Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Kayakman]

I think Parky is very pro- Union and anti-League.  He wants League to crumble and fold...that is why he hates Toronto so much...in a way its flattering to Toronto and only reinforces its importance to the informed observer.

[Kayakman]

4 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Fair points.

To be fair, Toronto have had decent crowds from scratch. The declared figures are rather optimistic but there’s no doubt a good number of people show up. That’s a level of success. 

Other than that it’s pushing it to say they have been successful all things considered.

 

The declared figures were always very accurate, currently are accurate, and always will be accurate. 

Any proof you ever presented otherwise was quickly shown to be unfounded.

Quit spreading false news.

[Kayakman]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Sometimes people forget that they are a Rugby League club. Let's judge them as that:

Successes:

Getting off the ground from zero.

Signing a strong squad.

Getting new local partners/sponsors involved.

Covering travel with Air Transat

Arranging all travel/accommodation and dealing with issues.

Winning promotion in year 1.

Winning LLS in Yr2, and Yr 3 and favourites to win GF next week.

Branding and media presence around Toronto.

Very good crowds with a great matchday experience.

Lots of publicity across the game.

As an RL team they are out there doing their business, winning games, putting bums on seats, getting sponsors in. That is undoubtedly a success. 

It is disingenuous for anybody to put it down to simply having a rich bloke in charge - we have seen that rich blokes don't always deliver success. I am ok with the questions about some of their local development, but that needs to be put into perspective, we are still in the infancy, I can understand the wait and see attitude to investments that pay off in 10-15 years. Once they are in SL then I think we should be more demanding of this if they are to stay.

I'm not really sure what people really want from them, but they have clearly been a successful startup from scratch. Anybody who points to them not making money is clearly absolutely clueless. 

Glad to see you are finally starting to come around...nice to see.  As mentioned by some previous posters, the clothing /merchandise sales are through the roof also.  I bet they sell more clothing et. al. ,and make more dough off of it, than the Leeds Rhinos did off of theirs in the last fiscal year.....always a huge lineup of eager buyers at the store.

[Dave T]

28 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Glad to see you are finally starting to come around...nice to see.  As mentioned by some previous posters, the clothing /merchandise sales are through the roof also.  I bet they sell more clothing et. al. ,and make more dough off of it, than the Leeds Rhinos did off of theirs in the last fiscal year.....always a huge lineup of eager buyers at the store.

I have never been anything but a fan of TWP.

Their supporters, however...... 

[Krzzystuff]

5 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Fair points.

To be fair, Toronto have had decent crowds from scratch. The declared figures are rather optimistic but there’s no doubt a good number of people show up. That’s a level of success. 

Other than that it’s pushing it to say they have been successful all things considered.

 

if you could help us out by doing an exact count it would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Kayakman]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I have never been anything but a fan of TWP.

Their supporters, however...... 

Don't get mad at us for telling it like it is...don't shoot the messenger Dave.

[Canis Lupus]

5 minutes ago, Krzzystuff said:

if you could help us out by doing an exact count it would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Swinton april 28th 2019  att 9562

[Oxford]

13 hours ago, The Parksider said:

You can insult me if you want,

Thanks I'll be back in the morning then.

19 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I have never been anything but a fan of TWP.

Their supporters, however...... 

Me too!

Amazingly the wife met one on a train the other day, a real life TWP Canuck fan who'd been to see them recently and I think she said was going to see Aston Villa which does prove they may all be a bit weird.

Oh and Parky can't be a yoonion fan. Look, no yawn troll was ever nerdy enough to cut and paste so many things, interpret them so badly and use them as unconnected pieces of evidence for something they don't illustrate at all or say "so there!" so often while waving a copy of League Express in your general direction.

5 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Don't get mad at us for telling it like it is...don't shoot the messenger Dave.

On the other hand some TWP fans are just asking for it!

[Loup]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

Sometimes people forget that they are a Rugby League club. Let's judge them as that:

Successes:

Getting off the ground from zero.

Signing a strong squad.

Getting new local partners/sponsors involved.

Covering travel with Air Transat

Arranging all travel/accommodation and dealing with issues.

Winning promotion in year 1.

Winning LLS in Yr2, and Yr 3 and favourites to win GF next week.

Branding and media presence around Toronto.

Very good crowds with a great matchday experience.

Lots of publicity across the game.

As an RL team they are out there doing their business, winning games, putting bums on seats, getting sponsors in. That is undoubtedly a success. 

 

Also: Boosting traffic on the TRL fan forum to record-breaking levels.

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, Loup said:

Also: Boosting traffic on the TRL fan forum to record-breaking levels.

