Robert Elstone Speaks...

[Kayakman]

36 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Actually I was referring to SL heartland clubs. Do you imagine that private equity investment would be interested in exploiting the opportunities in Wigan or Hull?

The thing is...there is a perfect natural conduit for getting big time money into SL...it is David Argyle.

David has many friends...however Elstone and Rimmer (in their collective MADNESS) are trying to shun him and ###### him off.

I KNOW!   I KNOW!  It is hard to believe but it is true.

[ojx]

5 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

Actually I was referring to SL heartland clubs. Do you imagine that private equity investment would be interested in exploiting the opportunities in Wigan or Hull?

Private equity would be the biggest mistake RL has ever made. Many seem to think this is free money, but that is only short term thinking. It will be selling the soul of the game and future revenue.

[cookey]

So who would receive this private equity money?

Clubs already in debt,so they can pay off loans?

Clubs who have semi derelict grounds which they have failed to improve in 25 yrs?

Clubs with average attendances below 5,000,which they have failed to improve?

Give the various clowns,sorry Chief Execs,upfront money for a percentage of future income and it would all be wasted within 5 yrs by either reclaiming their loans,further subsidising their small crowds or inflating salaries.So,I would suggest,the capital would disappear for no obvious improvement,whilst their revenue percentage would fall.Basically,what I am trying to say is who should receive any capital,already failing clubs? and what should they be able to do with the money?

Would Wigan just reduce their borrowings,does a club like Huddersfield with crowds of around 4,000 deserve more money,would Castleford waste it on more architect plans etc,etc.

Incidentally,the same applies and is already happening in rugby union.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, cookey said:

So who would receive this private equity money?

Clubs already in debt,so they can pay off loans?

Clubs who have semi derelict grounds which they have failed to improve in 25 yrs?

Clubs with average attendances below 5,000,which they have failed to improve?

Give the various clowns,sorry Chief Execs,upfront money for a percentage of future income and it would all be wasted within 5 yrs by either reclaiming their loans,further subsidising their small crowds or inflating salaries.So,I would suggest,the capital would disappear for no obvious improvement,whilst their revenue percentage would fall.Basically,what I am trying to say is who should receive any capital,already failing clubs? and what should they be able to do with the money?

Would Wigan just reduce their borrowings,does a club like Huddersfield with crowds of around 4,000 deserve more money,would Castleford waste it on more architect plans etc,etc.

Incidentally,the same applies and is already happening in rugby union.

Private Equity does not just give you money and let you spend it willy nilly... this is why they are dangerous bed fellows. Initially they will buy a steak in you, you can, I suppose, do what you like with that money.. but they will then demand quite a lot of you after that as they have you in their sticky grasp.. They will demand new stadia, they will tell you to move if they want you to.. lets be under no illusions they will run the game. 

Union 6 nations is a nice tournament and private equity want it as it is a cash cow and can become even more so, but if they decide that England v Wales is going to be played in New York then that is where it is going to be played. They wanted to buy into this "World League" but it HAD to be set up in a certain way, as soon as the governing bodies said no then it was off and they turned their attention to something else. 

If you are prepared to put up with the demands of Private Equity money then they could make a massive massive difference and they will invest heavily into things they can see a reward from but they are going to make you work for it!

[cookey]

Hi,indeed,

I would back the brains of pe against our various owners and administrators everyday.I fear that our people will think that essentially they are getting an upfront capital sum,for a reduced percentage of future income.I fear they would get an unpleasant surprise.

Would pe put up with the grounds at Cas and Wakefield,would they accept the crowds at Huddersfield and Salford,would they allow two clubs in Hull,would they allow Leigh into SL etc,etc.

To be honest,I cant see pe devoting capital to rl at the present time.Incidentally,a Chief Executive who is constantly 'too busy',is in my experience either in denial,has an addiction or is depressed.I trust this does not apply to us.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, cookey said:

Hi,indeed,

I would back the brains of pe against our various owners and administrators everyday.I fear that our people will think that essentially they are getting an upfront capital sum,for a reduced percentage of future income.I fear they would get an unpleasant surprise.

