Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, Niels said:

I think they are important in any sport here. Certainly rugby league.

In the championship clubs with a large away following, Leigh, Bradford, Featherstone are much appreciated by the chairmen.

That's not to criticise Toronto, who attract a lot of neutral supporters and curious locals.

The financial margins are so narrow that any supporters in addition to home fans are welcomed, whatever the home gate.

It must be the same in Super League. 

 

 

Believe me I've done loads to encourage away support in RL , primarily because it enhances the atmosphere and therefore the match day/night experience , but financially it should not be a consideration , I'd happily ( and have done work at clubs to achieve it ) provide free away transport for away fans to all games even if that meant it was profit neutral 

 

[Niels]

7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Believe me I've done loads to encourage away support in RL , primarily because it enhances the atmosphere and therefore the match day/night experience , but financially it should not be a consideration , I'd happily ( and have done work at clubs to achieve it ) provide free away transport for away fans to all games even if that meant it was profit neutral 

 

Thanks for the reply. It's great you encourage away support. I agree entirely about the atmosphere.

I always thought you were a Leigh supporter so you are successful in your aims- apologies if not.

 

 

[GUBRATS]

15 minutes ago, Niels said:

Thanks for the reply. It's great you encourage away support. I agree entirely about the atmosphere.

I always thought you were a Leigh supporter so you are successful in your aims- apologies if not.

 

 

Yes I am a Leyther , successful ? , Have been , but not always , a bit like sport , you win some , you lose some

I should be in Antalya in a couple of weeks , but booked with Thomas Cook , oops 

[Adelaide Tiger]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Can't imagine the time you have spent looking at maps or googling the distances and I think WHY, but if it amuses you carry on.

Ooh aren’t you the touchy one.  Please accept my humblest apologise for upsetting you by having the temerity to counter your comment.

The logical solution is this -

1. Let Toronto play their 6 loop fixtures at the start of the season in the UK

2.  Therefore they would play 3 home games ‘on the road’ which is only 2 more games than Wigan did last season with their game against Hull in Oz.

3. Let Toronto have away fixtures for games 7 and 8.

4. So that means Toronto’s first home game in Toronto will be around the first week in April.

5. Therefore clubs will only have to visit once during the regular season. 

BTW I appreciate your concern for my health about the time I spent on the IPad checking those distances.  But please be assured that because I have a very good grasp of world geography I first googled the distance to Baghdad and seeing that distance was appropriate it only took a minute or so to enter other cities on a similar arc from Manchester.

P.S. I did make up one of those destinations 

[GUBRATS]

12 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Ooh aren’t you the touchy one.  Please accept my humblest apologise for upsetting you by having the temerity to counter your comment.

The logical solution is this -

1. Let Toronto play their 6 loop fixtures at the start of the season in the UK

2.  Therefore they would play 3 home games ‘on the road’ which is only 2 more games than Wigan did last season with their game against Hull in Oz.

3. Let Toronto have away fixtures for games 7 and 8.

4. So that means Toronto’s first home game in Toronto will be around the first week in April.

5. Therefore clubs will only have to visit once during the regular season. 

BTW I appreciate your concern for my health about the time I spent on the IPad checking those distances.  But please be assured that because I have a very good grasp of world geography I first googled the distance to Baghdad and seeing that distance was appropriate it only took a minute or so to enter other cities on a similar arc from Manchester.

P.S. I did make up one of those destinations 

Oi , are you nicking my Toronto ' structure ' and claiming it as your own ? At least give me the royalties

[The Lad]

The problem with the Toronto wolfpack is the fixtures, you can't have all away games then all home games like seasons past. They need an indoor pitch to host games when the weather is not great as I don't think wigan or st helens will except them having a month of away games knowing they will have a month of home games later down the season.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, The Lad said:

The problem with the Toronto wolfpack is the fixtures, you can't have all away games then all home games like seasons past. They need an indoor pitch to host games when the weather is not great as I don't think wigan or st helens will except them having a month of away games knowing they will have a month of home games later down the season.

