Dunbar Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 Just now, Padge said: I am on my phone. I will and find it later when I have my pc at hand. Ok thanks. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 This what Smith said in August which implies there are no rules laid down about fielding weakened teams. “What I’m suggesting is in years gone by there have been certain rules and regulations about fielding certain quality of teams. We’ve just left ourselves open as a sport now that anyone weak, anybody can decide to put out any kind of team they want for their own reasons. “We’ve got no regulation over that anymore "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: This what Smith said in August which implies there are no rules laid down about fielding weakened teams. “What I’m suggesting is in years gone by there have been certain rules and regulations about fielding certain quality of teams. We’ve just left ourselves open as a sport now that anyone weak, anybody can decide to put out any kind of team they want for their own reasons. “We’ve got no regulation over that anymore If there have been these rules in the past then he himself has blatantly ignored them. And of course the bit of the quote you conveniently left out: “We’ve got no regulation over that anymore and whilst I’d be tempted to do it myself at certain stages… last week I probably didn’t put out the best team on paper but I certainly put out the best team that could physically cope. He also admits to not putting out his best team the week before but it seems okay for him to do that and make that choice but not other coaches to have the same perogative. Maybe Saints felt that their weakened team was the best team to physically cope at the stage of the season too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Setter Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 The thing is, Holbrook got caned by fans of both his own and other clubs at the end of last season for playing full strength sides each week, only to fall in both semi-finals. I seem to remember most comments on here being of a critical nature, not commending him for his integrity. Even if a hard rule came into place preventing a club from doing this, there’s no real way to enforce it - unless of course we employ some independent Doctors at great expense whose sole job it is to go to every club each week to check whether a player is truly injured or just being rested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 Where is the line on this even drawn. Is Smith having a squad rotation policy at Warrington not fielding weakened teams? When a team rests 3 or 4 players is that not fielding a weakened team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, Damien said: If there have been these rules in the past then he himself has blatantly ignored them. And of course the bit of the quote you conveniently left out: “We’ve got no regulation over that anymore and whilst I’d be tempted to do it myself at certain stages… last week I probably didn’t put out the best team on paper but I certainly put out the best team that could physically cope. He also admits to not putting out his best team the week before but it seems okay for him to do that and make that choice but not other coaches to have the same perogative. Maybe Saints felt that their weakened team was the best team to physically cope at the stage of the season too. I'm not the biggest fan of Smith, a lot of the time he comes across as arrogant. But here he is highlighting an area where he feels the competition can be improved... his team are safe and he even has the decency to admit (in your quote) that squad management is not easy. I'm not sure why everyone is making this a personal attack on him. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 39 minutes ago, fairfolly said: All right, come on then tell me,who knows whether Saints would have beat London anyway even if they had put a full first team out. O.K. they might have had a much better chance but there is no guarantee they would have won.Remember they were odds on to beat Catalan in last years semi, they were odds on to beat Warrington in this years Final,how did they do in those games, they lost them both.There is no such thing as a guaranteed win, ask Leeds when they played Bradford in this years Cup and Bradford only finished 6th in the Championship.Anybody who has played professional sport knows nothing is guaranteed.Norwich were 16/1 yesterday to beat Man. City yet they won.Smith is a whinger,it is his job to prepare H.K.R. to win games . He needs to concentrate on his own job and not bother about other teams.Will we here the same at the end of next season when they are in the bottom 4 again? I got 34/1 on Norwich to win, which was ridiculous odds in a league game even considering our injury crisis. I don’t Smith is whining though, he’s got a valid point and he’s waited until after they’re stayed up to make it, precisely so he wouldn’t be seen to be whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 31 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Ok thanks. Here you go look at theses sections. General Competition Rules Full Strength Squad Section B1:10 - 15 Squad Declaration System Section B1:21 - 22 Basically you run fall foul of the integrity of the competition clause in the rules, but coaches always argue that they put out a squad they thought were capable of winning the game. TheRFL have just about given up on trying to enforce it. Since the game comes under little media scrutiny the integrity only gets questioned by people like Smith within the game and supporters who will always see it from the viewpoint of their club. This was tightened up when coaches started producing 'sick notes' from club doctors declaring players unfit so they could rest them for a 'big game'. That is why the squad system came in I believe. