Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Tommygilf]

On 20/09/2019 at 00:17, The Parksider said:

And yet somehow they aren't even been given a mention as the posts fill up the pages of this thread all trying to convince us TWP have some sort of substance which they don't. It's one man's wallet in a Rugby Union continent that lost the RL world cup through apathy towards RL. 

The fact that you ignored 90% of my post and then reiterated your opinion of the Wolfpack and the world that we've all heard a billion times sums up my point beautifully. I recall that you used to post far more often, perhaps the lack of success your 'persuasion techniques' are having is slowly dawning on you.

[Adelaide Tiger]

On 20/09/2019 at 16:43, Harry Stottle said:

It will never be a level playing field if TWP are involved, they will either benefit or have it harder than other teams simply because of the distance involved, e.g. will they be excused short turnarounds as other teams when they have to put up with Thursday night games, what about the teams drawn away to them in the loopy fixtures who have to visit Toronto twice, conversely if they have to play some 'home' games over here the teams who play them will not have to travel to Toronto, how will the other teams who don't get that benefit feel? And what if a teams fixtures falls so they are in France one week and the following week in Canada or vice a versa, as could possibly happen with Fev or York in the next few weeks.

Ok using your own argument I assume you would not object if Toronto play all their early season games in places that are the same distance from Manchester that Toronto is.

Toronto to Manchester is 5491 kms.  So away games could be:

Baghdad which is 5578 kms from Manchester

Timbuktu which is 6110 kms from Manchester

Tehran which is 5836 kms from Manchester 

Omar Sharifs Oasis and Deli, Sahara Desert 5100 kms from Manchester (need 52 seater coach from nearest airport)

Any comments on my choices?

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Ok using your own argument I assume you would not object if Toronto play all their early season games in places that are the same distance from Manchester that Toronto is.

Toronto to Manchester is 5491 kms.  So away games could be:

Baghdad which is 5578 kms from Manchester

Timbuktu which is 6110 kms from Manchester

Tehran which is 5836 kms from Manchester 

Omar Sharifs Oasis and Deli, Sahara Desert 5100 kms from Manchester (need 52 seater coach from nearest airport)

Any comments on my choices?

Not necessary as they've already agreed my fixture list , just had the email from Rob

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

I agree. Yes it may not be planned, yes it may not be what some people want in an ideal world. However when a good thing comes along, cost free and with no risk to the game, then the game needs to run with it. To do what Toronto have done so far would have easily cost the game a small fortune that the game doesn't have. I'd say £10 million+ easily. Ditto with Ottawa if that comes off.

What possible growth is there on the horizon from within the UK? None as far as I can see. There has been little change on that front since I first started watching the game. The game still suffers from the same issues it always has, a lack of money and a genuine image problem with downright snobbery from some in the way some perceive the game. I certainly don't see those obstacles and barriers in Canada and I think that big clubs in America can change that situation and perception in the UK. Toronto is everything Super League should be.

Yes the North East and Newcastle is showing great grass roots growth but are far from a Super League big club offering. York are doing some great stuff as a club too. Top down expansion doesn't stop that growth and indeed should supplement it by giving youngsters a big, glamorous competition to aspire to. I have never understood the whole top down v bottom up expansion debate, we can and should be doing both, especially when others are footing the bill.

Agree with all of that.

But to continue playing Devils advocate, we are making a bit of an assumption that it would be free. Last week when there was talk about conditions the reaction was hysterical and people talking about suing and takeovers.

Like you, if there is no financial cost then it looks like a no-brainer. But if it costs the game an additional million quid a year in costs, and £1.8m of the central funding that currently goes to the British game, then that is a different position. I'm still  not saying it would be a bad investment, but if serious mi ey is being invested by SLE and its clubs then a more considered decision needs to be taken.

To be ultra challenging, there is an argument that we have spent £20m on Catalans now - we should be able to quantify what return that investment has seen. In cold hard cash. I'm happy with being in for the long haul and this being about changing perceptions of the game and developing new markets that take decades, but I can also understand people wanting a return more quickly.

[Adelaide Tiger]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Not necessary as they've already agreed my fixture list , just had the email from Rob

Why didn’t you tell me!

It would have saved me the trouble of using my slide rule and sextant to work out those distances.

[TboneFromTO]

With all the talk about Toronto having home games in the UK while in super League I shall riddle you all this:

If Toronto have no fans, and the "away team" bring in the "thousands" of fans some do, then how is that a Toronto advantage?

I thought the home advantage was primarily from the crowd boost....

[TboneFromTO]

2 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Why didn’t you tell me!

It would have saved me the trouble of using my slide rule and sextant to work out those distances.

Hey, using a slide rule and sextant should never be seen as trouble!

[GUBRATS]

12 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Why didn’t you tell me!

It would have saved me the trouble of using my slide rule and sextant to work out those distances.

I just did

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

With all the talk about Toronto having home games in the UK while in super League I shall riddle you all this:

If Toronto have no fans, and the "away team" bring in the "thousands" of fans some do, then how is that a Toronto advantage?

I thought the home advantage was primarily from the crowd boost....

