Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Omott91]

Here is my summation of this thread if it were to be played out in real life

 Parky has set out in his vintage British green Mini with his two mates Harry Stottle and Man of Kent for a roadtrip across the M62 corridor visiting small towns trying to spread the gospel of how twp will bring doom to English rl. As they travel Mok studiously counts the number of people they pass, logging his data into an Excel spreadsheet. He presents his findings to Parky and Harry, who then discuss the merits of these ''real'' rl fans and compare them to the ''phoney'' fans of ''phoney'' clubs. Along their travels they find Gubrats, who is sitting on the fence and refuses to join the roadtrip. The 3 gentleman proceed to the next town where they find Kman with a megaphone in the town square, enthusiastically telling passerbys the benefits of twp reaching super league whilst selling lots of twp branded merchandise. It's been a long day so the 3 gentleman decide to call it a day and head to the closest accommodation. They also stop at the local pub where they find 4 Canadians and a couple Englishman  talking about all the benefits that twp bring to rugby league. They consider joining them but quickly remember that they have already tried to warn people thousands of times before with no success and only to be insulted. Parky reminds his 2 friends that they clearly aren't in reality because they're not talking about things that really matter, like Rugby union.As they head to their hotel rooms, they pass an auditorium where Oxford is providing some comic relief to a large crowd, which Mok subconsciously starts to count.

To be continued when the next inevitable 50 page thread on twp arises.         

[ojx]

I love a thread where I can come back to the forum after 20 pages of posts, and have missed absolutely nothing.

[TIWIT]

14 minutes ago, ojx said:

I love a thread where I can come back to the forum after 20 pages of post, and have missed absolutely nothing.

What goess around comes around. And around. And around. And around. Kinda like Parky's posts.

[ChoboMog]

@ojx, I skipped the first 53 pages, or so, as well, but I've at least tried to keep things on topic, here.  Your frustration is definitely shared.

@Big Picture, I think Elstone's point about Toronto being seemingly pretty "random", and likely not even in the top hundred cities you would have expected a rugby league team makes some sense, at least if someone were positing the idea a half decade ago.  These days, the only thing "random" is the fact that the team has taken off so well, and that public interest has seemingly blossomed out of nothing, to the point where 7000+ fans are to be expected each week and where 9000+ for any important game is standard.  I agree that he is, still, trying to get his head around what Toronto represents, going forward, but I feel like the potential for growth, international exposure, and increased TV/advertising revenue it presents will be impossible for him and the other owners to pass up.

Thankfully, there is nothing "random" about the fans in attendance.  Those of us who are into rugby league are a given; but the vast majority, in my experience, are completely new to the sport, came to a single game and then decided to return again, and again, and again...

@The Parksider, I will do my best to keep my response concise, and I do appreciate the fact you specifically addressed my points:

• While Eric Perez is still listed as "Founder" of the Toronto Wolfpack, in many places, he hasn't had a meaningful role with the team for at least the duration of the 2019 season.  Were he still actively involved with the Toronto Wolfpack, his views might be relevant; however, given that he is not, and the fact he has clearly moved on to Ottawa, there is really little value in referencing his past statements in relation to Toronto.
• I fundamentally disagree, as I am sure many others here would, that viewing expansion as a zero sum game makes sense.  It is a truly flawed calculus.  Not only are there easily players for more that 12 professional clubs, the increased opportunity to turn professional provides significant incentive for youngsters to follow their dream, for those down under to maybe give the Northern Hemisphere a try etc.  Similarly, the single best way to foster new player development, RU-to-RL player conversion, and even the to date mythical NFL/CFL gridiorn-to-RL conversion of players is to have the combination of exposure and opportunity, both of which North American expansion provides.  I won't pretend those benefits will be seen overnight, or even within a year or two; but for anyone thinking long term, here, playing the long game, those benefits are undeniable.
• I don't believe that there will be a need to persuade/select any teams for relegation, amalgamation, and/or relocation for this expansion to work.  This will happen relatively naturally as the circumstances, and the landscape of the RFL's three tiers, change.  Further to the zero sum point, above, as interest grows the RFL ranks and even the number of teams in the SL top tier can also grow.
• Rugby Union definitely has a much stronger foothold in North America, at the amateur level; however, realistically, I've seen a grand total of one advertisement, combined, for the Toronto Arrows and Major League Rugby, in my life.  They are hardly the threat some will make them out to be.  MRL looks bigger in North America, perhaps on paper and after a quick glance at the Wikipedia map; but if a NYC, Boston, or Montreal rugby league team were to emulate the Toronto Wolfpack's business model, I genuinely believe RU/MRL would be pushed aside and the better code would prevail quite easily.
• I don't have any inside information regarding investors.  However, the addition of Bob Hunter to the Toronto Wolfpack management team is potentially a huge deal given his decades of experience dealing with stadium construction [SkyDome, Air Canada Centre (aka Scotiabank Arena), BMO Field, B.C. Place & Vancouver Expo etc) and local government support, as well has having massive connections within the local/national sports media scene, should give you hope that a TV deal and/or further sponsorship is not only planned but likely to become a reality.  The fact that Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG), which owns the CFL Redblacks, OHL 67’s, Ottawa Fury FC (USL), and manages the 24000 seat Ottawa rectangular stadium TD Place should give you confidence there is local money to back such expansion.
• Lamport Stadium is actually a pretty fun venue.  Old school and utilitarian, for sure; but it gets the job done and just feels right for rugby league.  You should really come to a game, sometime!

