Private Equity

[Blind side johnny]

I am hearing rumours, presently completely unsubstantiated, of an attempt to get a buy-in to SL by private equity partners, in a similar way that Premier Rugby did with CVC Capital. I am surprised that nothing has been picked up be the media but I do understand that discussions have moved ahead.

Anyone else picked up on this rumour, or is it baloney?

[Click]

I remember a few podcasts discussing it about a month or so ago, but nothing since

[Man of Kent]

If it’s CVC be afraid. Be very afraid.

[TboneFromTO]

With private equity firms I would imagine there would be a NDA in place until atleast a certain level has been completed.

Their investors would want to hear from them and not the press I would believe

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

3 hours ago, Click said:

I remember a few podcasts discussing it about a month or so ago, but nothing since

I'm sure it was mentioned on this very forum too.

Edit: from July

 

[Mark S]

There seems to be quite a few private equity funds being set up on Manchester at the moment.

[Chamey]

5 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

If it’s CVC be afraid. Be very afraid.

There's one potential reason for CVC to have commercial control over PRL and SLE, and it doesn't end well for at least one of the two.

[Man of Kent]

Just now, Chamey said:

There's one potential reason for CVC to have commercial control over PRL and SLE, and it doesn't end well for at least one of the two.

Quite. 

[saintspete83]

41 minutes ago, Chamey said:

There's one potential reason for CVC to have commercial control over PRL and SLE, and it doesn't end well for at least one of the two.

I got laughed at on twitter a few seasons back for suggesting that rugby league is going to end up in the brown stuff cash wise and then along will come RU with a broadcaster or huge ££ from an investor and they will hoover up the top northern RL sides that geographically fill the spaces that Union need to make the profession domestic league fully national. The RL clubs will be left with no choice but to accept the ££. 

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

I got laughed at on twitter a few seasons back for suggesting that rugby league is going to end up in the brown stuff cash wise and then along will come RU with a broadcaster or huge ££ from an investor and they will hoover up the top northern RL sides that geographically fill the spaces that Union need to make the profession domestic league fully national. The RL clubs will be left with no choice but to accept the ££. 

They won't end up with the top Northern sides. Fans would dessert those teams because strangely enough if the fans of the said teams wanted to watch Union then they would already be doing so.

[saintspete83]

10 minutes ago, Damien said:

They won't end up with the top Northern sides. Fans would dessert those teams because strangely enough if the fans of the said teams wanted to watch Union then they would already be doing so.

I agree fans would dessert those teams but new ones over time would be found. Id imagine there would be big money involved so that would cover any attendance losses. RU knows how to sell its sport. 

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

I agree fans would dessert those teams but new ones over time would be found. Id imagine there would be big money involved so that would cover any attendance losses. RU knows how to sell its sport. 

Well evidently it doesn't in the North and struggles to do so beyond the social club scene.

Strangely enough Rugby League fans are fans of the game because they like Rugby League. Many don't like, and indeed detest RU for all it stands for and for all that it has done. What you propose is just as alien to me as a RL club switching to say football or any other sport. Many RL fans that I know would just follow their football teams instead. RU is a different sport like any other.

If Wigan switched to RU you can be sure as hell that a new Wigan RL club would be set up to replace it. There are 3 RU clubs already in Wigan that people could watch and support if they were that way inclined. The town has had top flight RU clubs, as had Leeds. Few are interested. This is similar in many places.

[GUBRATS]

13 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

I agree fans would dessert those teams but new ones over time would be found. Id imagine there would be big money involved so that would cover any attendance losses. RU knows how to sell its sport. 

You seriously believe the population of Wigan would eventually go watching RU ? , How many decades do you believe it would take ?

[saintspete83]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You seriously believe the population of Wigan would eventually go watching RU ? , How many decades do you believe it would take ?

They would tap into the region, Preston, chorley, skem, bolton and other parts of lancs. Look at wasps,  they moved them 110 miles to coventry in December 2014 and now attract 15k+ to games and have also had 30k+ at home matches. Union could put a premiership match on at anfield or Newcastle and they would attract more then 1 day of magic. Union may not have much of a foothold in the north but its profile is probably still higher. 