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Reiver Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 Classic deflection tactic. If he wasn’t choosing this, it would be London’s playing surface, or something else. Choice of words is to deflect from a coach who has been unable to coach his team and left relying on others results (most of his tenure and particularly) on the last day of the season to avoid relegation. He had his big chance on the 6 September to put the matter to bed but failed to provide the coaching skills to achieve it. Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted September 15, 2019 Author Share Posted September 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Southern Reiver said: Classic deflection tactic. If he wasn’t choosing this, it would be London’s playing surface, or something else. Choice of words is to deflect from a coach who has been unable to coach his team and left relying on others results (most of his tenure and particularly) on the last day of the season to avoid relegation. He had his big chance on the 6 September to put the matter to bed but failed to provide the coaching skills to achieve it. We could say the same about the bottom half of the table. Remember he inherited a team from one a extremely successful international coach. If you look at his record, he has had ups and downs and nightmares, but overall comes across as a very positive coach. I agree in what he says and if it wasnt London it would be someone else. Freedom of speech doesnt just apply to this Forum and in this instance he putting forward a suggestion to improve things. We are missing the point and turning this into a TS character assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 26 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I'm not the biggest fan of Smith, a lot of the time he comes across as arrogant. But here he is highlighting an area where he feels the competition can be improved... his team are safe and he even has the decency to admit (in your quote) that squad management is not easy. I'm not sure why everyone is making this a personal attack on him. I don't see any personal attacks and its certainly not from my point of view. Its just the facts as I see them and I certainly see some very hypocritical observations. You disagree and that's fine but please don't use the personal attack angle because its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Lowdesert said: We could say the same about the bottom half of the table. Remember he inherited a team from one a extremely successful international coach. If you look at his record, he has had ups and downs and nightmares, but overall comes across as a very positive coach. I agree in what he says and if it wasnt London it would be someone else. Freedom of speech doesnt just apply to this Forum and in this instance he putting forward a suggestion to improve things. We are missing the point and turning this into a TS character assassination. My problem with is that he thinks rules don't exist to cover it and they do. It is like feeding scrums, it is ignored. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Boy Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 The real point here is should Chester have been allowed to pick a full strength side? Money can't buy you happiness! It can buy you beer and that's a bit like happiness in a glass! "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." Sir Winston Churchill Some folks are wise and some are otherwise! Tobias Smollett "I distrust camels, and anyone else who can go a week without a drink." Joe E Lewis "Look at the ffing state of that"! My mate on the Avenue last Friday whilst pointing to a scantily clad young lady and spitting a mouthful of beer out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Cheshire Setter said: The thing is, Holbrook got caned by fans of both his own and other clubs at the end of last season for playing full strength sides each week, only to fall in both semi-finals. I seem to remember most comments on here being of a critical nature, not commending him for his integrity. Even if a hard rule came into place preventing a club from doing this, there’s no real way to enforce it - unless of course we employ some independent Doctors at great expense whose sole job it is to go to every club each week to check whether a player is truly injured or just being rested. Holbrook got criticised for not using the squad system as a means of rotation and rest, which it is there for. Giving the odd player with a niggling injury recovery time and blooding youngsters is what should happen. Holbrook is guilty of going from one extreme go the other. The best example of a coach using his squad in recent years was Shaun Wane, but even then he fell foul when rampant gastroenteritis ran through the squad. