Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[dkw]

13 hours ago, Damien said:

Should the same criteria apply to all Super League clubs?

This is where its getting ridiculous, the stipulations and expectations placed on new clubs are basically ignored when it comes to existing clubs. My own club has been shockingly ran in the past, its a lot better now but we have no true junior development, simply because we don`t have the money to do it. 

[TboneFromTO]

10 hours ago, The Parksider said:

This isn't expansion it is the substitution of Clubs leading to contraction of player development.

There are now more full time opportunities for players, which has expanded the earning potential of what we do have, which in turn should expand player interest.  

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, dkw said:

You think his repeated trite rubbish is constructive debate ha ha....oh man that`s funny.

Correct dkw, it is not debate, no one cares to offer anything to discuss, please be my guest, carry on.

[dkw]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Correct dkw, it is not debate, no one cares to offer anything to discuss, please be my guest, carry on.

Rubbish. There`s been loads of responses to him he has fully ignored and you know it. Your white knighting of him is as pathetic as his trolling.

[Harry Stottle]

16 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

?

 Not surprised at all you question what I am saying, it is something foriegn to Canadian sports, you are happy to buy players in whatever the game, you told me so yourself! 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

Rubbish. There`s been loads of responses to him he has fully ignored and you know it. Your white knighting of him is as pathetic as his trolling.

I will agree that he does repeat a lot of the same stuff, but only because there is no logical response or constructive contradiction to not only what he but also I and a few others question, it really is a suck it and see approach in that the only way forward is to try it and see if it works from the many on these  pages who champion Toronto's cause.

That is all very well and if SL had taken that same approach we would not be having this conversation now, SL must have doubts and deliberations that is why 5 days before the final takes place we are non the wiser if TWP are going to be admitted or not, if the SL bosses were all of the same opinion we would have had an announcement by now, guess what they have been debating it, now I know our opinions mean very little, but if Toronto do get rejected just watch the melt down on this site answering all the questions that some of us have been posing for a long time.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

You ain't told me anything or suggested any alternative method of taking the game and 'expanding' and developing it to educate and convert those not already involved with it. 

Totally agree that it is as relevant to Toronto as anywhere else, and even if you employ the Top down approach you still need to cast the seeds, nurture and manage the crop to produce the required/best possible harvest, I explained the method I am familiar and worked with the course I term as the 'organic' method, so please advise me how results can be acheived from the introduction to identifying and producing the elite performers by a dfferent approach, we still have to identify those who stand out from the also rans and set them on a plan of action to acheive excellence by putting them through a series of progressive programmes where the cream rises to the top, you tell me there are "countless examples" of a different approach of how it is acheived in sports anywhere in the world, I honestly have not a clue, please share.

Like I said Harry it is a different sporting culture in North America. Soccer tried for years to go with your "organic" growth method. Ultimately they realised that professional teams had to be at the top of the tree for the sport to have any purchase or legitimacy in the national consciousness so that your preferred grassroots level sport could flourish. Every Sport in a franchised culture environment has expanded into an area which it didn't exist in the pre war era for example. Melbourne are the prime example in RL of a city that didn't play RL in any great amount, yet had a space for the game carved out by a pro team and grew a culture from it. The US and Canada are littered with examples across their "Big 4" sports which afaik at least 2 started in a relatively small area of the country and then grew.

Point being, that without that professional, and I guess you might argue contrived, team in the city/region, the sport isn't going to get a foothold to do your growth.

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Re your longevity in playing union, isnt it obvious that they adopt a social approch and do age related teams, the "Owd Un's", "Veteran's" and "Zimmer Walker's" spring to mind! I jest, good luck to them to playing at whatever age they can, but all RL leagues I know of (masters excluded) there is no concession given for age, if you take the field you have to prepared to take the knocks, but in fainess Tommy it is not this category we are talking about being those who already play the sport, I thought we were discussing taking the sport to those yet to be introduced/converted? 