Do we get a freebie for doing that?  We should at least get a promotion to SL without having to pay a bribe eh?

[Loup]

8 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Do we get a freebie for doing that?  We should at least get a promotion to SL without having to pay a bribe eh?

You get your own cardboard cut-out bleacher chum.

[Loup]

In the meantime and apropos of nothing in particular, and without intending to derail this excellent thread, has there been any update from Robert Elstone on the admissibility of Toronto Wolfpack into Super League, should they win the Grand Final?

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Krzzystuff said:

if you could help us out by doing an exact count it would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Only 59 more than the 9266 declared attendance (ie sales figure, including freebies...) vs. London Broncos in the MPG. 

Curious, eh? 

 

[Krzzystuff]

13 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Only 59 more than the 9266 declared attendance (ie sales figure, including freebies...) vs. London Broncos in the MPG. 

Curious, eh? 

 

yours right, how come we get such high crowds and most of ya don't?

Also fun tidbit, kids 5 and under are free and don't need a ticket so we have been lying about our attendances all this time, they've bene higher if you add the kids.

[TboneFromTO]

58 minutes ago, Loup said:

In the meantime and apropos of nothing in particular, and without intending to derail this excellent thread, has there been any update from Robert Elstone on the admissibility of Toronto Wolfpack into Super League, should they win the Grand Final?

How is that derailing the thread - that is the thread!

 

Also was thinking the same thing today, any updates?  Or do we wait to see who wins this weekend?

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, Loup said:

In the meantime and apropos of nothing in particular, and without intending to derail this excellent thread, has there been any update from Robert Elstone on the admissibility of Toronto Wolfpack into Super League, should they win the Grand Final?

Has there been an update from him on whoever wins the Final?

[Angelic Cynic]

3 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Has there been an update from him on whoever wins the Final?

  Has he ensured the entry,and free passage,of Sun journalists,and Toronto Sun journalists,if he has decided on Anfield again for the Magic Weekend?

[Loup]

1 hour ago, TboneFromTO said:

How is that derailing the thread - that is the thread!

I vow to be clearer in future when deploying sarcasm mode.

[TboneFromTO]

39 minutes ago, Loup said:

I vow to be clearer in future when deploying sarcasm mode.

Oh man. It's not you. It's me. I'm super tired and normally better then that.

I'm ashamed of myself!

[Loup]

3 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

Also was thinking the same thing today, any updates?  Or do we wait to see who wins this weekend?

Okay then, here's Loup's theory.

Toulouse beat Fev this Sunday, and SL have to decide whether to admit one foreign expansion club, or both, or neither. They will announce something before the GF, possibly with added weasel.

Fev beat Toulouse on Sunday, and it will be crickets* until after the GF winner is known.

*NA slang for complete silence

[TboneFromTO]

11 minutes ago, Loup said:

Okay then, here's Loup's theory.

Toulouse beat Fev this Sunday, and SL have to decide whether to admit one foreign expansion club, or both, or neither. They will announce something before the GF, possibly with added weasel.

Fev beat Toulouse on Sunday, and it will be crickets* until after the GF winner is known.

*NA slang for complete silence

Good theory, I still just want to believe this whole controversy is nothing more then nonsense to grab headlines, and stir conversation up about the league.  In my head even Argyle is in on it.

[ChoboMog]

4 hours ago, Loup said:

In the meantime and apropos of nothing in particular, and without intending to derail this excellent thread, has there been any update from Robert Elstone on the admissibility of Toronto Wolfpack into Super League, should they win the Grand Final?

The only update I have seen, from the past week or so, was from Mr Elstone's interview on Rugby AM:

Rugby AM -- Elstone discusses potential Wolfpack promotion...
https://youtu.be/NeuJ3dzgk1A

You can clearly hear him hedging his bets, somewhat, and he does raise some genuine question marks and caveats about the challenges of a trans-Atlantic Super League, from long distance travel to balance of competition.  That said, the impression I am left with is that if TWP win next Saturday, and a few details can be ironed out, then entry into Super League is not only something which will happen, but something which will be promoted to ensure its long-term success; an impression also, thankfully, in line with what Mr Argyle articulated, during his season ticket holder Q&A, on Tuesday.