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenGilesRL Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/12209/7852664/smith-no-excuses "We have rested and rotated all season" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 36 minutes ago, Damien said: I don't see any personal attacks and its certainly not from my point of view. Its just the facts as I see them and I certainly see some very hypocritical observations. You disagree and that's fine but please don't use the personal attack angle because its not. Fair enough. But the point is we are discussing Smith and what he has done in the past rather than the merits of what he is saying. I also don't like hypocrisy but he is very much linking his comments on playing weakened teams to the introduction of relegation which wasn't there when he selected weakened teams. In this case I don't believe he is being hypocritical. This whole debate is tricky as I see the point of teams being allowed to rotate squads and choose whoever they decide but I also don't like the idea of teams picking up points in this way in a relegation battle. Overall, having absolutely no guidelines or rules in this area (as far as I can see) leaves the whole thing open to abuse. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 24 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Overall, having absolutely no guidelines or rules in this area (as far as I can see) leaves the whole thing open to abuse. I posted you the relevant sections earlier, you must have missed it. General Competition Rules Full Strength Squad Section B1:10 - 15 Squad Declaration System Section B1:21 - 22 Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, Padge said: I posted you the relevant sections earlier, you must have missed it. General Competition Rules Full Strength Squad Section B1:10 - 15 Squad Declaration System Section B1:21 - 22 Would be kind enough to provide a link please. Edit. Don't worry got them "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: Would be kind enough to provide a link please. Sorry I thought you said you had looked at the op rules and couldn't find the relevant bit and therefore I presumed you had a link. https://www.rugby-league.com/flipbooks/2019-operational-rules-tiers-1-3/mobile/index.html Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbruce Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 15 hours ago, Leonard said: And yet again. This was the League One West Wales Raider type team we beat in the first game. The revisionist history is unbelievable. St Helens: Welsby; Swift, Naiqama, Percival, Grace, Richardson, Fages; Lees, Roby, Thompson, Paulo, Peyroux, Knowles. Interchanges: LMS, Amor, Ashworth, Costello. Just to bump that team up I’m pretty sure Saints went into that game thinking that was a strong enough team to get the job done. Not many players who are outside the usual 17 in the starting line up and of the 3 that are (Welsby Swift and Richardson) both Swift and Richardson have plenty of first team experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, Padge said: Sorry I thought you said you had looked at the op rules and couldn't find the relevant bit and therefore I presumed you had a link. https://www.rugby-league.com/flipbooks/2019-operational-rules-tiers-1-3/mobile/index.html Yes, I have read these and they are ridiculously ambiguous. While the stated aim of 'full strength' is to maintain the integrity of the competition it outlines that: - a club must maintain a full strength squad. - the team in each game must endeavour to provide the best performance It could be argued that this also covers the selection of the team for each match but it could easily be argued the other way. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbruce Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 As a comparison this is the team Saints put out against Wakefield Match Summary Saints: Welsby, Swift, Makinson, Percival, Naiqama, Fages, Richardson, Roby, Thompson, Lees, Taia, Peyroux, LMS. Interchanges: Paulo, Amor, Ashworth, Bentley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: Yes, I have read these and they are ridiculously ambiguous. While the stated aim of 'full strength' is to maintain the integrity of the competition it outlines that: - a club must maintain a full strength squad. - the team in each game must endeavour to provide the best performance It could be argued that this also covers the selection of the team for each match but it could easily be argued the other way. But the rules are there, they are not enforced but they exist. Coaches weazle around them so I think the RFL have just given up. The last time I can think of them being applied was in the Long Gleeson fiasco when Saints put out the academy against the Bulls, oh dear Saints again. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Padge said: But the rules are there, they are not enforced but they exist. Coaches weazle around them so I think the RFL have just given up. The last time I can think of them being applied was in the Long Gleeson fiasco when Saints put out the academy against the Bulls, oh dear Saints again. I don't think the rule is there forbidding the selection of a weakened team. The rules state you must maintain a squad and the team you select must endeavour to win the game. It does not cover game day selection. It would be interesting to see what the rules were in previous years. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbruce Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 Haha the team that played against (we never played any weak teams) Hull KR. St Helens: Coote; Makinson, Naiqama, Costello, Grace; Lomax, Fages; Lees, Roby, Walmsley, Peyroux, Taia, Knowles. Interchanges: Paulo, Amor, Ashworth, Welsby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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