Would pe put up with the grounds at Cas and Wakefield,would they accept the crowds at Huddersfield and Salford,would they allow two clubs in Hull,would they allow Leigh into SL etc,etc.

To be honest,I cant see pe devoting capital to rl at the present time.Incidentally,a Chief Executive who is constantly 'too busy',is in my experience either in denial,has an addiction or is depressed.I trust this does not apply to us.

agree about a CEO being "too busy" it also smacks of "not confident to come under scrutiny"

in terms of plain what a PE would want.. with a little experience in this field I would say:

"Would pe put up with the grounds at Cas and Wakefield" - no absolutely not.. and probably, to be fair, one of them will have to go anyway.

"would they accept the crowds at Huddersfield" - no, and its a random sentimental attraction to have Huddersfield anyway so they are going to go

"would they accept the crowds at Salford" - possibly for now.. but they will need to work hard to get them up, but this is the "manchester team potential" that is the delay and gives them a grace period.. otherwise no

"would they allow two clubs in Hull" - yes for the moment as there are good crowds and there is something about a really strong local derby.. but they are both going to have to be on their metal to make sure they keep developing.

"would they allow Leigh into SL" - I would say no, there is a lot around it and I would guess they would look at other places which offer expansion and new markets ahead of Leigh...

PE will make some very harsh decisions that there is more potential money somewhere else.. let the old traditional one go. PE isnt stupid in terms of expecting fans to switch clubs, however, they are also not stupid in terms of where the money is to be made and sadly its not all about turnstiles.. they are bean counters at the end of the day and there is more money in looking at a bigger radical change than just jazzing up what we have will not do it for them.. if they lose a bit of money in it failing then that, also, is a risk that PE often takes.. the potential gain is always bigger than the potential loss, it is the first calculation they put in place when they make the offer.

BTW these are how I see PE making the decisions with the experience of PE that I have had they are not my opinion on whether the clus should stay or go but what I could see PE doing in the medium to long term.

[Blind side johnny]

6 hours ago, ojx said:

Private equity would be the biggest mistake RL has ever made. Many seem to think this is free money, but that is only short term thinking. It will be selling the soul of the game and future revenue.

I agree. Where do we think the initial money would go though? Buying, say, 50% of SL equity would mean that the cash would go to those holding the shares: for reinvestment or into a few deep pockets?

[Mr Wind Up]

Said it when he was hired, and I'll say it now.

A CEO from a premier league club is the last person who should've been given the job. 

The bloke didn't have to lift a finger at everton. Just had to pick up the paycheck as the league's broadcast revenues soared, all the while his club remained mired in mediocrity. The problem is that as everton CEO, he didn't have to think outside the box, he didn't have to innovate, he didn't have to learn how to reach and engage an audience, everything was handed on a platter - media support, fans attending, large revenue streams and tv deals that were handled by other people. 

His only seeming credential is that he was an RL fan who held a job in the premier league. 

[Guest]

The £500k p.a. he gets paid could go to London

[Gooleboy]

22 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

In other words, he think whatever he likes, but he has absolutely no power to make any decision because the clubs will do what ever they please.

So we've got a highly-paid - but powerless - mouthpiece for the SL clubs.

Spot on, he can't make any decisions and he isn't very inspiring either.

[whatmichaelsays]

PE would just be interested in growth - nothing more, nothing less. 

They'd be buying a stake in SLE and in turn, they would be expecting a return to be delivered through media rights, commercial revenue, merchandising and any other income stream. 

They won't suddently start demanding new stadiums in Castleford or Wakefield - it's neither their issue nor in their control. What they would however expect is that this sport starts reaching both bigger audiences and more valuable audiences in order to drive the value of those revenue streams upwards. That may, in the long run, mean moving the focus of Super League away from Castleford or Wakefield altogether. 