Not necessary as Ad Tiger and myself previously has pointed out , play the loops ( 6 ) in the Uk leaving one trip to Canada each , played in 2 home , 2 away evens up the travel issues 

[TIWIT]

4 minutes ago, The Lad said:

The problem with the Toronto wolfpack is the fixtures, you can't have all away games then all home games like seasons past. They need an indoor pitch to host games when the weather is not great as I don't think wigan or st helens will except them having a month of away games knowing they will have a month of home games later down the season.

What does it matter? If Toronto starts out badly playing on the road they could be buried before they start playing at home?

[The Lad]

29 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Not necessary as Ad Tiger and myself previously has pointed out , play the loops ( 6 ) in the Uk leaving one trip to Canada each , played in 2 home , 2 away evens up the travel issues 

You could have a whole debate on whether or not the loop is right or not, but any way you can make 1 week home 1 week away or closest to that for all teams the better.

[The Lad]

31 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

What does it matter? If Toronto starts out badly playing on the road they could be buried before they start playing at home?

Because the closest to 1 week home 1 week away for all teams the fairer it will be, it will be hard to adjust to super league and Toronto may do well but i think they will struggle for the first 2 or 3 seasons (saposing they don't get relogated). Just because they may start out badly does not mean it shouldn't happen.

[The Parksider]

20 hours ago, Damien said:

 To do what Toronto have done so far would have easily cost the game a small fortune that the game doesn't have. I'd say £10 million+ easily. Ditto with Ottawa if that comes off.

What possible growth is there on the horizon from within the UK? None as far as I can see. There has been little change on that front since I first started watching the game. The game still suffers from the same issues it always has, a lack of money and a genuine image problem with downright snobbery from some in the way some perceive the game. I certainly don't see those obstacles and barriers in Canada and I think that big clubs in America can change that situation and perception in the UK. Toronto is everything Super League should be.

Yes the North East and Newcastle is showing great grass roots growth but are far from a Super League big club offering. York are doing some great stuff as a club too. Top down expansion doesn't stop that growth and indeed should supplement it by giving youngsters a big, glamorous competition to aspire to. I have never understood the whole top down v bottom up expansion debate, we can and should be doing both, especially when others are footing the bill.

Toronto have spent £10 Million and what?

Bought a team from here that bases itself in Manchester, that goes over to Toronto pretending to be a Canadian RL club. Locals often get in for free and spend a lot of time in the beer tents, all to satisfy the one Australian man who provided the  £10 Million to foot the bill, money he got no return from .

We've little  growth here as Union has had us hemmed in for decades, but in Canada Union has won the day. They don't play RL in Canada hence TWP have to ship an English team across - can't you get that? Why do you think that's "growth?"

"Toronto is everything Superleague should be"????? What is that then? Is it Ottawa, New York, Vancouver etc all basing themselves in Manchester? Every week three "NA clubs" fly out, for their "home" games whilst three more English teams pretend to be Canadians here playing their "away" games along the M62 in Perez's great Transatlantic dream?

Is this something the great sporting public of Canada will swallow because they "do not care where the players come from?". 

So what, what matters is fans here will care deeply that the game has somehow sold itself out to Perez's madness. How on earth do you manage to imagine that Wakey, Salford, Fartown, HKR, Cas etc will happily accept relegation whilst their squads each transfer wholesale into the Transatlantic circus.

Your demolition of Newcastle is astounding.........

How will RL go in Castleford when their 7,000 fans and local amateurs clubs find out Cas are to be removed from Superleague and their squad transfered wholesale to become "Cas Vegas" RLFC  based in Nevada. Will they be salivating at the thought of it or will they all just walk away in protest. Last time anyone messed with them they staged a sit in on the pitch.

You have your head in the clouds if you think the old Leigh team replacing London in SL is "growth"? How is that growth, it's merely substitution, and the substitution of real RL clubs for phoney ones.

The game here is frightened to death of the alleged bad publicity refusing TWP may bring, people in the game feel they have to be all supportive of this nonsense for fear of being labelled a fervent traditionalist, or being accused of "small time thinking". 

