Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Kayakman]

6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Can't really argue with your points , so in some respects , what value does the ' novelty ' have ?

We won't really know the full answer to that question until Toronto hoists the SL trophy over its head and has its parade in downtown Toronto....soooo...lllet...ss ...seeeeee....That means you will only have to wait two (2) more years max. Gubrats for your answer.

[Jean de Bordeaux]

Toulouse, capital city of french rugby, with a very well structured club at all levels for men and women, and now the  20 000 seats RU stadium open to RL , would be a far better choice for SuperLeague, allowing french development, interest of the media, french derby, better french national team, and normal operation for the competition with regular home and away games.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Jean de Bordeaux said:

Toulouse, capital city of french rugby, with a very well structured club at all levels for men and women, and now the  20 000 seats RU stadium open to RL , would be a far better choice for SuperLeague, allowing french development, interest of the media, french derby, better french national team, and normal operation for the competition with regular home and away games.

Jean , you are probably right , so you'd better beat Fev on sat to get your chance 

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Can't really argue with your points , so in some respects , what value does the ' novelty ' have ?

There will be a short-term spike in Super League interest for sure. More national newspaper column inches, more web stories and more TV news coverage. 100% guaranteed.

But after the novelty of a Canadian team in Super League fades, as people see they are as Canadian as mushy peas, as they perhaps aren’t quite as competitive as hoped, then where is the value to Super League if no NA TV deal and no player development? Finding it hard to see.

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

But after the novelty of a Canadian team in Super League fades, as people see they are as Canadian as mushy peas, as they perhaps aren’t quite as competitive as hoped, then where is the value to Super League if no NA TV deal and no player development? Finding it hard to see.

Well if you would bother to take off the blindfold that sure might help a bit.,,,just sayin.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

There will be a short-term spike in Super League interest for sure. More national newspaper column inches, more web stories and more TV news coverage. 100% guaranteed.

But after the novelty of a Canadian team in Super League fades, as people see they are as Canadian as mushy peas, as they perhaps aren’t quite as competitive as hoped, then where is the value to Super League if no NA TV deal and no player development? Finding it hard to see.

As I put , one of the primary conditions would be they start to work with RL Canada on building a community and potential high school presence in the Ontario area 

Maybe make use of the Union convert SC exemption to actually bring in ' some ' Canadians 

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Well if you would bother to take off the blindfold that sure might help a bit.,,,just sayin.

As much as we all like having a laugh occasionally , time for straight talking not in riddles , or be ignored 

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

As I put , one of the primary conditions would be they start to work with RL Canada on building a community and potential high school presence in the Ontario area 

Maybe make use of the Union convert SC exemption to actually bring in ' some ' Canadians 

I would welcome that.

At the moment the extent of TWP’s player development seems to be a few touch rugby sessions for the cameras but surely nobody is fooled by that kind of bare-minimum whitewash.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

I would welcome that.

At the moment the extent of TWP’s player development seems to be a few touch rugby sessions for the cameras but surely nobody is fooled by that kind of bare-minimum whitewash.

Which is my point MoK , there might be some value to be made here , as long as both sides calm down and accept the others and their own failings and positives , as you put having a couple of players taking a kids trading session isn't kidding anybody , so Toronto's management need to accept that no matter wether Mr Perez has now left , he represented them and gave us what their ( not his ) policy would be , and do much more to honour that policy 

Also the SL club owners need to be a bit flexible in their logistic demands , only then might everybody see that there just might be something that can work to everybody's benefit 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, krakauer said:

And here we go again

But nobody gives any realistic answers to these questions, I have posed quite logical concerns and questions, is it that I am just completely ignored because they are irrelevant, or is it that no one has anything constructive to add, I want someone to prove me wrong but nobody has the nous to challenge what I ask.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Krzzystuff said:

The thing is that in the interviews of Bob Hunter he mentions that we would be taking our cut, maybe this is the sticking point with SL?

If this is true then the implication is that an increase in travel costs could be financially damaging to the clubs in the so-called "Super League", which in turn would suggest that they are very small time, hand to mouth outfits indeed.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But nobody gives any realistic answers to these questions, I have posed quite logical concerns and questions, is it that I am just completely ignored because they are irrelevant, or is it that no one has anything constructive to add, I want someone to prove me wrong but nobody has the nous to challenge what I ask.

