Cheap tickets and empty stadiums

[GUBRATS]

6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Play off games should be friday night and saturday afternoon for SL. Followed by saturday evening and Sunday for Championship. 

Why is this so hard to implement?

Because SKY want a Thursday night game , and pay for it 

[FearTheVee]

53 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The top 4 play off system of 1v4 and 2v3 saw good attendances at games.

It’s a poor decision to play more play off games, there simply isn’t the demand for them, they will generate no extra profit at all for the clubs involved.

If there is no demand for knock-out play-offs / challenge cup we might as well all give up.

We as fans whine a lot about the media taking us seriously, about the RFL not pushing the game, but then don’t turn out for the play-offs?

Both the standard of that game last night and the crowd it was played in front of made me worry for the sport. Really, really poor.

[Chrispmartha]

2 hours ago, creditwhereitsdews said:

It's hard to see how marketing or promoting this game was going to improve the crowd. Surely every Warrington and Castleford fan knew this game was on, and of its importance to their season. The hardcore fans are the prime audience and if they chose not to go, does this not suggest that there may be something wrong with the play-off format? The appeal just does not seem to be there. Even after 21 years of end of season play-offs it seems there is still a big difference in mentality between Australian and British RL fans. Would be very interesting to hear the opinions of those who chose not to go. A job for Super League maybe.

Marketing works, however, I do sort of see your point that the fans would have known it was on which is why I was shocked at the size of the crowd

[Dave T]

7 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Because Thursday nights are good for Sky and they ultimately pay for the right to dictate when games are played, Saturday afternoons are dominated by football during the playoffs 

if Warrington fans can’t be arsed going to see their team play a do or die playoff game even on a Thursday night there’s something wrong at the club IMO

To think this is a one-club issue (one that has increased its crowds this year) is ignorant and will lead to the wrong conclusions when making changes.

We have these conversations literally every single year. Every year.

The only time games like this have drawn good crowds is when they were included in the season tickets.

This game may be knockout, but it is basically a 3rd round Cup equivalent with two off form teams playing for a place in quarter finals next week.

[whatmichaelsays]

The real question is why the playoffs are something that struggle to get fans excited. Poor crowds for playoff games weren't just a thing last night. 

RL clubs in general have become too reliant on season ticket sales and this then makes it harder to 'up-sell' additional games. 

These sides have also met several times before this season. Elstone has spoken of fixture fatigue and in many respects, season ticket sales mask that effect as the season goes on - and expose it as the playoffs arrive and fans are asked to dip into their pocket. 

But the real thing to tackle is why fans aren't enthused by the playoffs. These games should have people fighting for tickets, yet the opposite is the case. Clearly the product and/or the market were selling to isn't right. 

[Dave T]

In the last playoffs before the Super 8s, Saints and Leeds got 7.2k and 7.1k for their first round games. 

The answer isnt being annoyed with fans or calling them pathetic.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

I wonder how many fans were saving for a possible Old Trafford Final appearance?

£20-30 last night to get in I imagine, a possible trip to Wigan/Salford next week is another £20-30 and petrol/coach fare/parking and the week after would be a trip to the winner of Wigan/Salford or Saints so, again, another £20-30 and travel costs. You’re looking at £60 for tickets and your travel costs on top, so you’re looking at approx £100 before you’ve even qualified for the Grand Final and you’re then looking at £20-85 for a ticket for that and again, your travel costs. 

You’re potentially asking people to pay £200+ in 23 days to watch their team. It’s a big ask of Warrington fans (and all fans for that matter), especially on top of having a ST and attending whatever you choose to outside of that in the form of away games, Catalans, the Cup Double Header and the Cup Final. 

[Dave T]

The one area I will criticise Wire is the on-field stuff. I have called out that it is boring beyond belief and maybe some fans would rather not pay to be bored. 

The influence of Aussie methodical coaches talking about process process process is a big danger for our game imho.

