Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I was in buisness and changed the whole ethos of the company, but it was done on a calculated basis risk free way over a period of time.

I have pointed out what consequential damage I think can accur with a headling dive into so called expansion, nobody refutes that could happen, but also does not offer any alternative.

Equally Harry I don't think youve acknowledged the risks of not expanding.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I was in buisness and changed the whole ethos of the company, but it was done on a calculated basis risk free way over a period of time.

I have pointed out what consequential damage I think can accur with a headling dive into so called expansion, nobody refutes that could happen, but also does not offer any alternative.

As I suggest Harry , we set the rules , that is 2 NA teams , as Toronto have done , they take the financial risks , isn't that then done on a calculated basis risk free over a period of time ?

No way am I suggesting ' open door ' to numerous other clubs , although I do believe we have a different strategy with Europe ( France ) where I believe more can be accommodated within the lower tiers as we have seen Toulouse slowly build 

[GUBRATS]

7 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

That's an issue Rugby League has in general.  Unlike Soccer games can get very one-side quickly.

Argued for a while we should change the kick return to be the same as the NFL to prevent teams getting rolled over in the first 10.

 

Agree , it is an obvious rule to apply , so no wonder we haven't

[Harry Stottle]

22 minutes ago, Damien said:

Because you've gone down the route of being obtuse, posting repetitively and making the thread all about you. Sad really as I thought you were a better poster than that.

Damien, you are a cheif exponent of this so called expansion, please tell me in your opinion how it can be rolled out to the best advantage to protect the British game here,  no one it seems can offer anything other than wetting a finger sticking it in the air and waiting to see which way the wind blows. 

Yes I agree it is repetative, but only because no one offers any answers to the questions, have you got any? 

It just seems to me that the band of expansion brother's on these pages believe that sticking together and hoping everything turns out fine is enough of a strategy.

[GUBRATS]

44 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

Ah , well there I disagree , especially with OttAwa , Perez has suggested they are going to " do things differently " , we assume he means potentialy some home produced players , if that's the case then either L1 or Championship to start 

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Damien, you are a cheif exponent of this so called expansion, please tell me in your opinion how it can be rolled out to the best advantage to protect the British game here,  no one it seems can offer anything other than wetting a finger sticking it in the air and waiting to see which way the wind blows. 

Yes I agree it is repetative, but only because no one offers any answers to the questions, have you got any? 

It just seems to me that the band of expansion brother's on these pages believe that sticking together and hoping everything turns out fine is enough of a strategy.

Your suggested plan for growth Harry ? 

[Kayakman]

57 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am on the panel of Dragons Den, you are the chief executive of The Transatlantic Rugby League, pitch to me why it would be in my interests to invest in the project. 

Firstly Harry, I'm a little disappointed with your general negative attitude on things but so be it.  You are coming across as a grumpy old disgruntled man and I know you are better than that.

I'm just about to pull out for the long drive to the game now but just had to reply to your quote.  I actually know someone quite well who turned down a spot as a panelist on the Dragons den....he was approached by them but its not his gig.

How would I sell it to him...simple....its the same problem that IBM faced many years ago...they were the dominant player in the market and they knowingly  chose to ignore software development and put their resources into hardware.  A  little startup called 'Apple' got into  the field of software to fill a vacuum, and we all know how that turned out.  Microsoft also (you might have heard of them).

Its about positive growth and money Harry, you sound like the old executives from IBM who couldn't see past their noses and were afraid of their own shadows.   Think of the Wolfpack and NA expansion like Microsoft and Apple compared to IBM.

RL MUST innovate or die in the modern sports world of today....it has, and currently is, losing market share...and deep inside you know it.  That is what the Naysayers are really afraid of.   You are better than that Harry....now off to the game...I hopefully will read a well thought out response upon my joyful return late tonight.

Signed,

He Who Is Of the Kayak

[Damien]

22 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Damien, you are a cheif exponent of this so called expansion, please tell me in your opinion how it can be rolled out to the best advantage to protect the British game here,  no one it seems can offer anything other than wetting a finger sticking it in the air and waiting to see which way the wind blows. 