Harry let's be honest here , we aren't going to see any big TV deal anytime soon , neither are we going to see any Canadian RL players in the way we see them churn out of Wigan,Leeds and Saints academies 

We might however see a TV deal that done with contra deals for UK based SL games that gives Toronto's equivalent of the SKY central funding 

Also we might see actual Canadian RL players converted from their Union junior stocks 

Would that be enough to justify their membership of UK Row top tier ? , For some no , for some yes , but only by giving them the opportunity will we find out 

[Harry Stottle]

17 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

As I put , one of the primary conditions would be they start to work with RL Canada on building a community and potential high school presence in the Ontario area 

Maybe make use of the Union convert SC exemption to actually bring in ' some ' Canadians 

Have a look what I said in my post to K'man Gubby, we keep being told it is normal for all forms of Canadian professional sports to rely on others to develop players, then they can just entice them there with big buck contracts, what makes you think that if these very high profile sports with multi million dollar turnovers can't produce player's, what makes you think that a little poxy new comer of a sport can be successful in that area.

It will be like casting seeds on a motorway, nothing will germinate, you must have read all the posts from our Canadian friends over these last couple of years that it is their nature to buy in players, they don't  care where they come from, it is the ethos of a vibrant young country, they just accept it.

[GUBRATS]

9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

If this is true then the implication is that an increase in travel costs could be financially damaging to the clubs in the so-called "Super League", which in turn would suggest that they are very small time, hand to mouth outfits indeed.

Yes they are , do you want to tell us something we don't know ?

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have a look what I said in my post to K'man Gubby, we keep being told it is normal for all forms of Canadian professional sports to rely on others to develop players, then they can just entice them there with big buck contracts, what makes you think that if these very high profile sports with multi million dollar turnovers can't produce player's, what makes you think that a little poxy new comer of a sport can be successful in that area.

It will be like casting seeds on a motorway, nothing will germinate, you must have read all the posts from our Canadian friends over these last couple of years that it is their nature to buy in players, they don't  care where they come from, it is the ethos of a vibrant young country, they just accept it.

Agree completely , but we set the rules , all these other sports have much bigger playing resources to call upon , we don't , they need to be made aware of this , as I put earlier , I consider what Mr Perez stated about producing players was their policy , not his , and they need to honour that policy 

[Big Picture]

23 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes they are , do you want to tell us something we don't know ?

The thing is, you guys over there might have known that but we over here did not before all these concerns of the current SL clubs about having Toronto in their league surfaced.  I for one had no idea how shaky the game's foundations are over there until all that happened and I've been following the sport for almost 25 years now.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The thing is, you guys over there might have known that but we over here did not before all these concerns of the current SL clubs about having Toronto in their league surfaced.  I for one had no idea how shaky the game's foundations are over there until all that happened and I've been following the sport for almost 25 years now.

So now you know , but you're still no nearer to setting up your ' mega league ' 

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

As much as we all like having a laugh occasionally , time for straight talking not in riddles , or be ignored 

Are you kidding me?...are you actually being serious?....now you guys have been going on for a while so I guess its time to shut it down if you are actually serious...The obvious answer to your question lies below...answered unwittingly by your accomplice in arms.  Right on the tip of your own nose that you could not see (because of the blindfold).

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

 it is the ethos of a vibrant young country, they just accept it.

Thats what we bring GROWTH!!!!   We have a vitality and youth you lack...hard to find those traits in an old age ward...the game is old and creaking to oblivion in the Northern Hemisphere and you both know it.  Look at the situation in Manchester with Swinton; a proud team possibly folded because its own fans force a sale simply because they won't have a name change; they would kill it rather than possibly save it; all over such a little thing.  I make no value judgement on it does it does show a lack of flexibility inherent in the game today.  You display a similar arrogance when anything about Toronto comes up.

Message From The Rugby Gods:

"TORONTO IS THE YIN AND THE YANG FOR RUGBY LEAGUE!  THEY ARE THE FRESH BLOOD TO THE ACCIDENT VICTIM...THEY ARE THE WATER FOR THE THiRSTING PLANT..THEY ARE THE SUN WHICH CASTS ASIDE THE SHADOW!"

We bring renewed life and you can't...and that is why you dislike the Pack so much..and you know it.

P.S.  Plus we got lots of cash on hand also (*about one billion of the little gaffers!).