In RL though we both appreciate the knocks are bigger. The collisions are bigger. Its what many people love about the sport. It is somewhat limiting though in how it makes it a very elite game in practice. Whilst you say there are examples of union teams that do cut themselves off into veterans teams etc., my point was that populating the 3s and 4s and 5s of union clubs around the country (and indeed in RL heartlands) there are many players playing longer at that open age level. This is relevant in that if the game is hard for someone over 35 to play then it is as difficult for youngsters as well.

In my opinion getting more people playing because they enjoy playing is just as important as producing professional quality players.

I appreciate that dividing by weight would be a potential avenue to move down. My own suggestion would be to reduce the 10m defence to a lower number to reduce the scale of impacts.

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Replicating the late 1800's and the first 50 or so years of the 1900's? What is all that about, a couple of selectors standing on a touchline at various venues till they identify 15 lads and and an extra sub, have a 2 hour training session then play the game, that was the chosen method of progressive excellence, please Tommy, you can come up with better than that!

What I meant was that whilst sports evolved in the late 1800s and 20th century, that isn't necessarily the way things are going to work now. The world is different. People are different. Living in the past and expecting things to work in the 2020s in Toronto, Canada because they worked in 1920s industrial Lancashire is madness. I appreciate you may view that as an extreme example but the point is still salient. We both don't know how the game is going to grow in Canada - but what we both know is that having a pro team there is going to help far more than it will ever hinder.

[Kayakman]

35 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

!

[Kayakman]

21 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 Not surprised at all you question what I am saying, it is something foriegn to Canadian sports, you are happy to buy players in whatever the game, you told me so yourself! 

# + $=  ^

[Harry Stottle]

41 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Like I said Harry it is a different sporting culture in North America. Soccer tried for years to go with your "organic" growth method. Ultimately they realised that professional teams had to be at the top of the tree for the sport to have any purchase or legitimacy in the national consciousness so that your preferred grassroots level sport could flourish. Every Sport in a franchised culture environment has expanded into an area which it didn't exist in the pre war era for example. Melbourne are the prime example in RL of a city that didn't play RL in any great amount, yet had a space for the game carved out by a pro team and grew a culture from it. The US and Canada are littered with examples across their "Big 4" sports which afaik at least 2 started in a relatively small area of the country and then grew.

Point being, that without that professional, and I guess you might argue contrived, team in the city/region, the sport isn't going to get a foothold to do your growth.

In RL though we both appreciate the knocks are bigger. The collisions are bigger. Its what many people love about the sport. It is somewhat limiting though in how it makes it a very elite game in practice. Whilst you say there are examples of union teams that do cut themselves off into veterans teams etc., my point was that populating the 3s and 4s and 5s of union clubs around the country (and indeed in RL heartlands) there are many players playing longer at that open age level. This is relevant in that if the game is hard for someone over 35 to play then it is as difficult for youngsters as well.

In my opinion getting more people playing because they enjoy playing is just as important as producing professional quality players.

I appreciate that dividing by weight would be a potential avenue to move down. My own suggestion would be to reduce the 10m defence to a lower number to reduce the scale of impacts.

What I meant was that whilst sports evolved in the late 1800s and 20th century, that isn't necessarily the way things are going to work now. The world is different. People are different. Living in the past and expecting things to work in the 2020s in Toronto, Canada because they worked in 1920s industrial Lancashire is madness. I appreciate you may view that as an extreme example but the point is still salient. We both don't know how the game is going to grow in Canada - but what we both know is that having a pro team there is going to help far more than it will ever hinder.

OK Tommy, I did say I will go along with your Top Down approach.

Alright now we have placed a team any team in any sport anywhere in the world in virgin territory for that game.

That team has become successful, gained the imagination of the public and is attracting the attendances, now they want to 'expand' the sport in participation levels and ultimately produce their own elite athletes.