But being all nicey nicey and supportive of TWP only then encourages the next club "New York" and the one after "Ottawa" to step forward to replace Fartown, Wakey and HKR. What happens then? Do Ken Davey, Mike carter   and Neil Hudgell still continue to put their £Millions into the game? Does Adam Pearson welcome the loss of the Hull Derby for Hull.v.Boston? Or Ian Fulton look forward to no derbies with Wakefield?

Danny Lockwood thinks this is all great, perhaps he should go interview a few of the English club bosses who will be standing down for the Transatlantic league, or perhaps go over the the USA, play some Masters games, and interview all the investors that are apparently following on from Argylle? 

Damian, this isn't "expansion" it's "substitution" every NA club into the professional game is an English club out of the professional game, with their rich investors resigning and their fans by the thousand dropping away from the game here, many of them the very people who fund organise coach and support our junior and amateur game.........Why do you think they will carry on with RL here if their clubs are sold out for the Transatlantic dream??

Perez himself said there was no point to TWP being in Superleague on their own

For all those who want an honest open discussion on this whether tucked away on here or whether in open broadcasted or published debates, the question isn't about letting TWP into Superleague, it's about whether a Transatlantic league will work because that IS the debate everyone in the game somehow shies away from whether they are having a debate on here or whether they are commenting on TWP being a breath of fresh air (as opposed to the stale smell of the London Broncos I presume) on mainstream media.

The project was never just TWP replace London.

Next is New York replace Wakefield, next then is Ottawa replace HKR and so on until we have a 12 club Transatlantic League when SKY get dumped for a massive Fox Sports deal negotiated of course by Eric Perez.

The project is to turn Superleague Transatlantic ....go and watch Perez telling Dave Woods this in 1996 on you tube...........    Time all of us in the game faced that and actually discussed it.....

 

[Damien]

Whoosh. As ever points completely ignored to have a fantasy argument and push an agenda. Any quote that Parky is supposedly replying to is just another excuse to do the whole copy and paste script routine, rambling in about nonsense that has been disproven time and again.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

.

The project is to turn Superleague Transatlantic ....go and watch Perez telling Dave Woods this in 1996 on you tube...........    Time all of us in the game faced that and actually discussed it.....

 

The possible dismantaling of the game we have in the UK should this multi club NA excersize comes to fruition is not discussed at all though Parky, albeit I do not blame those good folk of Toronto who having been introduced to the sport in the flesh so to speak have grasped it and want to keep hold of it, that is a given.

What I can't understand is those from these shores who purport to know about the sport and I am not just pointing at the rules of the game or what has happened on the field of play but the wider picture from the grass roots to the very pinnacle of our professional game is any implications are not explicitly stated or not even being considered, it is only the bright lights they see. 

There are those who see only what they want to see and are either blinded by those bright lights or oblivious to any fallout which I as you believe will be detrimental to our sport in the UK, or they just culpably ignore thinking any repercussions can appertain and it will go away in time, it is like someone detecting a lump on their body, it shoud be examined in the full and not left to see what happens, the consequences could be devastating. 

Only the other day Mr Oxford says if Toronto are denied entry to SL he is finished with, in his words the TGG, he does not tell us why it will be so good to the game over here, he is not on his own, those of his ilk of the same disposition have never ever substantiated how multiple new entities from NA will be to the benefit of the game in this country, we have both given many suggestions of why we need to be very cautious in the approach and admittance of new entities.

Expansion or Substitution?, without having the ability to add to a very meagre playing pool  - worldwide - it is to me just substitution, and in this country where our participant resources are very low that will ultimately lead to the demise of teams over here to furnish new clubs over there.

And it goes without saying if through this "expansion" process we happen to lose clubs over here for the purpose of furnashing clubs in NA, clubs over here that can and do actually produce players through their academies to those that with the best will in the world are unable to do the same we will be in big trouble in the not to distant furure, do these people never stop to think why we need to employ circa. 90 overseas players in the UK. 

BUT, I will go further than just the losing clubs over here there are other implications attached that being many of these clubs are the focal points of their communities, and those said communities have amatuer clubs, take away that focal point and in time the amatuer clubs also demise, these amatuer clubs are the organisations that take on the young kiďs and nurture them along to be eventually taken up by the pro clubs for their academies, but if that production line has been put out of commission that will mean less kids coming through the system, those SL clubs who would not be affected can only take so many on, what happens to rest, they will be lost to the game.