Depending on the level that any PE investor buys in at, the focus of any SL could look very different and it would invariably put a lot of heartland noses out of joint. 

[redjonn]

19 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Part of the problem is that Robert isn't a naturally inspirational speaker about the game, as you can see from his comments reported from Monday's media briefing.

It would be sensible for a CEO, when facing the media in that sort of forum, to have something significant to announce, preferably Grand Final related.

One thing I've been pressing Super League to do, for example, which may seem fairly minor in the wider scheme of things, is to pay tribute to all Super League's retiring players by honouring them at the Grand Final in front of all the fans who will be at Old Trafford.

If he had said on Monday that Super League will be doing that, it would at least have been a talking point and persuaded more people from clubs like Leeds to buy tickets to give one last goodbye to their departing stars.

Just on the retiring players bit... I thought Leeds did a good job with the x3 retiring players at the Leeds/Warrington last game of the season... x1 Warrington player Ben Westwood and the x2 Leeds Ablet and JJB.

It was good to see them acknowledge/include Westwood - would be good if all clubs did the same.

[redjonn]

17 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

The gap between the haves and have-nots would increase for sure but, hey, this is supposed to be an elite competition 

the difficult question is how do you get from A (the now) to B, whatever grand vision B is without losing so much that the sport die's in the journey to B never able to recover.  That delicate balancing is the difficult bit.

[Dave T]

51 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

PE would just be interested in growth - nothing more, nothing less. 

They'd be buying a stake in SLE and in turn, they would be expecting a return to be delivered through media rights, commercial revenue, merchandising and any other income stream. 

They won't suddently start demanding new stadiums in Castleford or Wakefield - it's neither their issue nor in their control. What they would however expect is that this sport starts reaching both bigger audiences and more valuable audiences in order to drive the value of those revenue streams upwards. That may, in the long run, mean moving the focus of Super League away from Castleford or Wakefield altogether. 

Depending on the level that any PE investor buys in at, the focus of any SL could look very different and it would invariably put a lot of heartland noses out of joint. 

Exactly as I see it. Getting a better ground for Wakey to play in aint gonna suddenly see extra tens of millions a year coming into the game. 

Funnily enough, PE may be the best opportunity to push the expnasion agenda many of us are supportive of.

[Mattrhino]

Just watched his interview on Rugby am and he is still calling them spurious. I don't know what his end goal is with them. 

He is much happier making vague promises and far off targets than handing the issues of now. 

[paulwalker71]

4 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Depending on the level that any PE investor buys in at, the focus of any SL could look very different and it would invariably put a lot of heartland noses out of joint. 

You know what? I don't think I have a problem with that idea...

[Man of Kent]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

Exactly as I see it. Getting a better ground for Wakey to play in aint gonna suddenly see extra tens of millions a year coming into the game. 

Funnily enough, PE may be the best opportunity to push the expnasion agenda many of us are supportive of.

RU clubs reportedly got a £15m-18m windfall from CVC earmarked for infrastructure investment.

Out of interest, what would you suggest is a wise use of that sort of money in RL other than facilities? 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

RU clubs reportedly got a £15m-18m windfall from CVC earmarked for infrastructure investment.

Out of interest, what would you suggest is a wise use of that sort of money in RL other than facilities? 

Wise is a tough one. Sensible investment may put the clubs and game on a more sound footing, but I don't see that doubling TV money money and bringing millions of quid in commercial income into the game.

Wise in terms of doing that may be improving facilities, backroom staff, clearing debts, youth development etc. Sustainability - but that is what we have gone through over the last 10 years or so, and tbh it is a bit boring!

Wise in terms of trying to get some relatively short term returns may be to go big on events, promotion, star players (huge money signings), expansion into London, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Newcastle etc. and going all out for new sponsors and media deals, and possibly investing in broadcasting infrastructure to take a touch more control of media deals. 