In a nutshell, while I'm not going to pretend that there are no kinks to iron out, I genuinely believe that Toronto Wolfpack promotion to Super League will cause a lot of these pieces to fall into place in much the way so many have done so already.  Even if there are disagreements in terms of the present value of such expansion, it will be fun to watch and a great ride as it happens!

[TIWIT]

7 minutes ago, ChoboMog said:

@ojx, I skipped the first 53 pages, or so, as well, but I've at least tried to keep things on topic, here.  Your frustration is definitely shared.

@Big Picture, I think Elstone's point about Toronto being seemingly pretty "random", and likely not even in the top hundred cities you would have expected a rugby league team makes some sense, at least if someone were positing the idea a half decade ago.  These days, the only thing "random" is the fact that the team has taken off so well, and that public interest has seemingly blossomed out of nothing, to the point where 7000+ fans are to be expected each week and where 9000+ for any important game is standard.  I agree that he is, still, trying to get his head around what Toronto represents, going forward, but I feel like the potential for growth, international exposure, and increased TV/advertising revenue it presents will be impossible for him and the other owners to pass up.

Thankfully, there is nothing "random" about the fans in attendance.  Those of us who are into rugby league are a given; but the vast majority, in my experience, are completely new to the sport, came to a single game and then decided to return again, and again, and again...

@The Parksider, I will do my best to keep my response concise, and I do appreciate the fact you specifically addressed my points:

• While Eric Perez is still listed as "Founder" of the Toronto Wolfpack, in many places, he hasn't had a meaningful role with the team for at least the duration of the 2019 season.  Were he still actively involved with the Toronto Wolfpack, his views might be relevant; however, given that he is not, and the fact he has clearly moved on to Ottawa, there is really little value in referencing his past statements in relation to Toronto.
• I fundamentally disagree, as I am sure many others here would, that viewing expansion as a zero sum game makes sense.  It is a truly flawed calculus.  Not only are there easily players for more that 12 professional clubs, the increased opportunity to turn professional provides significant incentive for youngsters to follow their dream, for those down under to maybe give the Northern Hemisphere a try etc.  Similarly, the single best way to foster new player development, RU-to-RL player conversion, and even the to date mythical NFL/CFL gridiorn-to-RL conversion of players is to have the combination of exposure and opportunity, both of which North American expansion provides.  I won't pretend those benefits will be seen overnight, or even within a year or two; but for anyone thinking long term, here, playing the long game, those benefits are undeniable.
• I don't believe that there will be a need to persuade/select any teams for relegation, amalgamation, and/or relocation for this expansion to work.  This will happen relatively naturally as the circumstances, and the landscape of the RFL's three tiers, change.  Further to the zero sum point, above, as interest grows the RFL ranks and even the number of teams in the SL top tier can also grow.
• Rugby Union definitely has a much stronger foothold in North America, at the amateur level; however, realistically, I've seen a grand total of one advertisement, combined, for the Toronto Arrows and Major League Rugby, in my life.  They are hardly the threat some will make them out to be.  MRL looks bigger in North America, perhaps on paper and after a quick glance at the Wikipedia map; but if a NYC, Boston, or Montreal rugby league team were to emulate the Toronto Wolfpack's business model, I genuinely believe RU/MRL would be pushed aside and the better code would prevail quite easily.
• I don't have any inside information regarding investors.  However, the addition of Bob Hunter to the Toronto Wolfpack management team is potentially a huge deal given his decades of experience dealing with stadium construction [SkyDome, Air Canada Centre (aka Scotiabank Arena), BMO Field, B.C. Place & Vancouver Expo etc) and local government support, as well has having massive connections within the local/national sports media scene, should give you hope that a TV deal and/or further sponsorship is not only planned but likely to become a reality.  The fact that Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG), which owns the CFL Redblacks, OHL 67’s, Ottawa Fury FC (USL), and manages the 24000 seat Ottawa rectangular stadium TD Place should give you confidence there is local money to back such expansion.
• Lamport Stadium is actually a pretty fun venue.  Old school and utilitarian, for sure; but it gets the job done and just feels right for rugby league.  You should really come to a game, sometime!