I'd be surprised if that was the claim. I'd have thought the extensive travel, change in training routine and living arrangements were the bigger issues here. 

[Adelaide Tiger]

On 20/09/2019 at 18:11, Harry Stottle said:

When do you suggest Loup, do you believe it should happen before TWP have prooved to be a good fit with the British game? I have used the term 'prototype' previously to describe TWP and I still consider that both the club themselves and the game over here are still on a learning curve with the functionality of it all.

In my world 'prototypes' are prooven first before the commodity goes into full production, that way a lot of effort, time and expense can be avoided should the 'prototype' for whatever reason fails.

This argument has been presented regularly on this matter.  

My view is that if I wanted to start a business back in my home town of Cas but it was obvious that the required skills were non existent in the town (no jokes please!) then I would not wait 10 or 20 years until people had those skills.

So I would have two options.  Either walk away or bring in people with those skills and over time local people could be taught those skills.

I would go for option 2 which is what Toronto WP are doing.

[TboneFromTO]

16 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'd be surprised if that was the claim. I'd have thought the extensive travel, change in training routine and living arrangements were the bigger issues here. 

Not the biggest grumble I agree but it comes up when someone mentions their early season games in the uk as happened this year

Travel is part of sporting culture in NA though, something that appears to be lost in translation. The Toronto Maple leafs will play in Toronto one night, and 2 days later play again in San Jose California (4300ish km and 3 time zones away)

Brits don't get it, NA don't get why the Brits don't get it

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

Not the biggest grumble I agree but it comes up when someone mentions their early season games in the uk as happened this year

Travel is part of sporting culture in NA though, something that appears to be lost in translation. The Toronto Maple leafs will play in Toronto one night, and 2 days later play again in San Jose California (4300ish km and 3 time zones away)

Brits don't get it, NA don't get why the Brits don't get i

Yes buts that's ice hockey 

[TheReaper]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Yes buts that's ice hockey 

And basketball,  and baseball. 

[TboneFromTO]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes buts that's ice hockey 

Surely you are not trying to imply ice hockey is not a physically and mentally demanding sport.  I selected it from other sports because it has a higher injury rate then rugby league,

 

[The Dude]

4 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

Surely you are not trying to imply ice hockey is not a physically and mentally demanding sport.  I selected it from other sports because it has a higher injury rate then rugby league,

 

yea playing 3-4 times a week all over the US and Canada is not physically or mentally demanding.

[GUBRATS]

38 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

And basketball,  and baseball. 

Exactly 

[TboneFromTO]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Exactly 

Ice hockey is just about as demanding as rugby. And the bleacher report agrees

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/832927-what-is-the-worlds-toughest-sport#slide7

Number 4 and 5

[Manxmanc]

2 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

Ice hockey is just about as demanding as rugby. And the bleacher report agrees

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/832927-what-is-the-worlds-toughest-sport#slide7

Number 4 and 5

There's no argument that hockey and RL are tough sports; it's just that the article clearly refers to rugby union, even though it mentions that rugby was considered on a cross-code basis.

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

Ice hockey is just about as demanding as rugby. And the bleacher report agrees

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/832927-what-is-the-worlds-toughest-sport#slide7

Number 4 and 5

Yes because they play less time , they have more interchanges , they play on a smaller area and have longer breaks , and it's on slidy skates 

[Manxmanc]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes because they play less time , they have more interchanges , they play on a smaller area and have longer breaks , and it's on slidy skates 

Ahaah...if they had to wear training shoes...

[TboneFromTO]

6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes because they play less time , they have more interchanges , they play on a smaller area and have longer breaks , and it's on slidy skates 

You just proved that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Ice skating is more physically demanding then running

Which the smaller area requires more dead stops and starts 

If they didn't have the rolling interchanges the sport would be much slower but it's played at a sprint pace the whole match because of it

And don't get me started on the fighting

 

[Loup]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

In the Championship(s) the teams who visited TWP in the main got to Canada as late as possible and departed on the first available flights probably because part time player's were required to get back to their 'proper' jobs. Season 1 (League 1) and 2 (Championship), visiting teams flew in on Thursday (left around noon, arrived 3 p.m. local time), trained on Friday (or went to Niagara Falls), played on Saturday, flew home on Sunday night, arrived Monday morning local time. This season, teams were offered the choice of travel times and most if not all chose to fly home on Saturday right after the game, because they could get a direct flight into Manchester whereas the Sunday Air Transat flight goes into Glasgow. Understandable. However it meant the kick off got pulled up from our usual Saturday at 4 p.m. to a less fan-friendly 1 p.m. so that our guests could get to the airport in time.

Travel dates have had to follow Air Transat schedules - currently, they fly four times a week from Manchester to Toronto, so there isn't a flight on Wednesdays. Not sure if there are more in mid-summer. As Air Transat has recently been acquired by Air Canada, the schedules may change or even become more flexible, but those arrangements have to be renegotiated for next season, so who knows at this point. Also, SL schedules may not allow TWP to play regular season games exclusively on Saturdays, so this is another moving part.