[gingerjon]

31 minutes ago, Dave T said:

To think this is a one-club issue (one that has increased its crowds this year) is ignorant and will lead to the wrong conclusions when making changes.

We have these conversations literally every single year. Every year.

The only time games like this have drawn good crowds is when they were included in the season tickets.

This game may be knockout, but it is basically a 3rd round Cup equivalent with two off form teams playing for a place in quarter finals next week.

It's not a one club issue and we all know to expect a drop off in the gate for the opening round of the play offs.

But that was a pretty steep drop and a very poor crowd last night.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's not a one club issue and we all know to expect a drop off in the gate for the opening round of the play offs.

But that was a pretty steep drop and a very poor crowd last night.

It was. I expected 7 to 7.5k to be honest.

But when we actually look at the historic figures maybe we shouldn't be overly surprised that two off form teams stumbling into the playoffs playing on a Thursday night with 5 days notice.

The last home game at Wire got almost double last night. That had season tickets.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

It was. I expected 7 to 7.5k to be honest.

But when we actually look at the historic figures maybe we shouldn't be overly surprised that two off form teams stumbling into the playoffs playing on a Thursday night with 5 days notice.

The last home game at Wire got almost double last night. That had season tickets.

Yes, I think 7.5k and it's in line. The worry is how far off that it was.

There's obviously no magic 'marketing' answer because people know about these games. I also don't think there's any point lowering ticket prices further because then clubs would presumably be running at a loss for extra stewarding etc.

I'm not sure I have an answer. I only know I'm not sure I've seen it on this thread yet.

[HawkMan]

I'll just throw this in the mix, but Manchester United were playing at home , very unusual for a Thursday night game at OT. There are I'm sure Wire fans that follow Man U, and with the winner of last nights play off game guaranteed another game, could some Wire fans be attracted to OT for a European game which I doubt was a ST match. Rare opportunity to get tickets for Red Devils.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yes, I think 7.5k and it's in line. The worry is how far off that it was.

There's obviously no magic 'marketing' answer because people know about these games. I also don't think there's any point lowering ticket prices further because then clubs would presumably be running at a loss for extra stewarding etc.

I'm not sure I have an answer. I only know I'm not sure I've seen it on this thread yet.

The only thing that would get last night's crowd to 10k respectability was if those who have bought their Super League season tickets to all home games would have had it included. An extra few quid last November to cover costs wouldn't have been noticed by fans but would have painted the game in a far better light last night.

If we want more fans in the ground these games have to be embedded into the season ticket. There are various ways to cost this. 

But the game has shown that it cares little for crowds otherwise they would have done something when Saints and Leeds got 7k last time, or the many many other times we have had this conversation.

Including the games in season tickets saw us get higher crowds for Super 8s games and Cup games versus Fev and Keighley and York at the HJ.

It isnt that complicated. My understanding is that come playoff time the funds are pooled anyway, so funding it should be really easy.

 

[Toby Chopra]

5 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

I'll just throw this in the mix, but Manchester United were playing at home , very unusual for a Thursday night game at OT. There are I'm sure Wire fans that follow Man U, and with the winner of last nights play off game guaranteed another game, could some Wire fans be attracted to OT for a European game which I doubt was a ST match. Rare opportunity to get tickets for Red Devils.

Or even just watch it on TV. 

More broadly, I do think there's an issue with both player and supporter fatigue by this time of the year, which harms the product, and interest in it. 

We've discussed at length before cutting the number of regular season fixtures, but it seems the clubs don't dare as they'd have to cut season ticket prices with no guarentee of higher sales - a risk they can't take as budgets are so tight. 

So here's a question for all you season ticket holders out there: if clubs reduced regular season games in the ST to 12 from 14, BUT also said that playoff games were included, would you be willing to pay the same price you do now? Is that a fair deal? 

If so, players would be fresher from a shorter season and playoff games would be much better attended. 

 

[Chrispmartha]

58 minutes ago, Dave T said:

To think this is a one-club issue (one that has increased its crowds this year) is ignorant and will lead to the wrong conclusions when making changes.

