Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[TboneFromTO]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

A year or two.

After the initial hype it will become apparent that a team which has to import all c.25 players (and make regular 7000-mile round trips) will struggle to make an impact under the Super League salary cap. 

Toronto fans don't care where the players come from.  Canada is a multi cultural country built on immigration.  There no Canadians on the blue jays or raptors and they're doing great.  

You play for Toronto you become a Torontonian (once you learn not to pronounce the second t)

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, frank said:

IN regard to to player base expansion, just how many clubs throughout the Leagues are doing this?

You’ve got me there, Frank.

Aren’t rugby league players born at 18 and bought from a farm?

[Chamey]

16 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toronto have been going 3 years and the so called novelty hasn’t worn off yet, when do you expect it will happen? 

When they start losing regularly would be the possible response. I don't agree with the logic (I reckon that the fanbase is pretty robust because of the general experience), but can see why it may be a concern.

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

A year or two.

After the initial hype it will become apparent that a team which has to import all c.25 players (and make regular 7000-mile round trips) will struggle to make an impact under the Super League salary cap. 

The salary cap is disintegrating though MOK. Dispensations left right and centre and ways around it.

[Man of Kent]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The salary cap is disintegrating though MOK. Dispensations left right and centre and ways around it.

There’s still a cap and they’ve still got to have 25-30 players imported players on the books every year with no yoof coming through.

Will the culture be right? Might they end up like Catalans, which seems a bit of a holiday camp?

[Dave T]

I actually think that while there will be some challenges as they play better teams, they will also get some decent away followings and the atmosphere and experience will improve. They will have money and be able to make some decent signings, so no reason why they cant compete and the fans will probably appreciate the tight games more than some of the processions they currently get.

[fighting irish]

44 minutes ago, frank said:

IN regard to to player base expansion, just how many clubs throughout the Leagues are doing this?

Ha ha don't ask awkward questions, lol.

The answer is certainly not all of them and no matter how many are doing it, its not enough.

They're not doing any of the other things that they should be doing that Toronto are doing either. 

[Tommygilf]

10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Tommy, I consider you to be one of the more level headed contributors to these pages and I would not have expected such a response from yourself, agreed that Mr Parksider keeps elaborating the same points but the initial one's concerning Mr Perez and his presentation to the British game and British public regarding TV deals and Player production are entirely correct, those who were interested could both read and and see the video evidence, it still exists.

Hi Harry, equally I don't see you as someone who is blindly against expansion and I can appreciate that there are often some wild suggestions thrown around - this thread included. 

My comment was made largely in tongue-in-cheek fashion, however it cannot have escaped you that less and less people interact with Parksider now. In my view at least that is entirely down to their posting style and persona. The general experience of most on the forum is that there is virtually no point in dissecting Parksider's often very long and repetitive posts and replying to them thoughtfully as any subsequent "debate" is entirely one sided.

I don't know why Mr Parksider is like this. I don't know whether its a sadistic desire to be right or a myopic view on the future of the game. I wouldn't go as far as to call it trolling but it has to be said I don't think I have seen, in over 3 years on this forum, Parky comment on any thread in a way that was not connected to Toronto in anyway. Its become so predictable that there are often posts pre-empting a Parky post in a thread.

Whatever it is Mr Parksider must have realised by now that they aren't winning many over to their side and their approach to both the subject matter and other forum users. Insinuating everyone who doesn't instinctively share your position is stupid or blinded has never worked in any debate. Its perhaps even more annoying when debating over 3 year old quotes.

[Tommygilf]

11 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

They will always be as Mr Parksider describes a group of foreigners dressed up as Canadians, and the same has to be said about the other so called to be 'expansion' teams from that continent, which brings it around nicely to the TV deal, Mr Perez also expressed that to gain a NA TV deal, multiple teams as many as 6 would be required to entice the broadcasters to put their hands in their pockets. Six new teams wanting to perform at the highest level in the British game ain't going to happen, the game in the UK cannot provide *enough player's for 12 teams without 90'ish Southern Hemisphere players being employed and the quality of a lot of those surplus to NRL requirement antipodeans is somewhat to be desired, if we are to spread out the available talent and employ more of the less than average Aussie, Kiwi and Islanders to furnish 6 more teams can you imagine the drop in quality, which would in turn drop attendances and more than likely Pay TV subscribers over here.