[The Parksider]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Harry let's be honest here , we aren't going to see any big TV deal, neither are we going to see any Canadian RL players 

We might however see a TV deal that gives Toronto's equivalent of the SKY central funding also we might see actual Canadian RL players converted from their Union junior stocks....

Ouch! Those fence posts must hurt sticking into your posterior!!  On the player situation as per my last post gradually Perez and Noble have gone from predicting dozens of instant converts to Perez's admission that after three years, finding anyone to play RL to a professional level in Canada is just "not easy". That the avenue of RU players simply has never been considered may be enough to confirm they see this as another dead end, which I suspect they won't even attempt because all that would do is underline that if in the end they can't even find good enough players from Rugby Union they never will find any Canadian players. They would in effect prove themselves a waste of time.

You miss that their best tactic is to go on shipping the whole squad from here because as phoney as that is a lot of people are fooled into believing that Toronto Wolfpack are a wonderful success, look at all the posts that take this view. Imagine if they played RU players in Superleague and lost matches and came bottom all of a sudden the honeymoon would be over. They are better off continuing to dig in the player pool here.  

Your idea TWP could find a TV deal enough to provide the equivalent of central funding is also a red herring, as Argyle is already popping £2,000,000 of his own money in to cover that (rather than pay his bills), job done. The idea never was TWP just fund the TV money, and be the only Canadian club in SL, the idea was TWP lead five other NA clubs into Superleague and they THEN  have enough NA content to get a massive NATV deal - see below......

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

But nobody gives any realistic answers to these questions, I have posed quite logical concerns and questions, is it that I am just completely ignored because they are irrelevant, or is it that no one has anything constructive to add, I want someone to prove me wrong but nobody has the nous to challenge what I ask.

Join the club Harry, better they avoid answering you than screaming "(expletive deleted) Idiot, put him on ignore"  at you! I think you need to take it that a) An insult,  or b) re-defining success from developing players & getting paying TV deals to such as "we bring glamour" and "We are showing you how to market the game" etc. is enough to show that you win the debate....

Anyway following my post that shows TWP's efforts to develop players is now dead,  what about the TV money? Gubrats thinks it's good enough if TWP find £2M off Canadian TV which will justify their presence in SL. But this is nonsense because the plan that Perez set out, and that he continues to chase with Ottawa is, as he himself said in 2016:-

""TWP was never just a one club project. "When we started this journey, we knew that one team is not enough to yield what you need to yield from the NATV market." he said. "To bring NATV revenues, to really start bringing new money into the sport you've got to have multi-markets. "Now that Toronto is up and running, it's time to fulfil that destiny and get the next teams set up”.

And he says three North American clubs is not the limit of his ambitions."We are looking to make Super League the most commercially viable competition, apart from the Premiership, that plays in the northern hemisphere. "To do that you need to have more North American markets, at least five or six clubs in Superleague in the next 10 years.""

The truth is if TWP survive in SL in the same way that Les Catalans do it, as a token overseas club with a rich owner importing players, they will in the end win no friends and be just as unloved and unattractive as Les Catalans have become. This isn't Perez's aim - it's a Transatlantic League in which half the league become North American and he has Ottawa and New York in tow and he said that Montreal was back on and Vancouver had rung him.

So I suspect TWP into Superleague if they win the Play off, will come about not because anybody here wants to get that transatlantic league, but that on applying due dilligence to Toulouse, they ain't got any money, and Superleague operates on rich owners. Guess who is the richest........So the dynamic will be SL using Argyle to fill a SL spot nobody else has the money to fill, whilst Perez and Argyle use it to keep the Transatlantic dream alive.

[frank]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

If this is true then the implication is that an increase in travel costs could be financially damaging to the clubs in the so-called "Super League", which in turn would suggest that they are very small time, hand to mouth outfits indeed.

Half of the so called Rugby League supporters  who post on this site rarely attend  a game.If they did then Clubs may be  more able to afford to travel and they definitely would certainly not go watch other club games if their team hadn't a game. Just a couple of reasons why the game struggles.

[Kayakman]

AND THEY'RE OFF.

PARKY IS IN THE LEAD FOR 'OBLIVIOUS TO THE TRUTH' BUT HERE COME GUBRATS ON THE RAIL WITH 'UNFORESEEN STUBBORNESS'.....HARRY IS BRINGING UP THE REAR WITH A 'CLEAR DISREGARD OF EXPANSION'.