Quote

If [Toronto Wolfpack] win their Grand Final, then subject to some minimum standards ... they will, I am sure, come into Super League.  If they do, then we've got to embrace it really, really positively; and that's what we will do. -- Robert Elstone (2019)

Caveats notwithstanding, and obviously pending the final score, if this is what Mr Elstone is saying, this week, then I am fully confident Toronto Wolfpack promotion to Super League will happen.  Considering this thread already has five times as many replies than the Rugby AM interview does seconds in its video, and it doesn't feel like this discussion here has gone anywhere but in circles, perhaps we should start to focus on:

1. What the Rugby Football League and Super League can do, organizationally, to ensure the success of a trans-Atlantic Super League; and
2. What the Toronto Wolfpack can do, or what will the team need to do better, in order to ensure their entry into the top tier is not only smooth, but a win for all involved.

Admittedly, this is all still hypothetical, even if the discussion might as well assume suggestions are for the 2020 season.  It simply seems, to me anyway, to be a heck of a lot more useful and practical than out-of-context quotes and aspirations from years past and from those no longer running the show.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, ChoboMog said:

The only update I have seen, from the past week or so, was from Mr Elstone's interview on Rugby AM:

Rugby AM -- Elstone discusses potential Wolfpack promotion...
https://youtu.be/NeuJ3dzgk1A

You can clearly hear him hedging his bets, somewhat, and he does raise some genuine question marks and caveats about the challenges of a trans-Atlantic Super League, from long distance travel to balance of competition.  That said, the impression I am left with is that if TWP win next Saturday, and a few details can be ironed out, then entry into Super League is not only something which will happen, but something which will be promoted to ensure its long-term success; an impression also, thankfully, in line with what Mr Argyle articulated, during his season ticket holder Q&A, on Tuesday.

Caveats notwithstanding, and obviously pending the final score, if this is what Mr Elstone is saying, this week, then I am fully confident Toronto Wolfpack promotion to Super League will happen.  Considering this thread already has five times as many replies than the Rugby AM interview does seconds in its video, and it doesn't feel like this discussion here has gone anywhere but in circles, perhaps we should start to focus on:

1. What the Rugby Football League and Super League can do, organizationally, to ensure the success of a trans-Atlantic Super League; and
2. What the Toronto Wolfpack can do, or what will the team need to do better, in order to ensure their entry into the top tier is not only smooth, but a win for all involved.

Admittedly, this is all still hypothetical, even if the discussion might as well assume suggestions are for the 2020 season.  It simply seems, to me anyway, to be a heck of a lot more useful and practical than out-of-context quotes and aspirations from years past and from those no longer running the show.

He used the word "random" again, seriously????

Toronto is Eric Pérez's home town and it's where he had his marketing business before he decided to give that up for RL, so there was never anything random about Toronto.  Pérez knew the Toronto market far better than any other market, so where else would he ever have put the first club in his vision for the game?  Obviously, nowhere else but Toronto.

Elstone's evident lack of understanding about says a lot about his difficulty (and that of the SL chairmen) in getting his head (and their heads) around what Toronto represents for the game going forward.  Toronto playing in the existing UK structure truly is a mix of oil and water in many ways.

[Big Picture]

Something for the doubters to read: Toronto Wolfpack successful Marketing Campaign proven on-field.

[The Parksider]

17 hours ago, Mushy said:

I’m proud to tell family and friends I am watching Toronto. It changes their perception of our sport positively, and that should translate into more money for the sport as a whole. 

Indeed it does translate to more money for the sport. Obviously TWP's massive losses (c.£10M to date) would need to be reversed as would the similar losses made as Ottawa, New York, Montreal and Vancouver (the latter two Perez recently mentioned had phoned him) will have to spend at similar levels to build their clubs up. I'd guess once these five clubs are all in Superleague to enable a Transatlantic League with adequate North American content to capture the big NATV contract in 10 years time  then the return on the couple of hundred £Million spent to get those five NA clubs up and running to provide adequate content for a  NATV deal will be gradually re-imbursed by the mega Fox Sports TV deal or whoever picks up Rugby League to broadcast it in North America.  

17 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

To be fair, Toronto have had decent crowds from scratch. The declared figures are rather optimistic but there’s no doubt a good number of people show up. That’s a level of success. Other than that it’s pushing it to say they have been successful all things considered.

Your entitled to your opinion but crowds were never the measure of success. Perez himself said the measure of success was getting that Transatlantic deal and developing North American players. So not even Perez would agree with you because those crowds of about 8,000 are inadequate to make TWP solvent. What will make Perez's business model work is the NATV deal. No need to argue with me call Perez if you disagree.

16 hours ago, Dave T said:

Sometimes people forget that they are a Rugby League club. Let's judge them as that

This changing Mr. Perez's goalposts is most tiresome. Perez himself set out success as North American Players in a Transatlantic League with a big North American content and big North American TV deal. I know you never read anything up, and I know you won't let me send you the articles that confirm all the facts, so what can I do but tell you have invented that rubbish. Judge them as an expansion club which you forget they are.