People from here who are wanting to establish the NA 'expansion' programme as soon as possible with the birth of multiple teams are either incapable of understanding the rudiments or are being culpably ignorant of the possible consequences, a couple of catagories that I would not place you in Tommy, albeit there are many who pen these pageson who I believe fit snuggly with those descriptions.

(I thought I'd reply to the rest separately)

I would say that Elstone has made it clear in his recent comments that SL expansion is back on the agenda. London using a majority championship squad and Salford getting 3rd on a massively reduced budget will have undoubtedly played into this. I'd also say that the loosening of the salary cap to allow Marquee signings have enabled the calibre of signings coming to SL to increase in quality as the clubs and owners with money have been in part cut from the leash of a low salary cap. Players like Blake Austin, Kevin Naqiama, Konrad Hurrell, Trent Merrin are just some of the examples of the world class players that are coming over from the NRL whilst they are in their prime. 

I don't think we're going to see a vast number of North American franchises popping up immediately for 2 reasons.

1. This is not a co-ordinated or planned strategy by the RFL. Before Eric Perez, there was no plan from the RFL or SL to explore the Canadian/US market. Thus I think they are still figuring out what is going on with the whole thing and don't really know what the aim really is.

2. Toronto aren't even in SL yet. That we have a fairly solid set-up coming from Ottawa in the near future is amazing to me considering they won't have seen how Toronto will fare in the top flight (or have even got there). However, if a stage is reached where TWP and Ottawa are thriving members of the RL scene then an influx might be on the way - the benefits and challenges that would bring could be beyond what many in RL can deal with! The whole foreigners dressed up as Canadians is not an issue for me, I appreciate it will take time for Canadians to get up to speed with the game and believe the Toronto players are as passionate about playing for their team as any other. Whilst I appreciate the nature of rugby means that having a core of players with an emotional attachment to the team helps - my own club has benefitted hugely from this - it is not the only way of doing things and in effectively virgin territory for the game should not be expected.

I guess what I would have to say Harry is that my optimism and hope for TWP ultimately results from the fact I could now go to the other side of the Atlantic and find a community, relatively small at the moment yes, but growing, that enjoys the game that you and I love and have seen denigrated for years by all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons. The idea that I could have a chat with someone in a pub south of Sheffield about the comings and goings in RL still seems a bit mad, the fact that that could be a possibility in Toronto seems incredulous. I'm glad to see a good news story for the game and a future for the game that doesn't mean a reducing amount of interest.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

There’s still a cap and they’ve still got to have 25-30 players imported players on the books every year with no yoof coming through.

Will the culture be right? Might they end up like Catalans, which seems a bit of a holiday camp?

On paper though that makes them the same as the side who finished third in SL doesn't it

On culture, I think that will be something for them to work out. Having Brian Mac there will undoubtedly help and their recruitment will have to focus on the players 'off the pitch' even more than at other clubs.

[The Parksider]

9 hours ago, Dave T said:

Reading Elstone's comments. It reads as though they are having discussions with the RFL rather than TWP which is odd. 

You really need to read a lot more up then you'd avoid getting stuff wrong all the time. If you had read the RL press you'd know the RFL admitted TWP to their competition as guests. TWP never did what Toulouse did which was invite top SL bosses over to France to discuss the prospects of one day getting into Superleague, and discussing what was needed. The SL bosses said they needed to produce SL quality French players and find a paying French TV deal. Unlike you, Perez had done his homework and he promised to deliver these things to the game here but he failed miserably. What TWP have therefore avoided doing is talking to Superleague because they know Superleague will say "Not until you  bring us TV deals and Players" - so they have used the tactic of outspending all other clubs to win the promotion spot, which then puts Superleague under very great pressure to admit them. Superleague will get a hammering in the press if TWP win the Play off and don't go up, because few understand they are a phoney club .........It's a cheap and dirty trick.