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, saintspete83 said:

They would tap into the region, Preston, chorley, skem, bolton and other parts of lancs. Look at wasps,  they moved them 110 miles to coventry in December 2014 and now attract 15k+ to games and have also had 30k+ at home matches. Union could put a premiership match on at anfield or Newcastle and they would attract more then 1 day of magic. Union may not have much of a foothold in the north but its profile is probably still higher. 

So why bother buying out Wigan if you're after people from Preston , Chorley , Bolton ? Haven't you heard of Preston Grasshoppers ? , Skem ? , Seriously ? , Liverpool overflow , all football , there's a few Union clubs there for them 

You still wouldn't have Wiganers watching union , as Damien has pointed out , new Wigan club set up straight away , playing out of the LSV for a year till returning to the DW 

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

They would tap into the region, Preston, chorley, skem, bolton and other parts of lancs. Look at wasps,  they moved them 110 miles to coventry in December 2014 and now attract 15k+ to games and have also had 30k+ at home matches. Union could put a premiership match on at anfield or Newcastle and they would attract more then 1 day of magic. Union may not have much of a foothold in the north but its profile is probably still higher. 

Might happen in St Helens 

[Chamey]

Obviously ny merge would be fraught with massive difficulties, and at absolute max the selected clubs in the top tier (Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, Hull?) would retain half their crowds. But CVC would see it as a relatively low risk gambit, £30m pieces of silver is nothing compared the potential reward of a true national league.

A large part of it would be dressing it up by portraying the alternative as a no go, for example saying that the tv deal on offer was not enough and would cause the sport to go semi pro again with a large amount of clubs going bust.

I don't think that it'll happen, but struggle to see the other reasons for them to do it.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Chamey said:

Obviously ny merge would be fraught with massive difficulties, and at absolute max the selected clubs in the top tier (Leeds, Wigan, ST Helens, Hull?) would retain half their crowds. But CVC would see its relatively low risk gambit, £30m pieces of silver is nothing compared the potential reward of a true national league.

A large part of it would be dressing it up palatably by portraying the alternative as a no go, for example saying that the tv deal on offer was not enough and would cause the sport to go semi pro again.

It's irrelevant what CVC sees or what CVC wants.

The very logic that RL fans, players and clubs are all simply closet RU fans and RU wannabees is frankly bizarre. Any RL club that switched would be quickly replaced by a new RL club. If there was no Rugby League then the vast majority of people would watch Football. The RL towns would become Football towns like the great Football towns and cities in the North. Wigan, Warrington, Leigh etc would become as much Football towns as Bolton or Burnley. To think that there is this latent RU interest and support amongst RL people and that they are just secretly longing to switch to RU beggers belief.

RU trolls on here have long scoffed at the idea that some RL fans think RU followers would simply switch to RL once exposed to the sport but then oddly think the same kind of thing would happen in reverse in a far worse scenario.

[Manx RL]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

It's irrelevant what CVC sees or what CVC wants.

The very logic that RL fans, players and clubs are all simply closet RU fans and RU wannabees is frankly bizarre. Any RL club that switched would be quickly replaced by a new RL club. If there was no Rugby League then the vast majority of people would watch Football. The RL towns would become Football towns like the great Football towns and cities in the North. Wigan, Warrington, Leigh etc would become as much Football towns as Bolton or Burnley. To think that there is this latent RU interest and support amongst RL people and that they are just secretly longing to switch to RU beggers belief.

RU trolls on here have long scoffed at the idea that some RL fans think RU followers would simply switch to RL once exposed to the sport but then oddly think the same kind of thing would happen in reverse in a far worse scenario.

Wigan already is a football town.

[Chamey]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's irrelevant what CVC sees or what CVC wants.

The very logic that RL fans, players and clubs are all simply closet RU fans and RU wannabees is frankly bizarre. Any RL club that switched would be quickly replaced by a new RL club. If there was no Rugby League then the vast majority of people would watch Football. The RL towns would become Football towns like the great Football towns and cities in the North. Wigan, Warrington, Leigh etc would become as much Football towns as Bolton or Burnley. To think that there is this latent RU interest and support amongst RL people and that they are just secretly longing to switch to RU beggers belief.