We have these conversations literally every single year. Every year.

The only time games like this have drawn good crowds is when they were included in the season tickets.

This game may be knockout, but it is basically a 3rd round Cup equivalent with two off form teams playing for a place in quarter finals next week.

Oh I don't think it's a one club issue, there is an issue for the whole league but I was shocked at how low the crowd was for the game last night, especially as Was did bring a fairly decent amount.

There has to be a way of incorporating them into the season tickets, but I do find it odd that ST holders will go all season then not go when it's actually a game where the season is on the line but maybe taking the option of not going is the way to go by including any playoff games in the ST price

[Dunbar]

We have people on this thread claiming that price/cost is a massive factor and others claiming price/cost had nothing to do with it.

Similarly, we have some claiming that including play off matches as season ticket games would have resulted in a better attendance and others claiming it wouldn't have an impact.

Some are claiming that the play off's are too convoluted and should be simpler... again others disagree

Finally, some claiming that the game being on a Thursday was the most telling factor.

I could go on.

Of course the answer is some combination of the above.  And as usual, the default answer is 'marketing' as if somehow persuading people to go and watch their team play in a sudden death potentially season ending fixture is the silver bullet.  There are plenty of fans who knew the game was on that didn't attend, marketing is not going to just persuade them to attend.

The key to changing any product to improve sales is understanding buyer behavior and motivations.  We cannot change the play off's or scheduling or ticketing policy until we understand why people didn't attend.  If we are honest, all of us are just guessing or projecting our own motivations or biases.  I assume that Warrington will be surveying their season ticket holders and using social media and face to face surveys to ask the important questions about what would be the critical factors to attending a play off game.

[Dave T]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

Oh I don't think it's a one club issue, there is an issue for the whole league but I was shocked at how low the crowd was for the game last night, especially as Was did bring a fairly decent amount.

There has to be a way of incorporating them into the season tickets, but I do find it odd that ST holders will go all season then not go when it's actually a game where the season is on the line but maybe taking the option of not going is the way to go by including any playoff games in the ST price

I do think if it was a Friday we would have pushed 7.5k but even that shouldn't be accepted.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

We have people on this thread claiming that price/cost is a massive factor and others claiming price/cost had nothing to do with it.

Similarly, we have some claiming that including play off matches as season ticket games would have resulted in a better attendance and others claiming it wouldn't have an impact.

Some are claiming that the play off's are too convoluted and should be simpler... again others disagree

Finally, some claiming that the game being on a Thursday was the most telling factor.

I could go on.

Of course the answer is some combination of the above.  And as usual, the default answer is 'marketing' as if somehow persuading people to go and watch their team play in a sudden death potentially season ending fixture is the silver bullet.  There are plenty of fans who knew the game was on that didn't attend, marketing is not going to just persuade them to attend.

The key to changing any product to improve sales is understanding buyer behavior and motivations.  We cannot change the play off's or scheduling or ticketing policy until we understand why people didn't attend.  If we are honest, all of us are just guessing or projecting our own motivations or biases.  I assume that Warrington will be surveying their season ticket holders and using social media and face to face surveys to ask the important questions about what would be the critical factors to attending a play off game.

We have evidence that shows if it is in the season ticket, more fans attend. Years and years of evidence.

In a non-sport world this is pretty much what I have done for the last 20 years at work. 

It is the biggest no brainer around.

Designing a cost model to embed these games in season tickets is the only way these games will draw crowds.

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I do think if it was a Friday we would have pushed 7.5k but even that shouldn't be accepted.

I agree, I'm a bit conflicted on Thursday night games, I as a viewer of SL on Sky (when Leeds aren't playing) I love Thursday night games and if I'm honest I prefer attending Thursday night games over Sunday games but I appreciate I'm probably in the minority on that one. Friday nights are my preferred nights to attend games though and fortunately for me Leeds prefer them too because the Corporate Sales are fr higher on a Friday night than any other day/night.