Yes I agree it is repetative, but only because no one offers any answers to the questions, have you got any? 

It just seems to me that the band of expansion brother's on these pages believe that sticking together and hoping everything turns out fine is enough of a strategy.

Read the thread. This has been answered time and again. The trouble is you can't take on board the opinion of others and pompously lecture them by saying things like I've forgot more about Rugby League than you'll ever know.

[Harry Stottle]

42 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Equally Harry I don't think youve acknowledged the risks of not expanding.

Tommy, that is the question I keep asking, how can it be done to avert what I believe could be catastrophic consequences for the game here, as I say nobody disputes the picture I paint as a real possibility, and nobody can give me any way of avoiding it happening if the speed that they want this metamorphosis of the British game should happen.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Tommy, that is the question I keep asking, how can it be done to avert what I believe could be catastrophic consequences for the game here, as I say nobody disputes the picture I paint as a real possibility, and nobody can give me any way of avoiding it happening if the speed that they want this metamorphosis of the British game should happen.

The picture you paint ( and indeed what Parky suggests ) is one of multiple NA teams coming in displacing existing heartland clubs , that isn't going to happen , we just set the structure now with one simple meeting and announcement , set the limit and the time scale , if that isn't acceptable to them , then that's the end of it , 

[Damien]

51 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Agree , it is an obvious rule to apply , so no wonder we haven't

We did. It didn't work and meant a team that were struggling couldn't get away from their own line, gave up possession in a bad place and struggled even more.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Damien said:

Read the thread. This has been answered time and again. The trouble is you can't take on board the opinion of others and pompously lecture them by saying things like I've forgot more about Rugby League than you'll ever know.

Pardon, but what has been answered many times Damien, I have not had one suggestion that what I describe could not happen.

I like to know how things work perhaps that is down to my background of being an engineer, what comes back to me in posing the questions I have done is like the guy who was asked how does an automatic car work and his answer was automatically! 

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The picture you paint ( and indeed what Parky suggests ) is one of multiple NA teams coming in displacing existing heartland clubs , that isn't going to happen , we just set the structure now with one simple meeting and announcement , set the limit and the time scale , if that isn't acceptable to them , then that's the end of it , 

Gubby (first of all it's ###### with no game to attend don't you think?), have you not been reading these pages or any others for that matter for the last couple of years on this expansion theme and explicitly on the NA venture, there are those who would open the doors of a NA new venture club every season for the next 5 years, if not sooner.

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Gubby (first of all it's ###### with no game to attend don't you think?), have you not been reading these pages or any others for that matter for the last couple of years on this expansion theme and explicitly on the NA venture, there are those who would open the doors of a NA new venture club every season for the next 5 years, if not sooner.

That is just a strawman argument, no one had said a team every year is possible. At best there may be 4 years between Toronto and Ottawa, if they happen. If we have 1 team every 4 years we'd be doing well. That is 20 years to have 5 additional teams with plenty of years for the game to adapt. Hardly the cataclysmic event you are making out.

[GUBRATS]

45 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Gubby (first of all it's ###### with no game to attend don't you think?), have you not been reading these pages or any others for that matter for the last couple of years on this expansion theme and explicitly on the NA venture, there are those who would open the doors of a NA new venture club every season for the next 5 years, if not sooner.

All Leigh rugbied out to tell the truth Harry , happy to watch as a neutral till next year now 

Yes there are those who would happily see 5/6/7 , but as I suggested , all it needs is the RFL and SL to announce only 2 to be admitted till 2025/30 , then set out what we want/expect to see with regards grass roots in Canada ( first thing would be them having to tie in with the CRL ) and see where we are then ?

If that isn't done , then that's the end of it , but also let's not be totally inflexible with regards the logistics of them operating inside the UK RL structure , I've outlined a way they could operate within SL ATM so why not go with that and see 

[Harry Stottle]

34 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Firstly Harry, I'm a little disappointed with your general negative attitude on things but so be it.  You are coming across as a grumpy old disgruntled man and I know you are better than that.