7 hours ago, TIWIT said:

RFL is involved because if TWP are denied their place (assuming they earn it on field) then while Super League will look foolish - it is the RFL who must deal with ramifications of: TWP ceasing to exist almost immediately, the end of the Ottawa and NYC expansion dreams, and the cost of the inevitable lawsuits that will start flying.

For once you partly get it. TWP win the play offs knowing if SL reject them SL will look foolish to the thousands of fans still to find out TWP are a wholly Australian owned  English club based in Manchester. That's a nasty cheap trick.

However if TWP and Ottawa pack it in if TWP do not go up as you suggest what does that say to their alleged commitment to grow the game itself? It clearly says they can't be bothered and just wanted to buy SL places. (not "earn" as you say)

Forget the lawsuits now will you. These clubs are guests only and there are no contractual obligations on RFL or SL.

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

A year or two.After the initial hype it will become apparent that a team which has to import all c.25 players (and make regular 7000-mile round trips) will struggle to make an impact under the Super League salary cap. 

The hype disappeared when people on here started to doubt the crowd figures and started pointing out how many "fans" got free tickets and once inside Lamport spent most of their time at the bar. It's only the TWP fans on here who are boasting how enthusiastic TWP's crowds are for the game. TWP have won something like all but three of their home games this last 3 seasons but if they start losing regularly in Superleague will many "fans" leave the bar at all?

And sadly we know how even rich clubs struggle when their player rosters are full of players who have only signed for the money, and sadly we see that at Les Catalans all too often. 

P.s. Tommy, if you have a problem then have the manners to debate it, rather than post stuff about me to third parties. Grow up man. 

[Kayakman]

41 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

On paper though that makes them the same as the side who finished third in SL doesn't it

On culture, I think that will be something for them to work out. Having Brian Mac there will undoubtedly help and their recruitment will have to focus on the players 'off the pitch' even more than at other clubs.

Totally correct Tommy.  We don't want any trouble makers over here...simply can't afford to have them with the image we are trying to promote...young, families, law abiding.  There were a few well known problems in between Year1 and Year 2 and I can tell you Argyle has put down the word; "No more trouble makers period...players are to be a good civic example."

[Kayakman]

6 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

You really need to read a lot more up then you'd avoid getting stuff wrong all the time. If you had read the RL press you'd know the RFL admitted TWP to their competition as guests. TWP never did what Toulouse did which was invite top SL bosses over to France to discuss the prospects of one day getting into Superleague, and discussing what was needed. The SL bosses said they needed to produce SL quality French players and find a paying French TV deal. Unlike you, Perez had done his homework and he promised to deliver these things to the game here but he failed miserably. What TWP have therefore avoided doing is talking to Superleague because they know Superleague will say "Not until you  bring us TV deals and Players" - so they have used the tactic of outspending all other clubs to win the promotion spot, which then puts Superleague under very great pressure to admit them. Superleague will get a hammering in the press if TWP win the Play off and don't go up, because few understand they are a phoney club .........It's a cheap and dirty trick.

For once you partly get it. TWP win the play offs knowing if SL reject them SL will look foolish to the thousands of fans still to find out TWP are a wholly Australian owned  English club based in Manchester. That's a nasty cheap trick.

However if TWP and Ottawa pack it in if TWP do not go up as you suggest what does that say to their alleged commitment to grow the game itself? It clearly says they can't be bothered and just wanted to buy SL places. (not "earn" as you say)

Forget the lawsuits now will you. These clubs are guests only and there are no contractual obligations on RFL or SL.

The hype disappeared when people on here started to doubt the crowd figures and started pointing out how many "fans" got free tickets and once inside Lamport spent most of their time at the bar. It's only the TWP fans on here who are boasting how enthusiastic TWP's crowds are for the game. TWP have won something like all but three of their home games this last 3 seasons but if they start losing regularly in Superleague will many "fans" leave the bar at all?

And sadly we know how even rich clubs struggle when their player rosters are full of players who have only signed for the money, and sadly we see that at Les Catalans all too often. 

P.s. Tommy, if you have a problem then have the manners to debate it, rather than post stuff about me to third parties. Grow up man. 

MY GOD PARKY!   You are losing it Man!!!! and starting to embarrass yourself more than a bit...STOP IT!..let it go Man...trust the old Paddle Man...let it go.

