Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, TboneFromTO said:

TV money keeps coming up every so often.  I would suggest (if I had any authority which I don't) that the pot be split evenly after allocating the central funding equivalent, 

If  Toronto get a 5 mil deal, the first 2.1 (or what ever equivalent central funding is) go to them, the rest (2.9) gets split evenly among the league in the event of a na deal.

I think that would be fair!

I think that would be the kind of thing I would expect to be on offer at the moment. 

SO basically TWP take the risk if there is zero incoming from Canada, but everyone shares the benefits if it exceeds current levels.

It may seem harsh, but the game has been quite clear from the start that it isn't investing it's money into Canada, rightly or wrongly.

I think that feels like a good compromise to start, and then maybe go for more joined up deals as part of the next round of negotiations. But there is a fair argument that if SLE are cynical of the opportunity that they ask TWP to put their money where their mouth is and find the pot of gold.

[TboneFromTO]

Just now, TheReaper said:

I think the other clubs have shown that they are happy to keep what's theirs as theirs, and ours as ours.

But if twp get more SL would want more and fairly so - it takes two teams to play! Balancing out the pot helps all sides wanting a bigger deal. More money for all teams strengthens the league, which is the point isnt it?

Just now, Dave T said:

I think that would be the kind of thing I would expect to be on offer at the moment. 

SO basically TWP take the risk if there is zero incoming from Canada, but everyone shares the benefits if it exceeds current levels.

It may seem harsh, but the game has been quite clear from the start that it isn't investing it's money into Canada, rightly or wrongly.

I think that feels like a good compromise to start, and then maybe go for more joined up deals as part of the next round of negotiations. But there is a fair argument that if SLE are cynical of the opportunity that they ask TWP to put their money where their mouth is and find the pot of gold.

I agree that would be the expectation, but it's rugby league, who knows what everyone is thinking!

 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, TboneFromTO said:

But if twp get more SL would want more and fairly so - it takes two teams to play! Balancing out the pot helps all sides wanting a bigger deal. More money for all teams strengthens the league, which is the point isnt it?

I agree that would be the expectation, but it's rugby league, who knows what everyone is thinking!

 

It was interesting reading Elstone's comments. It reads as though they are having discussions with the RFL rather than TWP which is odd. 

[TboneFromTO]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It was interesting reading Elstone's comments. It reads as though they are having discussions with the RFL rather than TWP which is odd. 

Maybe he's intimidated by the very nice David argyle? 

[Loup]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

But they are participating in a game which is part of the culture of the area if not the country, Rugby League has not bot that cultural connection.

 

1 hour ago, Mattrhino said:

The Blue Jay's and Raptors seem to do just fine without any Canadian players. No one seems to give a hoot. 

According to the Internet the Blue Jay's have had only 16 Canadian players in their 40+ years of existence.

Blue Jays (b 1977) and Raptors (b 1995) are the only Canadian-based teams in the respective top-tier US sports leagues. Neither club goes back to the dawn of time, yet their presence has led to a huge rise in standard of Canadian-born players across the board. Correct, there are no Canadian-born players in the Raptors and possibly one relief pitcher currently on the Jays. But today there are Canadian lads playing for other teams in the NBA and MLB as a direct result of the top-down growth in the sport. Put another way, the sports became part of the culture of the area as the result of the clubs existing.

The clubs don't recruit Canadian-born players to use them as a badge - they recruit the players they want on the team. The Raptors team that won the NBA Championship this year includes players from all over the map.

I have much to learn about rugby league, but I truly don't understand the zero-sum game attitude to "not enough players" and "good English lads dressed up in Canadian jerseys". More teams = bigger rosters, especially if the wages are increasing to full-time levels = more lads getting the chance to play = more kids staying interested through school and clubs. If there were more opportunity to play full-time, wouldn't more of the part-time players be able to step up?

And when did Harry Stottle turn into Parky's wingman?