I'm just about to pull out for the long drive to the game now but just had to reply to your quote.  I actually know someone quite well who turned down a spot as a panelist on the Dragons den....he was approached by them but its not his gig.

How would I sell it to him...simple....its the same problem that IBM faced many years ago...they were the dominant player in the market and they knowingly  chose to ignore software development and put their resources into hardware.  A  little startup called 'Apple' got into  the field of software to fill a vacuum, and we all know how that turned out.  Microsoft also (you might have heard of them).

Its about positive growth and money Harry, you sound like the old executives from IBM who couldn't see past their noses and were afraid of their own shadows.   Think of the Wolfpack and NA expansion like Microsoft and Apple compared to IBM.

RL MUST innovate or die in the modern sports world of today....it has, and currently is, losing market share...and deep inside you know it.  That is what the Naysayers are really afraid of.   You are better than that Harry....now off to the game...I hopefully will read a well thought out response upon my joyful return late tonight.

Signed,

He Who Is Of the Kayak

Let's hit middle ground on my so called negativity, on the theme I describe I call it protectionist, that is concern for the game here, unlike your goodself I am witnessing it unraveling at an alarming pace and I am talking about the thing that we all cannot do without even the teams in your country is the facilities and volunteers in the community game that initially produces those who we all go and pay to watch.

To be totally candid and honest we can do without shipping player's over to other countries especially countries with the best will in the world who will not be able to reciprocate for at least in my opinion 2 at the very least but more like 3 generations in player production, I have been in discussion with you previously saying that your club should be a learning curve for any future new clubs in NA all the questions have not been asked yet in the 3 seasons of existence and most certainly SL have not even posed any questions as yet, patience needs to be adopted as they say it is a virtue.

Answer me this please and it is back to my first paragraph, if we were to go along and let in say 4 new NA clubs how would their player roster's be filled? If as is your club's strategy the majority are from the British game then we simply can't support that, something would have to give and if we're at the expense of some clubs over here then as I explained in my posts it could have a knock on effect all the way down the pyramid and then we all suffer.

I totally agree that Rugby League needs to innovative or die, but I strongly believe that innovation should start on these shores, get rid of those in office who can't and replace them with those who can, we need more kids playing the sport, it is one of the hardest sports to participate in society is getting soft these day's and kids and parents are turning away from it someone needs to make it sexy and attract kids to the game again, and before you say it a carrear in Canada is not the answer yet. Let's imagine the British game is like you in your cabin, held up in the weather, no way you can venture outside and your larder is fast running out, would you put all your eggs in one basket so to speak and eat normally or ration yourself in the realisation that a thaw will come and you can survive? Our clubs are our lifeblood we need them to produce more offspring to carry on the sport, losing them to an entity that has not prooved itself yet on sustainability would be madness, we need to make our whole game stronger from the bottom up then and only then will we be in a position to sustain others.

You ain't pitched anything to your friend to sell the game to him, if he is astute enough to ask where the resources of player's will come from, and questions is the raw material supplier stable and secure all you could do is shrug you shoulders and answer "I don't honestly know, only time will tell"

Anyway I hope you have have had a good day at the game today, I will watch it on TV and discuss with you later.

PS regarding that wager, sorry but I could not possibly nail another teams colours to my avatar, and I will save you the ignominious prospect of having to don the avatar of the club that has taken what you believe to be your rightful place in SL

 

[Harry Stottle]

15 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

All Leigh rugbied out to tell the truth Harry , happy to watch as a neutral till next year now 

Yes there are those who would happily see 5/6/7 , but as I suggested , all it needs is the RFL and SL to announce only 2 to be admitted till 2025/30 , then set out what we want/expect to see with regards grass roots in Canada ( first thing would be them having to tie in with the CRL ) and see where we are then ?