I would welcome to be educated why it is essential for the sport to become transatlantic in the near future by those who champion the idea, and I will use the phrase very loosely 'Expansion' and explain to me not just the razzamatazz of "Big City" names but the design and mechanics of how it will all be put together and the workings of it to keep the game going.

I am not in the true sense of the word anti-expansion I would love our game to be a global and thriving commodity, but I am fearful that this basically knee jerk reaction to taking the game to new 'virgin ' territories is being done without a strategic and thoughtful plan of action and implementation. So please all you guy's who see this NA excersize as the saviour of our sport tell me how all the component parts will be put together, as I said I am open to being educated and conviced it is the correct thing to do.

[GUBRATS]

My opinion Harry is the RFL and SL have to decide what they are willing to allow , with regards overseas teams and declare as such , personally it's 2 non European and 4 European for the foreseeable ( 10 years ) future , with a reassessment on a 2 yearly basis 

Then everybody knows where they stand 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

My opinion Harry is the RFL and SL have to decide what they are willing to allow , with regards overseas teams and declare as such , personally it's 2 non European and 4 European for the foreseeable ( 10 years ) future , with a reassessment on a 2 yearly basis 

Then everybody knows where they stand 

With all due respect Gubby, you have not offered anything why it will be advantageous for the UK game to "Expand" (again loosely) in the manner you suggest, give me the positives it will bring and how it will be orchestrated to bring about benefits to both the clubs and the game over here, or are you happy for it to be initiated ad-hoc and hopefully learn as we go along.

I would have thought with your background in the game at boardroom level you would have given a better offering and input than just "My Opinion", that was the whole crux of my post, none of the people who favour "Expansion" posts anything with any clarity, I have given what I consider could be of a reaction of reasonable or probable detrimental consequences to the game over here, I am wanting someone willing to put the positives in place which helps the game as a whole here, protects it and adds to it, it will be good for debate.

So please lets play a game, anybody please:-

I am on the panel of Dragons Den, you are the chief executive of The Transatlantic Rugby League, pitch to me why it would be in my interests to invest in the project. 

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

My opinion Harry is the RFL and SL have to decide what they are willing to allow , with regards overseas teams and declare as such , personally it's 2 non European and 4 European for the foreseeable ( 10 years ) future , with a reassessment on a 2 yearly basis 

Then everybody knows where they stand 

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

With all due respect Gubby, you have not offered anything why it will be advantageous for the UK game to "Expand" (again loosely) in the manner you suggest, give me the positives it will bring and how it will be orchestrated to bring about benefits to both the clubs and the game over here, or are you happy for it to be initiated ad-hoc and hopefully learn as we go along.

I would have thought with your background in the game at boardroom level you would have given a better offering and input than just "My Opinion", that was the whole crux of my post, none of the people who favour "Expansion" posts anything with any clarity, I have given what I consider could be of a reaction of reasonable or probable detrimental consequences to the game over here, I am wanting someone willing to put the positives in place which helps the game as a whole here, protects it and adds to it, it will be good for debate.

So please lets play a game, anybody please:-

I am on the panel of Dragons Den, you are the chief executive of The Transatlantic Rugby League, pitch to me why it would be in my interests to invest in the project. 

In a growing world Harry you grow with it or shrink , similarly you are no doubt aware as you've been ' in business ' that you need to  constantly look for new markets and new customers , I lost my business because as my core product was coming to the end of its life I missed opportunities to change my business from a supply only to a supply and fit one , when I think back it was essentially fear of having to do something new 

So , yes I do think we need to learn as we go along , 2 clubs we can accommodate without too much risk IMO , there isn't any huge financial risk other than to the investors supporting the new clubs , we set the rules , as with most things , let's display some common sense and see where it might take us 

[EssexRL]

6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

I do agree with you. We need an injection of new resource and energy. You can see where that is coming from including Newcastle and York as well as those non U.K. teams. Frankly a lot of the pro/semi pro clubs feel very precarious in terms of money and levels of support. TWP are one of the few things in the game that make me feel positive and I’m a very optimistic soul. 

