loup said:

As a Wolfpack fan, I'm concerned that SL will again try to milk the Wolfpack for a ridiculous amount of money 

What else have TWP brought to the party? No TV deals to share, no players to add to the player pool? All the club offers the game here is a rich owner (and we do need these). The problem SL have that requires a bond  is this rich owner is worth at least a thousand $Million dollars yet is not paying quite a number of bills. Superleague certainly need some very heavy financial guarantees given the situation.

10 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Just find it hard to see how Toronto can (A) be successful on the pitch and (B) turn a profit.To get this far has required very deep pockets and their costs are only going to increase. At some point the investors will want a return. Argyle & co. may well sell to recoup their losses but is this actually a viable venture? 

You've lost me? What investors?? It's Argylle's baby and he has at least a thousand $$Million to spend on it until he passes on like we all will do one day? He doesn't need to turn a profit does he, which is why he can chase a Superleague place and just make up the massive losses year on year from his personal fortune. Why can't you see it's not in anyway a viable (as in profitable) why is that "hard to see" mate? 

9 hours ago, Loup said:

Within a couple of seasons, there could be two or three North American teams building momentum for bigger and better sponsorship and tv deals.

No there couldn't unless you can find a few more Argyle's. Do you think New York has the money? Perez's take on the TV deals was that nothing big would come from NATV unless the game offered a number of NA clubs playing each other, so he wanted as many as six NA clubs in Superleague. You tell me where your going to find five more Argyle's prepared to subsidise the massive losses. You tell me which of the bigger English clubs will roll over and die to let them in for this nonsense.

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

If SL didn’t like the idea they should have said three years ago, instead of shamelessly wasting a lot of people's time and money. I get the impression they have no idea what they want though, and are completely rudderless.

Utter nonsense. What happened was TWP applied for the Championship, and got in because it made Wood look good just before his move to RLIF. If TWP wanted Superleague it was up to them to contact Lenegan and company and seek permission to work towards a Superleague place, and agree on what SL wanted them to do for it.

They didn't do that which was shameful. Instead they ignored SL, steamrollered the small clubs to get to the gates of Superleague knowing that would put pressure on Superleague to accept them. Imagine the bad publicity our game will get if SL turn down Toronto Wolfpack if they win the play off. It's a cheap trick...

People in general don't understand TWP isn't "expansion" even on here people who should know better can't accept dressing up players from here in Canadian jerseys isn't expanding the game in North America. It's a sham. The world cup was supposed to expand the game by inspiring North American's to form clubs and start playing the game and attract north american investment accordingly. That's gone.

Superleague were right to call out Argyle's sham NA club, but nobody is listening and even people who should know better on here, are getting dragged into the idea of more NA clubs lining up to save our game. Is some sort of mass hypnosis going on? 

[Oxford]

On 12/09/2019 at 22:22, Davo5 said:

How would you know,your usually too busy counting the crowd.

I don't think you realise the mathematics involved there. There's extrapolating the the numbers of cardboard cutouts,the  estimating of the the number of blow up dolls, the actual counting while anti-posting and factoring in expansion exageration coming up with this as the only possible outcome

and then this has to be halved and rounded down for complete accuracy. So all in all it's proven mathematically that TWP is just a bad dream and we'll all wake up any moment now ............ or now ............or .......

 

[TIWIT]

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Absolutely nothing new.

Or relevant.

Or interesting.

 

[Man of Kent]

5 hours ago, The Parksider said:

You've lost me? What investors?? It's Argylle's baby and he has at least a thousand $$Million to spend on it until he passes on like we all will do one day? He doesn't need to turn a profit does he, which is why he can chase a Superleague place and just make up the massive losses year on year from his personal fortune. Why can't you see it's not in anyway a viable (as in profitable) why is that "hard to see" mate? 

 

I’m sure I’ve read Arygle is the front man for a consortium of investors. Go look it up.

In any case, if it’s just a rich man’s plaything, if Argyle is in it to be a kind of Willy Wonka figure with his downtown Toronto rugby league fun factory then why the unpaid bills, the late payroll issues?

It doesn’t wash.

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Dave T said:

Maybe, but we have done it many times over the years - London, Paris, Gateshead etc have exceeded the normal cap in P&R leagues. The game has generally accepted that it is harder for these clubs and if we want them to succeed we may need to make concessions.

Those club's you mention David were at a time well before the funding was as important to any club as it is today, I can think of 1.85 million reasons that some of today's SL club's would not be as benevolent in assisting a contemporary club to have the ability to spend more money on a playing roster, as I eluded to before if this comes down to a majority vote of the SL incumbents I cannot see there would be enough clubs in the in the affirmative to allow any club to spend more, and why should they? and please do not use the old chestnut "for the good of the game" I will counter that with "charity begins at home".

[Oxford]

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Imagine the bad publicity our game will get if SL turn down Toronto Wolfpack if they win the play off. It's a cheap trick...

Yeah, imagine if a team won the competition based on P&R that Parky championed for page after page after page and earned the right to go up into the next tier, what kind of  inferior ugly mentality and utter disrespect could possibly allow that to happen? That depth of poor quality of following the rules beggars belief and can only make our proud sport a laughing stock at the Batley Variety Center and the Cleckedmondwike Social Club  Hen Nights and will lead to us being largely ignored by Wakebriidge radio for years to come.