Now take me on that journey of how they are going to acheive it, numbers of individuals and teams required, and expected timescales, will it be organic in player development or by some other method?

[Harry Stottle]

42 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

!

Nearest I could find to a No Entry sign.

[Adelaide Tiger]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

You won't get anything of any substance Parky, just look at who has placed the laughing Emoji to your correspondence they do it every time, they have nothing whatsoever constructive to debate in the Toronto discussion, a one finger press is about their limit.

I didn’t place a laughing Emoji for 2 reasons.  One, it is purile and, two, because I know I will not get anything of substance from Parksider.

I supported the introduction of Toronto as I am pig sick of RL/SL doing the same old thing but expecting a different outcome.  I am pig sick of Chairmen at clubs who believe that they are succeeding by just keeping their heads above water, or thinking that they are Bill Gatesesque by sinking slower than their rivals.  I am pig sick of clubs supporting a Salary Cap that has barely change over the years that in essence rewards mediocrity.  And all this IMHO is because the game refuses to change or is scared to change.

I have no issue with someone having an alternate view.  In fact I prefer to debate against an opposing view as it is certainly more stimulating than just nodding in agreement.

Over the years Parksider has continually asked those who support Toronto’s inclusion to ‘state the benefit that Toronto will bring to SL’.  Well as you say in your above post it is literally a ‘suck it and see’ as none of us can predict if Toronto will be a success or failure.  Also no one can predict if every other SL team will be thriving in 10 years.  Bradford being the prime example.

But, I and many others, have frequently asked Parksider as to how does he see SL flourishing if the game does not embrace clubs like Toronto and heaven forbid retracts to a 10 team league which he is fond of quoting.  He has never provided an answer so that is why IMHO there is nothing of substance in his posts.

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

OK Tommy, I did say I will go along with your Top Down approach.

Alright now we have placed a team any team in any sport anywhere in the world in virgin territory for that game.

That team has become successful, gained the imagination of the public and is attracting the attendances, now they want to 'expand' the sport in participation levels and ultimately produce their own elite athletes.

Now take me on that journey of how they are going to acheive it, numbers of individuals and teams required, and expected timescales, will it be organic in player development or by some other method?

Yep of course. Almost certainly it will involve schools and higher education too as the community club is a much harder thing to establish. I was never disputing that it would take generations to produce serious top quality players - indeed there is a chance that might never happen. What I was disputing is that it is possible and is far more likely with a pro team there: and indeed that the pro team itself is the spark that sets it alight. Newcastle and London are clearly the best examples we have over here of areas that have been/are being relatively well expanded into.

[fighting irish]

On 28/09/2019 at 07:06, TIWIT said:

Ah, so he's a hobbit then.

He might as well be.

[fighting irish]

On 29/09/2019 at 09:15, Harry Stottle said:

I would agree with that statement if the sport was awash with player development from all other angles, in Rugby League it is most definatley not the case, in the British game we have 12 'elite' clubs as you put it, everyone one of those should be made to comply unequivocally without question to contribute with 'Player Development' to an already diminishing production line, 90ish player's are recruited from the Southern Hemisphere in our leagues to assist our inadequacy to produce enough of our own, adding a team incapable of pressing the 'on button' on the production conveyor belt does not help.

Sorry if I upset anyone but the number one criteria to me for entry into SL should be PLAYER DEVELOPMENT, and I include Salford and either of the Hull clubs in that statement if they still share an academy that is, they should have one each, no club should be allowed to fail to comply with player development, we have in fact in many areas got a contraction of our game not expansion in the true sense of expanding the game with more participants, this needs reversing or the game will suffer irreparable damage in the not to distant future. 

There is simply to much lack of interest or concern on this subject it should be the top priority of our Governing body to re-employ the development officers and of all our elite clubs to get out into the communitues to assist and promote the game.

Well said 'arry.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Nearest I could find to a No Entry sign.

# + $= % ^

Yes or No Harry?  Do you understand my point?