Some things are longer term investments and will never necessarily drive huge uplifts that may be demanded, and others are riskier, potentially built on sand foundations and may never deliver any benefits. 

I think a lot depends on the objective tbh.  

[whatmichaelsays]

20 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Wise is a tough one. Sensible investment may put the clubs and game on a more sound footing, but I don't see that doubling TV money money and bringing millions of quid in commercial income into the game.

I think the key issue is whether that investment goes into facilities and offerings that can attract the sorts of audiences that get sponsors, advertisers and broadcasters excited. 

It's no accident that developments at Headingley have been focused on increasing the supply of premium services and offerings. The capacity of the 'cheap seats' has fallen to be replaced by more seating options and better overall facilities. For Leeds, it's less about how many £250 standing season tickets they can sell and instead, about how many £380 seats they can fill and how many three-course meals they can serve. 

That development is about attracting a higher-value clientele and that is what will have a big influence on our negotiations with sponsors and broadcasters. There is already a comment on the Magic Weekend thread about how we can sustain so much travel in a "working class sport" and the truth is, we probably can't continue to be a predominently working class sport if the sport is going to grow beyond what it is.

Which is why I suspect that any private equity investment would put expansion very much on the agenda. A club like Leeds can justify huge investment in premium and corporate facilities - Leeds is a successful, growing city and there is a market to sustain that sort of service. Is there one in Castleford or suburbs of the Wigan Borough to make that sort of investment? I'm not so sure. 

What I do firmly believe is that increasing the value of RL's audience is the only realistic way to increase our value to broadcasters and that is what any PE investor will look very closely at. Broadcast rights are driven by a number of factors but the two biggest are the number of subscriptions that the content can drive (or that rely on that content) and the value of advertising slots around that content. If we continue to be in a position where the bulk of people watching RL are lower-value audiences who are cheap and easy to reach, there is no justification for Sky, BT or anyone else to offer us more than what we have and there is minimal appeal to sponsors.

If any of our clubs, be that Leeds, London, Castleford or Widnes, fail to show that they can change those audience dynamics, then its inevitable that the discussion around expansion will get an awful lot louder.  

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I think the key issue is whether that investment goes into facilities and offerings that can attract the sorts of audiences that get sponsors, advertisers and broadcasters excited. 

It's no accident that developments at Headingley have been focused on increasing the supply of premium services and offerings. The capacity of the 'cheap seats' has fallen to be replaced by more seating options and better overall facilities. For Leeds, it's less about how many £250 standing season tickets they can sell and instead, about how many £380 seats they can fill and how many three-course meals they can serve. 

That development is about attracting a higher-value clientele and that is what will have a big influence on our negotiations with sponsors and broadcasters. There is already a comment on the Magic Weekend thread about how we can sustain so much travel in a "working class sport" and the truth is, we probably can't continue to be a predominently working class sport if the sport is going to grow beyond what it is.

Which is why I suspect that any private equity investment would put expansion very much on the agenda. A club like Leeds can justify huge investment in premium and corporate facilities - Leeds is a successful, growing city and there is a market to sustain that sort of service. Is there one in Castleford or suburbs of the Wigan Borough to make that sort of investment? I'm not so sure. 

What I do firmly believe is that increasing the value of RL's audience is the only realistic way to increase our value to broadcasters and that is what any PE investor will look very closely at. Broadcast rights are driven by a number of factors but the two biggest are the number of subscriptions that the content can drive (or that rely on that content) and the value of advertising slots around that content. If we continue to be in a position where the bulk of people watching RL are lower-value audiences who are cheap and easy to reach, there is no justification for Sky, BT or anyone else to offer us more than what we have and there is minimal appeal to sponsors.

If any of our clubs, be that Leeds, London, Castleford or Widnes, fail to show that they can change those audience dynamics, then its inevitable that the discussion around expansion will get an awful lot louder.  