[TIWIT]

12 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Forget the lawsuits now will you. These clubs are guests only and there are no contractual obligations on RFL or SL.

Your other points are so laughable they are not worthy of commenting on, but if you think David Argyle and his partners entered the RFL structure (which included Super League at the time) without everything being put down on paper specifying each side's obligations and responsibilities and agreed to by the lawyers representing each side before both sides signed on you are NUTS. No one goes into a multi-million pound business deal like this on just a handshake and some vague promises.

[frank]

2 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Ha ha don't ask awkward questions, lol.

The answer is certainly not all of them and no matter how many are doing it, its not enough.

They're not doing any of the other things that they should be doing that Toronto are doing either. 

That was the point I was getting at.Why all the criticism from certain posters about Toronto not doing that, when the majority of clubs aren't.

[Omott91]

3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

There’s still a cap and they’ve still got to have 25-30 players imported players on the books every year with no yoof coming through.

Will the culture be right? Might they end up like Catalans, which seems a bit of a holiday camp?

You mean the holiday camp that won the Challenge Cup last year? 

[Krzzystuff]

6 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

A year or two.

After the initial hype it will become apparent that a team which has to import all c.25 players (and make regular 7000-mile round trips) will struggle to make an impact under the Super League salary cap. 

Since day one we have been on here saying that home grown players aren't a consideration in NA sports, they are a rare bonus but in reality we want a group of great players representing our team. I was going to say city but fans come from all around.

So maybe the hype dies down for the English fabs of other teams but then again don't you want to come see a team of top players play your team to see who wins? isn't that what sport is all about? You guys do know that the international game is different than the club game right? Best team you can field vs. best team of players from a country (heritage rule aside).

[Krzzystuff]

3 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Your other points are so laughable they are not worthy of commenting on, but if you think David Argyle and his partners entered the RFL structure (which included Super League at the time) without everything being put down on paper specifying each side's obligations and responsibilities and agreed to by the lawyers representing each side before both sides signed on you are NUTS. No one goes into a multi-million pound business deal like this on just a handshake and some vague promises.

DJB sure would like it that way, so hard to get rid of those pesky players last year with legal contracts for high wages...how DARE they expect yo be paid what they are legally entitled to??

The game is littered with owners that have money somehow but no business sense so it likely has happened in the past but I don't expect that to be the case with Argyle & Co.

[Man of Kent]

57 minutes ago, Krzzystuff said:

So maybe the hype dies down for the English fabs of other teams but then again don't you want to come see a team of top players play your team to see who wins? isn't that what sport is all about? You guys do know that the international game is different than the club game right? Best team you can field vs. best team of players from a country (heritage rule aside).

It won’t be a “team of top players” though, will it. They may sign a few names/out of contract NRL players but they’ll still need another circa 25 transients and stay under the salary cap. 

As for ‘international game’, that’s precisely what I mean about novelty act.

At first they’ll be seen here as almost impossibly glamorous but the novelty will wear off as people realise they are wholly Anglo-Australasian and as Canadian as a tin of Batchelor’s mushy peas.

The lack of away fans will deaden atmosphere and affect gates, and the travel to Toronto and turnaround will come to be seen by clubs as a faff.

I’m keen to see the short-term publicity boost here should Toronto come up but I’m not expecting much beyond that. 

[Toby Chopra]

39 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

 first they’ll be seen here as almost impossibly glamorous but the novelty will wear off as people realise they are wholly Anglo-Australasian and as Canadian as a tin of Batchelor’s mushy peas.

The lack of away fans will deaden atmosphere and affect gates, and the travel to Toronto and turnaround will come to be seen by clubs as a faff.

This is perhaps unintentionally revealing about the entitled, and ultimately lazy, nature of some in British rugby league. 

As a sport, we angrily demand our place at the top table of British sports, bleat on about the unfair barriers we face and how sponsors and broadcasters short change us. 

And yet, when it's suggested that in pursuit of this we do some of the things that LITERALLY EVERY OTHER MAJOR SPORT has - like internationalise our player base, or get on a plane one in a while - suddenly it's all too much to ask. Too much of a faff. 