[RayCee]

11 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Even our friends over the ' pond ' will get more actual paying fans than that

Yeah, but they has a beer garden.

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We have evidence that shows if it is in the season ticket, more fans attend. Years and years of evidence.

In a non-sport world this is pretty much what I have done for the last 20 years at work. 

It is the biggest no brainer around.

Designing a cost model to embed these games in season tickets is the only way these games will draw crowds.

Agreed its a total no brainer for me, the playoff games need to somehow be included in the ST, people are always going to be more inclined to attend if they have already paid for it it really is that simple, the more difficult thing is how to do it, could there also be a way to include away playoff games in a home ST? infant could there be a way for clubs to sell full ST where all away games are included? not sure how it would work on a practical level but I would be interested in one if the clubs could do it, I've only missed one away game this season and I suspect there's a few fans that are similar to me, although in fairness I don't have children to consider and my wife is quite happy to get rid of me for one night during the week throughout the season

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We have evidence that shows if it is in the season ticket, more fans attend. Years and years of evidence.

In a non-sport world this is pretty much what I have done for the last 20 years at work. 

It is the biggest no brainer around.

Designing a cost model to embed these games in season tickets is the only way these games will draw crowds.

I think you are probably right.

And it may well be that the commercial team at Warrington would prefer 5k to pay to attend an additional fixture than include the cost of attending in the season ticket price.

This is the problem with these discussions, our preferences and those of the clubs may not be aligned.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I think you are probably right.

And it may well be that the commercial team at Warrington would prefer 5k to pay to attend an additional fixture than include the cost of attending in the season ticket price.

This is the problem with these discussions, our preferences and those of the clubs may not be aligned.

Yeah I may have made the point earlier that if the game is happy with low crowds for the biggest games of the year (and this will be on BBC One tomorrow lunchtime) then they are doing a great job.

Iirc playoffs profit is shared and goes into the SLE pot.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Agreed its a total no brainer for me, the playoff games need to somehow be included in the ST, people are always going to be more inclined to attend if they have already paid for it it really is that simple, the more difficult thing is how to do it, could there also be a way to include away playoff games in a home ST? infant could there be a way for clubs to sell full ST where all away games are included? not sure how it would work on a practical level but I would be interested in one if the clubs could do it, I've only missed one away game this season and I suspect there's a few fans that are similar to me, although in fairness I don't have children to consider and my wife is quite happy to get rid of me for one night during the week throughout the season

I dont think building these costs in would be that difficult tbh. 

When we have a £30m tv deal, plus millions and millions in season ticket sales we are talking a bit of a skimming exercise.

[Dunbar]

The pricing of season tickets is probably one of the most important decisions that a club makes.  We have seen across a lot of sports that season tickets have become a lot more popular and the de facto method for selling seats at clubs these days.  They are an 'easy' sell in terms of value for the supporters and commercially they are good for the clubs because generating revenue early helps massively with cash flow and the planning of costs and investments for the year.

But the pricing is critical.  A 10% or 20% increment in price could have a massively beneficial affect on revenue but equally it could affect volumes sold.  I hope there is a great deal of sophistication in their pricing models because it is a very important decision.  My personal view is that season tickets at most Super League clubs are at the low end of the pricing tolerance but we have anchored the price now and any increase (despite it still being remarkable value) would be perceived as a negative move.

My preference if I were selling attendance at a leading club would be to include all home games for the year in the price of a season ticket.  This includes home Challenge Cup ties as well as play off games and then all the clubs fans could share the whole season with the team and not have to fork out for additional tickets.  Any revenue share with the RFL/Super League could be agreed in terms of % of ticket price and the number of games.

But that would require the season ticket price to rise.  You would have to make some assumptions on loss of revenue for home play off's and Challenge Cup games and then factor that into the overall price.  I also think there is the extra factor of full houses - visibly vibrant clubs are far more likely to attract premier sponsors and increase revenue in other ways such as merchandising and game day spending.