That will not apply to the full time status of the SL teams, if they are to play on a Saturday or maybe even a Sunday I should imagine that they would want to prepare properly for the game they are travelling to compete in, and that includes not just the player's but all those involved in the normal preperation the match day personnel, so I would say they would require one day outbound travelling, two days training/preperation, match day itself, one day recovery/treatment room/rubbing down, recuperation exercising before the flight, and one day return travel. Or they could fly home right after the game. Seems the away players much prefer it. If teams want an extra day in Toronto for recovery and recuperation (or sightseeing, which is more likely to happen), they can pay for it themselves.

Out of interest, what is the schedule when SL teams travel to Catalans? I understand there's no jet lag, but still a fair few hours of travel. Do they get two days to train and prepare as well as match day and a day to recuperate when they travel to France?

Even if they ditched the last day and flew home the day after the game that would still be a period of 4 nights hotels and subsistence that requires paying for, personally did a lot of work away from home and I also had lads working for me who also had to stay away and for that inconvenience I always instructed that they should not expect anything substandard to being as comfortable as they would if they were still at home, in that I would not expect SL teams and nessacary match day personnel to be anything other than in comfortable surroundings Remember that, for three seasons now, Wolfpack players have stayed in the same standard of student accommodation as the visiting teams are offered. When students go back to college, the team is moved to different accommodation. There was a lot of hysteria from a certain visiting club about staying in "dormitories", which was rubbish. The student digs are quite comfortable and Wolfpack players don't seem to be moaning about it. No doubt they come up with their own arrangements when their families visit (which most do, sometimes for weeks at a time. We've met quite a few of the wives/girlfriends and kids during the season, all enjoying their visits.) Be interesting to see where TWP house their own players, if indeed they are admitted to Super League.

I do not think it unreasonable for a SL team to want to prepare properly and adequately for any fixture completely agree and spending 4 nights away (or 3 nights, all depending on available flights) in a good standard class of accomodation is required to do such, do I think the individual clubs should bore the cost, no I don't, the 'handout' 1.85M that TWP would be payed, should be put in a fund to cover clubs costs, in going over there, but they still need to pay their way, so it is imperative that they get a TV deal to put into the pot. As long as the extra 185,000 quid (2 million / 11) that each team would get from dividing up TWP's share of the Sky money is allocated to fund flights and accommodation. The rumours seem to be that TWP is being asked to pay for flights and accommodation in addition to not receiving 2.1 million from the SKY money. That just feels like gouging.

 

[CanadianRugger]

30 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes because they play less time , they have more interchanges , they play on a smaller area and have longer breaks , and it's on slidy skates 

You probably can't even skate .  The interchanges are because ice hockey is mostly anaerobic meaning your body is gassed after 1 min of skating 100%.

Ice Hockey is a far more challenging sport than rugby of either code and it takes years of practice to become even somewhat decent at the sport and the skills required to play it.  Which is why you will never see a Rugby Player or any other football code cross over to ice hockey but there have been a number of successful Ice Hockey players that are mutlisport athletes.

Lionel Conacher and Carl Voss have their names on both the Grey Cup and the Stanley Cup.  

[Gooleboy]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

No, I don't think so, what do you think and why Gooleboy?

Because I think those in charge of the SL are so selfish and arrogant  they don't want smaller Clubs in their League, and getting their share or more of the Sky money is the be all and end all. 

[Kayakman]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

The last post got me considering how long SL teams would visit Canada for.

In the Championship(s) the teams who visited TWP in the main got to Canada as late as possible and departed on the first available flights probably because part time player's were required to get back to their 'proper' jobs.

That will not apply to the full time status of the SL teams, if they are to play on a Saturday or maybe even a Sunday I should imagine that they would want to prepare properly for the game they are travelling to compete in, and that includes not just the player's but all those involved in the normal preperation the match day personnel, so I would say they would require one day outbound travelling, two days training/preperation, match day itself, one day recovery/treatment room/rubbing down, recuperation exercising before the flight, and one day return travel. Even if they ditched the last day and flew home the day after the game that would still be a period of 4 nights hotels and subsistence that requires paying for, personally did a lot of work away from home and I also had lads working for me who also had to stay away and for that inconvenience I always instructed that they should not expect anything substandard to being as comfortable as they would if they were still at home, in that I would not expect SL teams and nessacary match day personnel to be anything other than in comfortable surroundings, even if the flights are payed for there will be substantial costs to a club fir the time they are away, costs they would not encounter normally, and if they have to do that x2 to accommodate the loopy fixtures, or maybe 3 times in the event of cup ties, could even be 4 times if TWP are as successful as K'man expects and they reach the play-offs, then and I ask this loosely, who should finance it?

I do not think it unreasonable for a SL team to want to prepare properly and adequately for any fixture and spending 4 nights away in a good standard class of accomodation is required to do such, do I think the individual clubs should bore the cost, no I don't, the 'handout' 1.85M that TWP would be payed, should be put in a fund to cover clubs costs, in going over there, but they still need to pay their way, so it is imperative that they get a TV deal to put into the pot.

There is only so much milk in the udder of a cow Harry...you can keep pulling on the teat but when nothing comes out its time to give the old girl a rest and then you move onto making/mixing chop (you might not know this).  

Then you will get more milk LATER!