In a nutshell, while I'm not going to pretend that there are no kinks to iron out, I genuinely believe that Toronto Wolfpack promotion to Super League will cause a lot of these pieces to fall into place in much the way so many have done so already.  Even if there are disagreements in terms of the present value of such expansion, it will be fun to watch and a great ride as it happens!

 

[Man of Kent]

15 minutes ago, ChoboMog said:

 Similarly, the single best way to foster new player development, RU-to-RL player conversion, and even the to date mythical NFL/CFL gridiorn-to-RL conversion of players is to have the combination of exposure and opportunity, both of which North American expansion provides.  I won't pretend those benefits will be seen overnight, or even within a year or two; but for anyone thinking long term, here, playing the long game, those benefits are undeniable.

It’s five years since Toronto applied to join the RFL and in that time the sum of player development efforts seem to be the Last Tackle show, frankly a gimmick, and some tokenistic kids’ touch/tag sessions.

Where is the blueprint for a player development pathway you describe above, even in outline form? Why should we believe Toronto will bother?

[Big Picture]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

It’s five years since Toronto applied to join the RFL and in that time the sum of player development efforts seem to be the Last Tackle show, frankly a gimmick, and some tokenistic kids’ touch/tag sessions.

Where is the blueprint for a player development pathway you describe above, even in outline form? Why should we believe Toronto will bother?

What part of they have to be at the top of the pyramid before they'll appeal to the sort of potential converts with the best prospects of making the transition do you fail to understand?

[Krzzystuff]

30 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

What part of they have to be at the top of the pyramid before they'll appeal to the sort of potential converts with the best prospects of making the transition do you fail to understand?

You lost him at "Toronto"...if it ain't a shire it's bad

[TIWIT]

3 hours ago, Krzzystuff said:

You lost him at "Toronto"...if it ain't a shire it's bad

Ah, so he's a hobbit then.

[Damien]

7 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Something for the doubters to read: Toronto Wolfpack successful Marketing Campaign proven on-field.

A good positive article that gets what TWP have been doing and why they have been doing it.

[Man of Kent]

4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

What part of they have to be at the top of the pyramid before they'll appeal to the sort of potential converts with the best prospects of making the transition do you fail to understand?

Not sure they have to be at the top of the pyramid to appeal to converts. If they can attract Ricky Leutele et al, I’m sure they could appeal now if they really wanted. 

The question for me is how Toronto develops domestic RL players via an Academy-style system when the nearest opposition requires a 7000-mile round trip.  Any ideas?

[Oliver Clothesoff]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Not sure they have to be at the top of the pyramid to appeal to converts. If they can attract Ricky Leutele et al, I’m sure they could appeal now if they really wanted. 

The question for me is how Toronto develops domestic RL players via an Academy-style system when the nearest opposition requires a 7000-mile round trip.  Any ideas?

Open an Academy in the UK in the short-to-mid term and invest heavily in school sport in Toronto and the wider region. 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Not sure they have to be at the top of the pyramid to appeal to converts. If they can attract Ricky Leutele et al, I’m sure they could appeal now if they really wanted. 

The question for me is how Toronto develops domestic RL players via an Academy-style system when the nearest opposition requires a 7000-mile round trip.  Any ideas?

 

Just now, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Open an Academy in the UK in the short-to-mid term and invest heavily in school sport in Toronto and the wider region. 

You beat me to it. MoK what's your thoughts on them setting up a centre of excellence in London to develop players?

Even better to have more british players being developed, plus that gives a base for talented Canadians to be tested.

[Man of Kent]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

You beat me to it. MoK what's your thoughts on them setting up a centre of excellence in London to develop players?

Even better to have more british players being developed, plus that gives a base for talented Canadians to be tested.

Is it needed? The Broncos’ academy came fifth this year, only behind Wigan/Leeds/Saints/Warrington. It’s become the jewel in their crown. 

Perhaps Manchester is an area where we need more player development? TWP are based around there so seems more natural.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Is it needed? The Broncos’ academy came fifth this year, only behind Wigan/Leeds/Saints/Warrington. It’s become the jewel in their crown. 

Perhaps Manchester is an area where we need more player development? TWP are based around there so seems more natural.