I'd agree with that, and I've often bemoaned the lack of focus on 'premium' sales.

I think it will take much more than that as these things are cultural and can often take a fair bit of time to reap the full rewards from. But we should certainly be focus on it with or without their investment.

[DC77]

13 hours ago, Mr Wind Up said:

Said it when he was hired, and I'll say it now.

A CEO from a premier league club is the last person who should've been given the job. 

The bloke didn't have to lift a finger at everton. Just had to pick up the paycheck as the league's broadcast revenues soared, all the while his club remained mired in mediocrity. The problem is that as everton CEO, he didn't have to think outside the box, he didn't have to innovate, he didn't have to learn how to reach and engage an audience, everything was handed on a platter - media support, fans attending, large revenue streams and tv deals that were handled by other people. 

His only seeming credential is that he was an RL fan who held a job in the premier league. 

I’d say that’s true. I’d also add he had very savvy CEOs at other clubs (mostly top clubs who bring in the best business heads) who increased revenue streams for their own clubs and the entire Premier League which he was able to benefit from. A Man U or Liverpool increasing their profile increases the profile for the entire league, and that benefit trickles down. Everton on their own would offer very little to the Premier League pie. In other words he (and the club) sponged off the top clubs. 

I’ve never heard an Everton fan say anything good about him.

[Lowdesert]

20 hours ago, RP London said:

Private Equity does not just give you money and let you spend it willy nilly... this is why they are dangerous bed fellows. Initially they will buy a steak in you, you can, I suppose, do what you like with that money.. but they will then demand quite a lot of you after that as they have you in their sticky grasp.. They will demand new stadia, they will tell you to move if they want you to.. lets be under no illusions they will run the game. 

Union 6 nations is a nice tournament and private equity want it as it is a cash cow and can become even more so, but if they decide that England v Wales is going to be played in New York then that is where it is going to be played. They wanted to buy into this "World League" but it HAD to be set up in a certain way, as soon as the governing bodies said no then it was off and they turned their attention to something else. 

If you are prepared to put up with the demands of Private Equity money then they could make a massive massive difference and they will invest heavily into things they can see a reward from but they are going to make you work for it!

Isn’t this PE suggestion just really mirroring the NRL model?  We know Elstone has been tasked for the new TV deal but how hard had he worked to copy what already exists?

Clubs and Players have stood in the way of the NRL enough, so really, the controlling methods may not be so extreme.  If it’s not in everyone’s interests, profit wise, I doubt your suggestions will happen.

I don’t see any issue with hard work either.  Iirc Carter came out and said how SL CEOs were looking at all areas to improve and streamline SL as a business.  Hard work needs to happen.  Progress on that has been about as ground breaking as Elstones release.

 

[The Future is League]

On 19/09/2019 at 00:15, Martyn Sadler said:

One of the problems with Robert is that he's extremely busy.

We have invited him several times to appear on RLBackChat to discuss Super League in depth, but he's always too busy.

He rarely returns phone calls, text messages or emails because he's too busy.

I was at a hugely enjoyable media dinner at Warrington last night, and part of the attraction was that Robert was supposed to be coming along. It was actually the main reason for me going.

But Robert ducked out of the event late in the day, because he was too busy, although great credit to the Wire for hosting a very enjoyable evening.

Sitting next to and chatting with Steve Price was a great consolation for not being able to meet Robert. Fortunately Steve wasn't too busy to be there.

So we can all be gratified to know that Robert is incredibly busy in organising and promoting Super League.

I just hope we see the results of his endeavours before too long.

 

He was on Rugby AM this week talking with Alex Simmons

[The Future is League]

20 hours ago, Leonard said:

The £500k p.a. he gets paid could go to London

Surely he doesn't get that amount

[Martyn Sadler]

3 hours ago, The Future is League said:

He was on Rugby AM this week talking with Alex Simmons

He was. That interview was done at the play-offs launch on Monday.

Did he fire you up with enthusiasm?