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

My point is without both a foundation to fall back on or a cultural connection it will not last the test of time,, you seem to be such an expert in Totonto sports please tell me the participation levels of Basketball and whatever game tge ither club you mentioned play, I would like to guess their are more player's in any obe school in Toronto, than those actively involved in rugby league in the whole if the country, not really a good comparrison on your part.

PS for a gimmick it certainly convinced those on these pages with not a lot of grey matter. 

You overlook the fact that back when the Raptors joined the NBA, Canadians had no cultural connection to basketball but the Raptors and their success in that game's top pro league created that cultural connection here.

[Davo5]

44 minutes ago, Loup said:

 

And when did Harry Stottle turn into Parky's wingman?

Since he became a leading authority on Canadian sports and culture apparently.

[Toby Chopra]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

But they are participating in a game which is part of the culture of the area if not the country, Rugby League has not bot that cultural connection.

Culture is an evolutionary thing Harry, not something fixed in stone for ever more. And it works both ways. Rugby league is no longer a big part of the culture for many people in towns where it used to be king. But it can become part of the culture elsewhere - if it offers people a meaningful connection in the present day. 

Any sport that relies just on the fact that it used to popular in a particular area, without making itself meaningful to new generations, will just fade away.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

It was interesting reading Elstone's comments. It reads as though they are having discussions with the RFL rather than TWP which is odd. 

I will try one last time to explain it to you (feels like I'm talking to a brick wall).  The reason RFL is involved is because bigger things are happening and they are all interrelated...some involve the RFL: Ottawa for example.  If Toronto and Toulouse are both promoted and London stays in SL then the RFL will have to deal with that....there are more than one or two variables at play here....its all in play at the moment...I don't think you realize that.  There is alot going on behind the scenes right now...what has become abundantly clear is that, in this game of chicken,.....Rimmer is afraid of his own shadow.

[Smudger06]

6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Which is even more stupid.

This is the most moronic money grab in the world that could end up costing them 2.3m. 

Why turn down Toronto at a cost of 1.8m to relegate london at a cost of 500k and promote Fev. Its laughable.

Because Fev are a bigger Club than both those combined. Both in assets owned and Away Fan spend at other grounds. 

[TIWIT]

39 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I will try one last time to explain it to you (feels like I'm talking to a brick wall).  The reason RFL is involved is because bigger things are happening and they are all interrelated...some involve the RFL: Ottawa for example.  If Toronto and Toulouse are both promoted and London stays in SL then the RFL will have to deal with that....there are more than one or two variables at play here....its all in play at the moment...I don't think you realize that.  There is alot going on behind the scenes right now...what has become abundantly clear is that, in this game of chicken,.....Rimmer is afraid of his own shadow.

RFL is involved because if TWP are denied their place (assuming they earn it on field) then while Super League will look foolish - which doesn't seem to bother them much - it is the RFL who must deal with ramifications of: TWP ceasing to exist almost immediately, the end of the Ottawa and NYC expansion dreams, and the cost of the inevitable lawsuits that will start flying.

 

[mrfranco]

[ignore - not relevant post I thought better of]

[TIWIT]

9 minutes ago, mrfranco said:

[ignore - not relevant post I thought better of]

If everyone here thought that way this thread would be half its length.

[TheReaper]

2 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

But if twp get more SL would want more and fairly so - it takes two teams to play! Balancing out the pot helps all sides wanting a bigger deal. More money for all teams strengthens the league, which is the point isnt it?

I agree that would be the expectation, but it's rugby league, who knows what everyone is thinking!

 

I agree, but they should be equals from the start, not "when convenient" . As I said in a previous post, everything should be done at the league level and shared by all.

2 hours ago, Loup said:

 

Blue Jays (b 1977) and Raptors (b 1995) are the only Canadian-based teams in the respective top-tier US sports leagues. Neither club goes back to the dawn of time, yet their presence has led to a huge rise in standard of Canadian-born players across the board. Correct, there are no Canadian-born players in the Raptors and possibly one relief pitcher currently on the Jays. But today there are Canadian lads playing for other teams in the NBA and MLB as a direct result of the top-down growth in the sport. Put another way, the sports became part of the culture of the area as the result of the clubs existing.