WE ARE AT THE THREE QUARTERS MARK AND HARRY STOTTLE IS MAKING HIS MOVE, THE JOCKEY HAS PUT THE SALARY CAP, ERR SORRY I MEAN WHIP, TO HIM AND HIS IGNORANCE FLATCAP IS STAYING ON...GUBRATS IS STILL IN IT DUE TO HIS CONSTANT NEGATIVITY FOR THE' FUTURE OF THE GAME'.

THEY ARE APPROACHING THE FINISH LINE HARRY NOSE TO NOSE WITH GUBRATS, PARKY IS HANGING IN THERE BUT SEEMS TO BE REFUSING TO CHANGE HIS GATE ONE  IOTA AND IS FALLING BACK.  EVEN THOUGH HE IS LOSING PARKY REFUSES TO CHANGE ANYTHING.  OH MY LORD PARKY HAS BROKEN ON THE RAIL!, YET HE STILL REFUSES TO CHANGE ANYTHING...HES ALL FOR LIQUIDATION.

ALMOST THERE, OH MY GOD! THERE HE IS COMING OFF THE THIRD RAIL LIKE A THUNDERBOLT, HE IS CATCHING THEM ALL AT THE LINE HE HAS WON BY A NOSE OUT OF THERE.  COMPLETELY OUT OF NOWHERE BUT GUIDED BY COMPLETE STUBBORNESS,  A SHORT SIGHTEDNESS THAT FEW POSSESS DRIVE HIM FOLLOWED ONLY BY A LOVE OF THE CROWD NUMBERS.

CONGRATS YELL ALL IN THE AGING GALLERY OF OLD MEN TO.......TO THE MAN OF KENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

HE HAS WON THE NAYSAYERS CUP...HE WILL BE TAKING A MANAGEMENT POSITION WITH GOOLE RLFC (founded 1901, folded 1902).

[frank]

1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

AND THEY'RE OFF.

PARKY IS IN THE LEAD FOR 'OBLIVIOUS TO THE TRUTH' BUT HERE COME GUBRATS ON THE RAIL WITH 'UNFORESEEN STUBBORNESS'.....HARRY IS BRINGING UP THE REAR WITH A 'CLEAR DISREGARD OF EXPANSION'.

WE ARE AT THE THREE QUARTERS MARK AND HARRY STOTTLE IS MAKING HIS MOVE, THE JOCKEY HAS PUT THE SALARY CAP, ERR SORRY I MEAN WHIP, TO HIM AND HIS IGNORANCE FLATCAP IS STAYING ON...GUBRATS IS STILL IN IT DUE TO HIS CONSTANT NEGATIVITY FOR THE' FUTURE OF THE GAME'.

THEY ARE APPROACHING THE FINISH LINE HARRY NOSE TO NOSE WITH GUBRATS, PARKY IS HANGING IN THERE BUT SEEMS TO BE REFUSING TO CHANGE HIS GATE ONE  IOTA AND IS FALLING BACK.  EVEN THOUGH HE IS LOSING PARKY REFUSES TO CHANGE ANYTHING.  OH MY LORD PARKY HAS BROKEN ON THE RAIL!, YET HE STILL REFUSES TO CHANGE ANYTHING...HES ALL FOR LIQUIDATION.

ALMOST THERE, OH MY GOD! THERE HE IS COMING OFF THE THIRD RAIL LIKE A THUNDERBOLT, HE IS CATCHING THEM ALL AT THE LINE HE HAS WON BY A NOSE OUT OF THERE.  COMPLETELY OUT OF NOWHERE BUT GUIDED BY COMPLETE STUBBORNESS,  A SHORT SIGHTEDNESS THAT FEW POSSESS DRIVE HIM FOLLOWED ONLY BY A LOVE OF THE CROWD NUMBERS.

CONGRATS YELL ALL IN THE AGING GALLERY OF OLD MEN TO.......TO THE MAN OF KENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

HE HAS WON THE NAYSAYERS CUP...HE WILL BE TAKING A MANAGEMENT POSITION WITH GOOLE RLFC (founded 1901, folded 1902).

Tight race that one.Not surprising with their outlook in regard to the future of the game.