14 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Spending full cap (with marquees) to achieve promotion from the third tier to the first tier of British rugby league is not so much success as inevitability.

It's no real success. Huddersfield once spent far less and won the Championship going unbeaten because what they did spend was enough to have all the best players outside Superleague in their team, thrashing the part timers. Success is getting a Transatlantic league set up and copping an NATV deal as a result. That I think you will agree, is entirely the plan and the measure as per Mr. Perez. 

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

Something for the doubters to read: Toronto Wolfpack successful Marketing Campaign proven on-field.

Your really rather tedious, once again the plan is a transatlantic League, and if successful marketing WAS the measure of success then the massive losses TWP make clearly show their marketing was in no way successful - it was  inadequate, why do you keep peddling this rubbish???

5 hours ago, ChoboMog said:

The only update I have seen, from the past week or so, was from Mr Elstone's interview on Rugby AM:

You can clearly hear him hedging his bets, somewhat, and he does raise some genuine question marks and caveats about the challenges of a trans-Atlantic Super League, from long distance travel to balance of competition.  That said, the impression I am left with is that if TWP win next Saturday, and a few details can be ironed out, then entry into Super League is not only something which will happen, but something which will be promoted to ensure its long-term success....

It doesn't feel like this discussion here has gone anywhere but in circles, perhaps we should start to focus on:

1. What the Rugby Football League and Super League can do to ensure the success of a trans-Atlantic Super League; and

2. What the Toronto Wolfpack can do or need to do better, is not only smooth, but a win for all involved.

Admittedly, this is all still hypothetical,   It simply seems, to me anyway, to be a heck of a lot more useful and practical than out-of-context quotes and aspirations from years past and from those no longer running the show.

I'm sorry but Mr. Perez is still running the show as is Mr. Argyle and the aspirations quoted in 2016 are exactly the same as they are now. Mr. Perez said he went to Ottawa to get the second NA club set up, his colleague Mr, Wilby has the third NA club accepted on principle, and clubs four and five were recently named by Mr. Perez as Montreal (whose interest was noted by Perez three years ago), and Vancouver  who many on here favour despite the extra travel difference.

What TWP need to do better is find SL quality players. Toronto simply can't find a way to do this at all, which sadly means that we only have the players for about 12 professional clubs. That would mean five Superleague clubs from here will have to  drop to the Championship and give up their players so they can go play in North America for at least 10-15 years which is the estimate on here and by Perez for when NA will be developing their own pro players. I think it will be far longer than that. 

I think we should start to focus on how we persuade the poorer SL clubs to step down for the North American clubs. For me Salford should go now, but they are doing far far too well on the pitch to go down other than like a lead baloon. No need for two clubs in Hull so HKR should step down, but I think Hull FC would be vehemently against this as would other clubs who were furious when they were relegated last. Castleford and Wakefield have rubbish grounds so people on here have often called for them to be relegated accordingly maybe that's a start (maybe we can't get away with that as TWP have a rubbish ground). Maybe we can boot out Huddersfield?

I think there is a way we can choose the right clubs to stand down so we can get a competitive transatlantic league in 10 years time. I do however fear resistance and a massive backlash from fans and many owners here getting them TO stand down. In 1996 the plan was to reduce the number of clubs through merger (Hull/HKR, Cas/Wakey/Fev) but fans threatened a riot and threatened to walk away from the game if it went through. I think club owners would also be seriously split, I think Sponsors would all see this as toxic and pull out   

I think the idea of a Transatlantic league is good business in principle, but in practice:-

1. Several Clubs, their owners, sponsors and fans will riot if they threatened with being pushed out of Superleague and their playing rosters sent to America. I suspect if it happens they will walk away in large numbers and this will hit the junior game and player development.

2. By the time such a league can have enough NA content for a TV deal, I worry that the big NA Rugby TV deal will already have gone to MLR as have all the Rugby Players in North America, and has all the investment and interest with USA in the RU world cup, and 150,000 people playing RU there and tens of thousands more organising it and watching it.

3. I fear that there are actually no big investors for RL in North America either? Argyle is an Aussie and Wilby is English and not rich. I've never heard from any NA investors in three years? I fear there are no volunteers to do the hard yards developing the grass roots apart from Bob Jowett and his co-helper.

So I suppose we all need to have a real good think about the practicalities and wake up from the dream??

No point in a Transatlantic League unless we can persuade everyone it's a good thing, and then get over some very tough hurdles indeed Chobomog?? 

Over to you......How are we going to do this??