We can't have it both ways. We can either make the effort to be a modern 21st century sport on the same level as our peers and - potentially - reap some of the same benefits. 

Or we can not make the effort. The latter is fine if that's what the sport chooses, but rugby league doesn't have a god given right to exist if it can't be bothered to engage with the world it exists in. 

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Harry a little bird speaks in your wear and says, "SL is waiting to see who is in the Championship final..if it is Toulouse and Toronto an announcement will be made after the match that BOTH finalists are being accepted into an expanded SL (Toulouse with a % of central funding and Toronto with none;  each have to get their own TV deal).

If Toulouse is not in the final then just  the winner will go up (probably Toronto with conditions)."

Tweet...tweet...Hello little birdy.

Toronto Wolfpack v Featherstone Rovers in the Final.

Featherstone Rovers Championship Grand Final Winners 2019.

Featherstone Rovers promoted to Super League 2020 season.

[RayCee]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Toronto Wolfpack v Featherstone Rovers in the Final.

Featherstone Rovers Championship Grand Final Winners 2019.

Featherstone Rovers promoted to Super League 2020 season.

Wake up Harry, wake up. You've been dreaming. 

[frank]

2 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

This is perhaps unintentionally revealing about the entitled, and ultimately lazy, nature of some in British rugby league. 

As a sport, we angrily demand our place at the top table of British sports, bleat on about the unfair barriers we face and how sponsors and broadcasters short change us. 

And yet, when it's suggested that in pursuit of this we do some of the things that LITERALLY EVERY OTHER MAJOR SPORT has - like internationalise our player base, or get on a plane one in a while - suddenly it's all too much to ask. Too much of a faff. 

We can't have it both ways. We can either make the effort to be a modern 21st century sport on the same level as our peers and - potentially - reap some of the same benefits. 

Or we can not make the effort. The latter is fine if that's what the sport chooses, but rugby league doesn't have a god given right to exist if it can't be bothered to engage with the world it exists in. 

Excellent post Toby.

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, Loup said:

 

Blue Jays (b 1977) and Raptors (b 1995) are the only Canadian-based teams in the respective top-tier US sports leagues. Neither club goes back to the dawn of time, yet their presence has led to a huge rise in standard of Canadian-born players across the board. Correct, there are no Canadian-born players in the Raptors and possibly one relief pitcher currently on the Jays. But today there are Canadian lads playing for other teams in the NBA and MLB as a direct result of the top-down growth in the sport. Put another way, the sports became part of the culture of the area as the result of the clubs existing.

The clubs don't recruit Canadian-born players to use them as a badge - they recruit the players they want on the team. The Raptors team that won the NBA Championship this year includes players from all over the map.

I have much to learn about rugby league, but I truly don't understand the zero-sum game attitude to "not enough players" and "good English lads dressed up in Canadian jerseys". More teams = bigger rosters, especially if the wages are increasing to full-time levels = more lads getting the chance to play = more kids staying interested through school and clubs. If there were more opportunity to play full-time, wouldn't more of the part-time players be able to step up?

And when did Harry Stottle turn into Parky's wingman?

Harry here Loup, I ain't Mr Parksiders Flight Lieutenant, you have not been reading me long enough if you believe that to be the case.

Please be honest I will accept your reply as such, before these two local Toronto teams came into existence was Basketball and Baseball popular in your part of the World, did it have regular TV coverage, was the population au fair with both sports, and were the games played by schools, colleges, amatuer clubs etc, the reason that I ask is that this comparison with other Toronto professional sports and Rugby League keeps getting mentioned I am just wondering if at the birth of these professional sporting clubs, the conditions were the same?.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, TIWIT said:

RFL is involved because if TWP are denied their place (assuming they earn it on field) then while Super League will look foolish - which doesn't seem to bother them much - it is the RFL who must deal with ramifications of: TWP ceasing to exist almost immediately, the end of the Ottawa and NYC expansion dreams, and the cost of the inevitable lawsuits that will start flying.

 

What lawsuits, did the RFL not lose all rights to SL matters when the split came on who controls who and SL set up their own controlling body in 2018.