Correct on basketball,  but baseball roots in Ontario run deep. One of the earliest accounts of the game took place in Beachville Ontario in 1838.

[krakauer]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

not just another attraction like going out for a meal, visiting tge cinema or getting drunk at the beer tents. 

And why the hell not? 

 

[Damien]

1 hour ago, krakauer said:

And why the hell not? 

 

Yeah it's certainly a strange outlook. Maybe that outlook is one of the reasons that so many heartland clubs are struggling for attendances whilst Toronto have sailed past them.

[krakauer]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Yeah it's certainly a strange outlook. Maybe that outlook is one of the reasons that so many heartland clubs are struggling for attendances whilst Toronto have sailed past them.

Yes, we are having too much fun over here!

[Canis Lupus]

The club has realized it's not all about 80 minutes . Sure that needs to be quality but half time and post game at lamport are well thought out to give everyone a fun day out. Not all about the alcohol either.

[TboneFromTO]

3 minutes ago, krakauer said:

Yes, we are having too much fun over here!

There's no place for fun! This is rugby league!

[Loup]

51 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

There's no place for fun! This is rugby league!

Wolfpack have always known that they are primarily in the entertainment business. That's why their marketing approach is successful in a new market - they are selling excitement, fun, experience, not just the sport. Doesn't matter if I wrote the rulebook about the 40/20 or goal line drop out or if I have not a single clue. My ticket, merch and beer expenditure still brings the same revenue. For new fans, the experience is what will bring them back; love of the sport will follow.

And when certain posters begin slagging us off for selling beer, I know we're all doomed.

[Man of Kent]

14 hours ago, The Parksider said:

It a shame you never changed your tune MOK. You always did sit on the fence like so many others because there was always this nagging doubt that TWP might not be phoney baloney and may actually be the future of RL here.

It may be part of the future but if I have any nagging doubts it’s that the whole thing is a bit daft and that Toronto will be a novelty act (which will wear off pretty fast), particularly if they don’t produce any players.

Tend to agree with your central point that expansion without expanding the player base isn’t true expansion. But I’d be happy for Super League to suck it and see if all the risk lies at Toronto’s door.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

9 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

It may be part of the future but if I have any nagging doubts it’s that the whole thing is a bit daft and that Toronto will be a novelty act (which will wear off pretty fast), particularly if they don’t produce any players.

Tend to agree with your central point that expansion without expanding the player base isn’t true expansion. But I’d be happy for Super League to suck it and see if all the risk lies at Toronto’s door.

Toronto have been going 3 years and the so called novelty hasn’t worn off yet, when do you expect it will happen? 

[Manxmanc]

1 hour ago, Loup said:

Wolfpack have always known that they are primarily in the entertainment business. That's why their marketing approach is successful in a new market - they are selling excitement, fun, experience, not just the sport. Doesn't matter if I wrote the rulebook about the 40/20 or goal line drop out or if I have not a single clue. My ticket, merch and beer expenditure still brings the same revenue. For new fans, the experience is what will bring them back; love of the sport will follow.

And when certain posters begin slagging us off for selling beer, I know we're all doomed.

It's hard to believe that grumpy northerners would slag a team off for selling beer...unless, of course, it was a bit pricey.

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toronto have been going 3 years and the so called novelty hasn’t worn off yet, when do you expect it will happen? 

A year or two.

After the initial hype it will become apparent that a team which has to import all c.25 players (and make regular 7000-mile round trips) will struggle to make an impact under the Super League salary cap. 

[frank]

14 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

It may be part of the future but if I have any nagging doubts it’s that the whole thing is a bit daft and that Toronto will be a novelty act (which will wear off pretty fast), particularly if they don’t produce any players.

Tend to agree with your central point that expansion without expanding the player base isn’t true expansion. But I’d be happy for Super League to suck it and see if all the risk lies at Toronto’s door.

IN regard to to player base expansion, just how many clubs throughout the Leagues are doing this?