The opium smokers and Xanadu lovers on here need to get a grip and realise that Lenegan's Island needs to remain free from all foreign imported ideas and new fangled rigmarole.

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, Canis Lupus said:

For sure it will have to be different . With the cuts made towards the end of the season I am not sure how many players there would be for DR or loan. The majority of clubs can be more selective on new recruits whereas TWP need a big influx of players which will cost . As Dave T said there will need to be concessions made otherwise they will be fighting with one hand tied behind their back.

But that is the way if the world Canis, read my previous post to David, by assisting the Wolfpack in being allowed to spend more on player's some club's could feel the the backlash of that decision, if we have a repeat of this season and there are a number of club's striving to avoid relegation and assuming the Wolfpack are one of those, that advantage could work in the packs favour, is that fair?

[Scubby]

On 13/09/2019 at 07:25, Dave T said:

What do we think the costs will be for a trip to TWP for each club? Maybe a couple of grand per person? £60k per club? So over 14 games that would be an additional cost brought into SL of maybe £850k. 

Is it reasonable for SL to demand that this cost is covered? I think it is, whether that is by sponsors, media or the club themselves. 

I genuinely cant see a sticking point beyond that. As has been said TWP are less risky than many clubs in the game.

It is easy to see that if TWP wont be funding the travel costs then it would come from their tv funding.

But regardless of that, they are withholding £1.9m from Toronto if they are promoted - £1.9m - £850k = +£1.05m (for SL clubs)

If Leigh or York get promoted they will get £1.9m from SL - £1.9m -£1.9m = £0 (for SL clubs)

So how does that work out? Who is worse off? It is ridiculous. They want their cake .... and they want to divvy up the 12/12 slice of SL funding between themselves too.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Loup said:

That the Air Transat deal is ending, yes, it's public and not a new announcement.

As I said upthread, and can't be bothered to retype, Air Transat is in the process of being acquired by Air Canada - a much larger airline. More aircraft, more capacity, business class seats for Gareth Widdop. A new travel deal has to be negotiated anyway, but the scope will also depend on whether or not Wolfpack get promoted/admitted to Super League and a projection of away fan visits. It's possible AC will leave AT alone at first, to run their own operations, but who knows in the longer term.

Other airlines service the Toronto-Manchester route but most include a stop-over.

Reading between those lines Mr Loup, if TWP do not gain promotion either on the field of play or by SL not granting admittance, will they in your opinion  be deemed by AC or AT not worth speculating on by means of sponsorship in the future, and if so what will be the consequences for the club?

[Oliver Clothesoff]

It’s that time of year for the “Toronto might not get in Super League” posts already? 

[Scubby]

14 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

There’s also the issue of the Grand Final. What happens if TWP get to Old Trafford and it’s half empty?

Yes, it should be sold out or nearly sold out regardless in an ideal world but in reality Toronto risks a financial and reputational hit to SL’s flagship event. These things do need to be considered and not dismissed lightly.

What if it was held at Rogers Centre in 2024 and it was rammed?

What if Catalans get there and it is played in Marseilles in front of 60k? 

If you end up with 2 French clubs and a Canadian club in SL then eventually you will have to start understanding you have an 'international' league. At moment, it is we (existing northern clubs) hold a higher moral place than you, which is the reason RL is a small tin pot operation in the UK. Instead of embracing its international element, RL treats it like #### (the Challenge Cup bond a perfect example).

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

But regardless of that, they are withholding £1.9m from Toronto if they are promoted - £1.9m - £850k = +£1.05m (for SL clubs)

If Leigh or York get promoted they will get £1.9m from SL - £1.9m -£1.9m = £0 (for SL clubs)

So how does that work out? Who is worse off? It is ridiculous. They want their cake .... and they want to divvy up the 12/12 slice of SL funding between themselves too.

Well this is the detail we don't know Scubby. Are you aware of them not getting central funding?

[Scubby]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well this is the detail we don't know Scubby. Are you aware of them not getting central funding?

The original squabbles were that Toronto had said that they would forego their central funding for the ability to negotiate their own NA commercial deals. I would imagine this is what is on the table and where the squabbling lies (or similar). I can't think of any other situation in world sport where negotiations of this kind are being done a couple of weeks from a GF. It happens every year in RL and we never learn. It happened even before we had international teams FFS.

[Man of Kent]

Just now, Scubby said:

What if it was held at Rogers Centre in 2024 and it was rammed?

What if Catalans get there and it is played in Marseilles in front of 60k? 

So presumably your plan would be to book the Grand Final venue once the finalists are known seven days or so beforehand, giving home advantage to one of the teams. Is that in any way feasible or even desirable? 

Or are you saying we toss away the Old Trafford GF, which has become of one best events in the UK sporting calendar?

[Scubby]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

So presumably your plan would be to book the Grand Final venue once the finalists are known seven days or so beforehand, giving home advantage to one of the teams. Is that in any way feasible or even desirable? 

Or are you saying we toss away the Old Trafford GF, which has become of one best events in the UK sporting calendar?

Nope I am not saying that, nor wait for finalists.

If potentially a quarter of your competition are from other countries, it is likely that they will get to GFs in time. The GF final at OT is great, however it was 10k under capacity last year and will be that or more so this year (that is with teams within ####### distance playing). 

You cannot run a whole competition with the (fingers crossed) hope that 2 well supported clubs make the final. That is an embarrassment. The RFL genuinely thought Wembley would be okay because Saints got there this year - they are bloody deluded!