If that isn't done , then that's the end of it , but also let's not be totally inflexible with regards the logistics of them operating inside the UK RL structure , I've outlined a way they could operate within SL ATM so why not go with that and see 

Been on here to long today, her indoors says now that I am not going to the game, we can go out, and what do I do just sit here writing about it, so have to go now, but hopefully get back in due course.

PS, shhh, saying it softly I have to get my timing right to be back for tonights game

[TheReaper]

8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Cas Vegas

Best thing you've posted. Genius! Somebody copyright that!

[Themusician_2]

All I want is for union to be defeated so we can properly grow league in Canada.We are still playing on union terms if you know what I mean. But unfortunately no leadership from Canada recognizes this issue.

[Scubby]

35 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

All I want is for union to be defeated so we can properly grow league in Canada.We are still playing on union terms if you know what I mean. But unfortunately no leadership from Canada recognizes this issue.

Has professional RU in Yorkshire collapsed because Leeds Rhinos are a huge club and dwarf the union equivalent? Do you not see the benefit of building 1 or 2 super clubs in Canada which can grab all the headlines, the corporate $$$ and the TV coverage?

I am the biggest internationalist you can find but I get it on this occasion. I guess NA sports really don't give a #### about a national team when they have everything they want on their doorstep.

[Themusician_2]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

Has professional RU in Yorkshire collapsed because Leeds Rhinos are a huge club and dwarf the union equivalent? Do you not see the benefit of building 1 or 2 super clubs in Canada which can grab all the headlines, the corporate $$$ and the TV coverage?

I am the biggest internationalist you can find. I guess NA sports really don't give a #### about a national team when they have everything they want on their doorstep.

I'm not saying I don't want Toronto but the calls for Canadian talent is just ridiculous considering the state of the grassroots game there.

[Scubby]

2 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

I'm not saying I don't want Toronto but the calls for Canadian talent is just ridiculous considering the state of the grassroots game there.

It is going to be 30 years minimum before we could ever hope to achieve a tier one national side in Canada. However, we could have a couple of Canadian sports clubs in the top 10 RL clubs in the world within 5-10 years. As long as some work is going towards for former, it needs to be full steam on the latter.

[Loup]

53 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

All I want is for union to be defeated so we can properly grow league in Canada.We are still playing on union terms if you know what I mean. But unfortunately no leadership from Canada recognizes this issue.

Are you actually in Canada? Because this post is bonkers.

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, Scubby said:

And these overseas clubs should not be part of P&R into a UK lower league structure. That itself is ridiculous and a complete waste of resources. Ottawa should be preparing to be offered an expanded SL place (or to replace) and existing NA club. York should be battling to replace Wakefield (not Catalans). Toulouse should be joining (or replacing) Catalans etc. We cannot grow when we think like a corner shop operation. 

The trouble is, that weird sort of halfway house in between the traditional structure and franchised leagues like Super Rugby, Pro 14 and all the major North American pro leagues is a contradiction.  Ottawa or New York couldn't replace an existing North American club if the latter has nowhere else to play after all and the gulf between SL and the Élite 1 is so huge and P & R between those leagues is a ridiculous idea.

There doesn't seem to be a good way to blend these high profile big city outfits in with traditional small town clubs, it truly is an attempt to mix oil and water.

[Scubby]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The trouble is, that weird sort of halfway house in between the traditional structure and franchised leagues like Super Rugby, Pro 14 and all the major North American pro leagues is a contradiction.  Ottawa or New York couldn't replace an existing North American club if the latter has nowhere else to play after all and the gulf between SL and the Élite 1 is so huge and P & R between those leagues is a ridiculous idea.

There doesn't seem to be a good way to blend these high profile big city outfits in with traditional small town clubs, it truly is an attempt to mix oil and water.

It is a mess that's what it is. But if Toronto get in, they are probably not getting relegated anytime soon so something will have to give.

What I hate is the moral high ground some clubs in the north of England (and high profile administrators) seem to have towards other clubs (and that includes towards Catalans).