[GUBRATS]

14 hours ago, TheReaper said:

You should look at how many SL players overall came from each academy,  in terms of growing the pool it doesn't matter which team they end up on.

Or even which town ?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

# + $= % ^

Yes or No Harry?  Do you understand my point?

Number plus Dollar's equates to pecentage up? 

Sorry I am not familiar with the single upturned Chevron, explain.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Number plus Dollar's equates to pecentage up? 

Sorry I am not familiar with the single upturned Chevron, explain.

Come On Big Fella!  Its more than what you say...I know you were involved in engineering so its hard for you to laterally think along a Z axis but it can be done. Now tell me what this means in RL terms.

<#/=^%\>salary cap=Toronto.  The math...it don't lie.

Now figure that one out Harry...not so hard.

[TheReaper]

18 hours ago, The Future is League said:

As an example i would say that London had more academy produced players in there first team squad this season than Salford and Hull KR. 

I should have quoted this post, my post below was meant to be in reply to it.

15 hours ago, TheReaper said:

You should look at how many SL players overall came from each academy,  in terms of growing the pool it doesn't matter which team they end up on.

My point being that the academies mentioned benefit any team the players end up on. Unless none of those player ever play for any other club, you can't just look how many are in that teams senior squad.

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Or even which town ?

Idk, sure, if you want. Productivity of certain academies was being discussed,  you can run some numbers on hometowns if you want to. 

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

I should have quoted this post, my post below was meant to be in reply to it.

My point being that the academies mentioned benefit any team the players end up on. Unless none of those player ever play for any other club, you can't just look how many are in that teams senior squad.

Idk, sure, if you want. Productivity of certain academies was being discussed,  you can run some numbers on hometowns if you want to. 

I have no doubt in my mind that Toronto will be running an academy in some form within 5 years of being promoted to SL.

[JDINTHEHIZZOUSE]

I think it's fair to say that if toronto win next week and DON'T get promoted then the majority of us will be up in arms about it and quite rightly so,however,despite elstones unwillingness to commit himself there is another important factor at play here,the article was first printed in the sun for gods sake,there's a pretty good chance that this thread has run for 59 pages more than it needed to

[Damien]

39 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I have no doubt in my mind that Toronto will be running an academy in some form within 5 years of being promoted to SL.

Oh no you've gone and done it now. You've given a timeframe that will be quoted for ever more.

[The Future is League]

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Bolux, tell me when that has happened before, we are playing to the exact same format as SL they play at a neutral venue, the league leaders are given the best possible opportunity to reach the final and rightly so they have earned it, but it is a final of great importance, and as such a neutral venue should have been chosen.

FWIW, I have strong feeings that after the 'Catalan' Wembley final the resulting attendance frightened the Rugby League and Ralphy Rimmer in particular to avoid complete embarrassment in the possibility and expected Toronto v Tolouse final at a neutral venue the 'New Innovative' play it at the home of highest placed team was invented. It is farcical to say the least.

Whats the point of finishing top in the regular season if you can't host home game

Now London went there last and won are you suggesting that you don't think Fev are good enough to win there?

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

I should have quoted this post, my post below was meant to be in reply to it.

My point being that the academies mentioned benefit any team the players end up on. Unless none of those player ever play for any other club, you can't just look how many are in that teams senior squad.

Idk, sure, if you want. Productivity of certain academies was being discussed,  you can run some numbers on hometowns if you want to. 

No productivity of players is what was being discussed , pro clubs run scholarships from 12-16 , but those kids still play at their community clubs during that period , once they move up to academies at 16/17 they then officially are part of that pro club , basically they then stay with that club for 4/5 years before either getting offered a contract or released , so why the clubs have the lads for 5 years the community clubs quite often have them for double that , many of those community clubs are based in towns where we have current SL or Championship Clubs , and most if not all of those clubs have produced SL players , and will continue to do so 

Just having more academies isn't always the answer , having more community clubs is actually much more important