If I was going to invest money into youth development I'd rather it was London than Manchester which really should be served better by existing clubs. 

They have talked about their support for Skolars too so maybe a natural link there. 

[Man of Kent]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

If I was going to invest money into youth development I'd rather it was London than Manchester which really should be served better by existing clubs. 

They have talked about their support for Skolars too so maybe a natural link there. 

Throwing some money at Skolars would be nice and all but it isn’t really development of Canadian players.

I’d like to see some domestic commitment beyond the ‘putting rugby balls in kids’ hands’ slogan.

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Throwing some money at Skolars would be nice and all but it isn’t really development of Canadian players.

I’d like to see some domestic commitment beyond the ‘putting rugby balls in kids’ hands’ slogan.

If the player pool for SL is an issue, I'm not bothered whether player development brings through Canadian players. That is one for the CRL so they can do ok internationally, butbthat ain't SL's remit in the slightest.

There is a lot of virgin territory in the UK and other places. 

Of course I think you should have local pathways too, but if they can develop new players into the pot from elsewhere I dont have a single issue with that. A little bit like I think UK clubs should be looking wider than they do.

[dkw]

6 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

It’s five years since Toronto applied to join the RFL and in that time the sum of player development efforts seem to be the Last Tackle show, frankly a gimmick, and some tokenistic kids’ touch/tag sessions.

Where is the blueprint for a player development pathway you describe above, even in outline form? Why should we believe Toronto will bother?

What make them tokenistic exactly? 

[GUBRATS]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

If the player pool for SL is an issue, I'm not bothered whether player development brings through Canadian players. That is one for the CRL so they can do ok internationally, butbthat ain't SL's remit in the slightest.

There is a lot of virgin territory in the UK and other places. 

Of course I think you should have local pathways too, but if they can develop new players into the pot from elsewhere I dont have a single issue with that. A little bit like I think UK clubs should be looking wider than they do.

As you say that's CRL's remit , but surely given Toronto"s supposed profile , surely they should be working together on it ? , Which as I've put , would be one of my requirements for SL entry , I find it very strange that there doesn't seem to be any collaboration between the official Canadian international organisation , and it's only pro club

[Man of Kent]

16 minutes ago, Dave T said:

If the player pool for SL is an issue, I'm not bothered whether player development brings through Canadian players. That is one for the CRL so they can do ok internationally, butbthat ain't SL's remit in the slightest.

Why not?

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Why not?

SLE should be focused on the strength of their comp. 

TWP could invest millions in Canadian players and it does nothing for the comp. Or they could spend millions signing the best players in the world and the returns for the comp would be far better.

The international governing bodies need to work with them to create a strong international team, but TWP dont have to do it.

In an ideal world they should have strong links, like the UK clubs do with the RFL, but ultimately I dont see why SLE should demand that. Sponsors, money, tv, crowds are more important to them.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

SLE should be focused on the strength of their comp. 

TWP could invest millions in Canadian players and it does nothing for the comp. Or they could spend millions signing the best players in the world and the returns for the comp would be far better.

The international governing bodies need to work with them to create a strong international team, but TWP dont have to do it.

In an ideal world they should have strong links, like the UK clubs do with the RFL, but ultimately I dont see why SLE should demand that. Sponsors, money, tv, crowds are more important to them.

I do agree with this from a pragmatic view and it's entirely correct. It is not in SLE's remit at all.

From an Internationalist and RL fan viewpoint though I would like to see TWP take a lead and develop a domestic competition to be their feeder system/reserve system. This could be done in conjunction with Ottawa with each developing 6 feeder clubs in major, strategic centres. 

[Dave T]

27 minutes ago, Damien said:

I do agree with this from a pragmatic view and it's entirely correct. It is not in SLE's remit at all.

From an Internationalist and RL fan viewpoint though I would like to see TWP take a lead and develop a domestic competition to be their feeder system/reserve system. This could be done in conjunction with Ottawa with each developing 6 feeder clubs in major, strategic centres. 

Me too. But from a pure TWP attractiveness to SLE point of view we need to be careful that we dont demand too much. Developing the game in a country shouldn't be left to one country. We have seen with Catalans that does little.

[The Parksider]

17 hours ago, Damien said:

From an Internationalist and RL fan viewpoint though I would like to see TWP take a lead and develop a domestic competition to be their feeder system/reserve system. This could be done in conjunction with Ottawa with each developing 6 feeder clubs in major, strategic centres. 