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

Again just an opinion, I thought you were a buisness man Scubby,  put some flesh on the bones - if you are capable that is. 

Not at all surprised by Damien's emoji, I expect many more from those with nothing positive to offer.

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not at all surprised by Damien's emoji, I expect many more from those with nothing positive to offer.

Because you've gone down the route of being obtuse, posting repetitively and making the thread all about you. As for positivity I am certainly more positive than you, you have consistently been the most negative person on this thread. Sad really as I thought you were a better poster than that.

[Scubby]

14 minutes ago, EssexRL said:

I do agree with you. We need an injection of new resource and energy. You can see where that is coming from including Newcastle and York as well as those non U.K. teams. Frankly a lot of the pro/semi pro clubs feel very precarious in terms of money and levels of support. TWP are one of the few things in the game that make me feel positive and I’m a very optimistic soul. 

Exactly, but Newcastle and York should be streamlined to potentially oust Wakefield (if they don't get their act together). They shouldn't be fighting it out with Toronto, Toulouse, Catalans, Ottawa, New York like some kind of Fifa 2019 customised league. Stop wasting ####ing money and put it into growth.

As Gubrats said, decide what you want e.g. 8-10 UK clubs, 4 (or whatever) overseas clubs for the next 5 years and replace like for like or fill quotas like for like. You can still have P&R if you really want it but it actually needs to make sense!!

The idea that you have Toronto (full time, NA, huge resources), fighting it out with Featherstone (3 clubs in the same city, using players from other clubs on limited resources) - to replace a club that plays on a park field, reads as ridiculous as it is was to write.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

In a growing world Harry you grow with it or shrink , similarly you are no doubt aware as you've been ' in business ' that you need to  constantly look for new markets and new customers , I lost my business because as my core product was coming to the end of its life I missed opportunities to change my business from a supply only to a supply and fit one , when I think back it was essentially fear of having to do something new 

So , yes I do think we need to learn as we go along , 2 clubs we can accommodate without too much risk IMO , there isn't any huge financial risk other than to the investors supporting the new clubs , we set the rules , as with most things , let's display some common sense and see where it might take us 

Good post and common sense. It's a pity a small section of fans just want things to stay the same and even shrink as long as their club is okay.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

In a growing world Harry you grow with it or shrink , similarly you are no doubt aware as you've been ' in business ' that you need to  constantly look for new markets and new customers , I lost my business because as my core product was coming to the end of its life I missed opportunities to change my business from a supply only to a supply and fit one , when I think back it was essentially fear of having to do something new 

So , yes I do think we need to learn as we go along , 2 clubs we can accommodate without too much risk IMO , there isn't any huge financial risk other than to the investors supporting the new clubs , we set the rules , as with most things , let's display some common sense and see where it might take us 

Yes I was in buisness and changed the whole ethos of the company, but it was done on a calculated basis risk free way over a period of time.

I have pointed out what consequential damage I think can accur with a headling dive into so called expansion, nobody refutes that could happen, but also does not offer any alternative.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

On 12/09/2019 at 20:56, Krzzystuff said:

Is that because Toronto typically wins? lol just couldn't help myself, you just hung it out there.

That's an issue Rugby League has in general.  Unlike Soccer games can get very one-side quickly.

Argued for a while we should change the kick return to be the same as the NFL to prevent teams getting rolled over in the first 10.

 

[Scubby]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Again just an opinion, I thought you were a buisness man Scubby,  put some flesh on the bones - if you are capable that is. 

Not at all surprised by Damien's emoji, I expect many more from those with nothing positive to offer.

As a business man, I would ask Toulouse and Toronto exactly how much money has it cost you ####### about trying to weave through a chippy part-time league structure in the UK. Had that money been spent on infrastructure, marketing, player development, outreach etc. - while building towards a SL place in say 2020 or 2021 - what could that have done?

You would then have a UK structure of clubs part-time clubs knowing what they were playing for (e.g. York trying to get promoted to replace Huddersfield or Wakefield) - not wondering who in my squad has a drink driving conviction and needs a day off the building site to play an overseas away game they are going to get thrashed in.