RU trolls on here have long scoffed at the idea that some RL fans think RU followers would simply switch to RL once exposed to the sport but then oddly think the same kind of thing would happen in reverse in a far worse scenario.

Not if SLE sells CVC commercial control of the competition. Then what CVC wants is the word.

Yep totally agreed, it's a stupid idea. The sports are very different games. That being said I see no opinion to revise what I said in June:

Quote

Private equity is mental. Sharp suits by day, straitjackets by night.

Take the 13 Prem RU clubs, add Leeds, Hull, St Helens, Warrington, Wigan and the P14 RU (minus Italy and SA) and you have a pan British Isles league, nice and lucrative for a big tv contract.

4 conferences of 7. Home and Away your own conference (12 games), Home or away a second conference (7), then your equivalent finisher in the other two conferences (2). That gives you 21 games, welcome to NFL British Isles style.

However it all falls apart when you consider that the five crossover clubs would lose 90% of support overnight, and given history it would be mad, however the total cost of putting it together would be half a billion or less, so they'd consider it a low risk high reward gamble, knowing that they could likely salvage most of the initial money even if it went badly.

I've worked with enough small and medium sized businesses who have investors who seemed like they only meant the best only to see them absolutely screw the company with mad agendas and ideas, hence it's always worth bearing in mind the worst case.

It'd be a big flaming failure, you can see that, I can see that. Can the Oxbridge luvvies at 111 The Strand who believe that the north begins at Watford see that?

Luckily the furthest this is likely to get is a thought exercise.

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Manx RL said:

Wigan already is a football town.

It's not but whether you think it is or not is irrelevant to the point made. That is unless you are seriously trying to suggest it's currently as big a football town as Bolton or Burnley which it plainly isn't.

[Damien]

20 minutes ago, Chamey said:

Not if SLE sells CVC commercial control of the competition. Then what CVC wants is the word.

CVC do no control RU. There is absolutely no reason to think that RL would cede compete control either. Even if it did happen control over a Super League competition does not mean being able to force clubs to switch to other sports and other competitions either. CVC wouldn't own clubs, they would simply own the competition. They wouldn't be able to stop replacement RL clubs being setup and RL fans switching en masse.

It's a frankly laughable concept and if CVC really wanted 4 or more RU clubs in the North then they could do it far more cheaply and more successfully than going anywhere near Rugby League.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

CVC do no control RU. There is absolutely no reason to think that RL would cede compete control either. Even if it did happen control over a Super League competition does not mean being able to force clubs to switch to other sports and other competitions either. CVC also wouldn't own clubs, they would own the compensation. They wouldn't be able to stop replacement RL clubs being setup and RL fans switching en masse.

It's a frankly laughable concept and if CVC really wanted 4 or more RU clubs in the North then they could do it far more cheaply and more successfully than going anywhere near Rugby League.

Indeed , only recently they could have purchased a state of the art Iconic stadium for a very modest price and set up a top tier union clubs to play out of it on our doorstep , and had an anchor tenant to charge to play in it as well 

[NERugbyDad]

1 hour ago, saintspete83 said:

They would tap into the region, Preston, chorley, skem, bolton and other parts of lancs. Look at wasps,  they moved them 110 miles to coventry in December 2014 and now attract 15k+ to games and have also had 30k+ at home matches. Union could put a premiership match on at anfield or Newcastle and they would attract more then 1 day of magic. Union may not have much of a foothold in the north but its profile is probably still higher. 

The Falcons have played a home game at St James each of the last 2 years, attendances were 30k the first year and 27k the second so around the same as Magic Weekend Sundays at St James (lowest 25.5k to highest 30k) but a good bit under all the Magic Weekend Saturdays (lowest 35k to highest 41k).

Union does currently have a higher profile than League in the North East but League is making inroads and this can only be helped by the 5 World Cup games coming to the region in 2021 and who knows maybe the return of Magic Weekend.

[Manx RL]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

It's not but whether you think it is or not is irrelevant to the point made. That is unless you are seriously trying to suggest it's currently as big a football town as Bolton or Burnley which it plainly isn't.

It is.