[ELBOWSEYE]

8 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Melbourne do plenty for player development. Ask Gareth Widdop (!)

All coaches and players are imported from RL hotbeds , same as Toronto, they work on junior rugby but they still can't fulfil the same playerpool of local players you expect from a team in its third year and Melbourne have had millions of dollars and years of effort with only a couple of pro players coming from the area. We all praise Melbourne but are quick to expect miracles from a fledgling club in a new market, we expect them to reach higher standards than clubs from the heartlands pber here.

[RP London]

9 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

There will be a short-term spike in Super League interest for sure. More national newspaper column inches, more web stories and more TV news coverage. 100% guaranteed.

But after the novelty of a Canadian team in Super League fades, as people see they are as Canadian as mushy peas, as they perhaps aren’t quite as competitive as hoped, then where is the value to Super League if no NA TV deal and no player development? Finding it hard to see.

I dont get this.. its the same with the Swinton to Manchester thread... "just changing the name to Manchester wont make any difference" no of course but it allows you to do things you cannot do as Swinton.. "yeah but just changing the name to Manchester wont make any difference" no but you can market the club better and entice more people into it.. "yeab but just changing the name.... "oh FFS no one is saying that is ALL You are going to do.. 

Here you say about the positives in the first paragraph.. and there are a lot and these can be worth A LOT to a sport that is struggling for that exact thing.. but you then go on as if ALL they are going to do is come into the league, have a party and say "we've done it"... It is just the START of what they can do, by being in Super League they can develop further and do the things that you are talking about.. it s easier getting a TV deal when in the top division, they may need a year or two to prove the concept to the tv but it would be easier. By being top level do you become an option to players that at the moment just dont "get it"?? Why would they not be as competitive as hoped (look at Salford this year etc)?? 

A huge amount of assumptions you have made in the last paragraph are based on Toronto doing nothing with their Super League status (Which is fair as no one in the UK does much from year to year) but in the past couple of years I'd argue Toronto have proven that they would at least TRY to exploit it.

[Krzzystuff]

11 hours ago, Kayakman said:

AND THEY'RE OFF.

PARKY IS IN THE LEAD FOR 'OBLIVIOUS TO THE TRUTH' BUT HERE COME GUBRATS ON THE RAIL WITH 'UNFORESEEN STUBBORNESS'.....HARRY IS BRINGING UP THE REAR WITH A 'CLEAR DISREGARD OF EXPANSION'.

WE ARE AT THE THREE QUARTERS MARK AND HARRY STOTTLE IS MAKING HIS MOVE, THE JOCKEY HAS PUT THE SALARY CAP, ERR SORRY I MEAN WHIP, TO HIM AND HIS IGNORANCE FLATCAP IS STAYING ON...GUBRATS IS STILL IN IT DUE TO HIS CONSTANT NEGATIVITY FOR THE' FUTURE OF THE GAME'.

THEY ARE APPROACHING THE FINISH LINE HARRY NOSE TO NOSE WITH GUBRATS, PARKY IS HANGING IN THERE BUT SEEMS TO BE REFUSING TO CHANGE HIS GATE ONE  IOTA AND IS FALLING BACK.  EVEN THOUGH HE IS LOSING PARKY REFUSES TO CHANGE ANYTHING.  OH MY LORD PARKY HAS BROKEN ON THE RAIL!, YET HE STILL REFUSES TO CHANGE ANYTHING...HES ALL FOR LIQUIDATION.

ALMOST THERE, OH MY GOD! THERE HE IS COMING OFF THE THIRD RAIL LIKE A THUNDERBOLT, HE IS CATCHING THEM ALL AT THE LINE HE HAS WON BY A NOSE OUT OF THERE.  COMPLETELY OUT OF NOWHERE BUT GUIDED BY COMPLETE STUBBORNESS,  A SHORT SIGHTEDNESS THAT FEW POSSESS DRIVE HIM FOLLOWED ONLY BY A LOVE OF THE CROWD NUMBERS.

CONGRATS YELL ALL IN THE AGING GALLERY OF OLD MEN TO.......TO THE MAN OF KENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

HE HAS WON THE NAYSAYERS CUP...HE WILL BE TAKING A MANAGEMENT POSITION WITH GOOLE RLFC (founded 1901, folded 1902).

If there is an award on the forums for best written story this has got t be it! a future classic piece of RL literature.