Just how many many times. They don't play Rugby League in Canada, so who is going to do all this "developing" and who is going to play? It’s ten years since Perez re-started Canada RL and five years since he planned Toronto Wolfpack. Ten years on all he has produced is smoke and mirrors. The CRL website that appears not to have been updated  for a long time lists a couple of RL clubs like Brantwood in Toronto, but there’s nothing much to indicate beyond 2017 there’s actually been any active amateur or junior RL played in Toronto and not Ottawa either with the Ottawa Rhinos appearing to not play after 2017?

The CRU and the Toronto RU website lists 29 vibrant and active Rugby Union clubs in Toronto most of which are running kids, Mens, Womens and Veterans Rugby Union teams out of decent facilities, there are a few thousand real Canadians playing RU in Toronto at all ranges in good facilities with good coaching. There is a real professional club playing there. There appears to be few if any Torontonians playing league in any regular way if at all.

16 hours ago, Dave T said:

Me too. But from a pure TWP attractiveness to SLE point of view we need to be careful that we dont demand too much. "Developing the game in a country shouldn't be left to one country". 

What a meaningless phrase? Once again Argylle ships a squad of mercenaries from here to Toronto to pretend to be RL expansion. To get a crowd he uses a lot of free tickets and puts on a beer festival to encourage people to attend the game. That's all fine and dandy and a nice little sideshow, but nobody is inspired to actually start any RL clubs.

It was 2010 when the genius Perez himself set out to develop the Canadian RL game. He spent years on it and got nowhere and TWP are three years on but are clearly not a catalyst for getting anyone to organise or play RL in Canada. What does "demand too much" mean? when they look like they ain't doing anything at all.

And the bottom line is Argylle has no interest in developing the game if you look at his track record this last 3 years. He even refused to join Canada RL and any involvement he's had with "grass roots" has been cosying up to Ontario Rugby Union. The man is pushing 60 so he'll never be around long enough to see any professional Canadian players come through one day.  Don't you get that?

He lives for the here and now so he signs 30 players from here and stuff development. That's how it works.

20 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

As you say that's CRL's remit , but surely given Toronto"s supposed profile , surely they should be working together on it ? , Which as I've put , would be one of my requirements for SL entry , I find it very strange that there doesn't seem to be any collaboration between the official Canadian international organisation , and it's only pro club

That sounds very grand as though there is some sort of board of  Governors sat in plush offices for the RL game in Canada, so busy they don't have the time to bother with the Canadian domestic game not that it exists beyond a few RU players playing it for fun now and again..

Canada RL is Bob Jowett. You remember? The guy who Argyle snubbed refusing to pay Bob a few dollars for CRU membership. He organises what there is of the game in Canada which for the last couple of years is organising the annual international match with the USA. That needs a bus and a hotel booking and that's about all. He probably does that from his kitchen. TBF Canada have just had a short tour to Serbia, in which I assume the team was made up of RU players, who fancied a jolly.  

We still cannot get real here. A phoney Canadian RL club is created to titilate one man's fancy, whilst North American Rugby Union power on building more and more real clubs and attracting more and more real players, with the best turning professional at real clubs in the MLR across the continent, working towards the prize being the Rugby Union World cup in North America. 

I'm stunned that we continue to support this nonsense, I thought we had come to our senses when Pearson and McManus called it all out for what it is "Dressing up English players in Canadian jerseys"?

Worse still the end game is apparently five phoney SL clubs with 150 SL players who live here, all going training somewhere in Manchester every day, then taking it in turns to hop on a plane to go pretend to be Canadian teams every other week

And not only that Huddersfield, Cas, HKR and Wakey  are slung out of Superleague to accommodate it!! I'll be sat here in West Yorkshire where there will only be one professional club left.

It will kill the game here...........You know it will........... 

We are seriously in danger here of letting this go too far and becoming a complete laughing stock when the bubble bursts, can you grasp the enormity of the absurdity here? RL failed in North America the day they pulled the world cup. Union will get that instead so it's over - we have to stop fooling ourselves.

[Man of Kent]

18 hours ago, Dave T said:

The international governing bodies need to work with them to create a strong international team, but TWP dont have to do it.

The reality is it’s down to clubs to develop players and for governing bodies to develop the international game for those players.

That’s how it’s worked here for the past 125 years or so, no? 

I absolutely take on board what you say about the potential benefits to SL.

If SLE can attract new, multinational, paying sponsors etc that would obviously be great.

Not guaranteed with one Canadian outpost and Betfred & others being so prominent but maybe.

If they win the MPG, TWP are a worth a shot (if the 11 other clubs aren’t on the hook for unpaid bills etc) but without player development they will always be a novelty act in my view.

And due to the salary cap, they are likely to be an unsuccessful novelty act. They will need to develop their own players.

Surely they can see this. So why no plans?