Tommygilf Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 2 hours ago, GUBRATS said: Because SKY want a Thursday night game , and pay for it Do a championship playoff game then then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Tonks Sidestep Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 27 minutes ago, Dave T said: Yeah I may have made the point earlier that if the game is happy with low crowds for the biggest games of the year (and this will be on BBC One tomorrow lunchtime) then they are doing a great job. Iirc playoffs profit is shared and goes into the SLE pot. 'Share' of SL play off gate receipts are determined by SLE but without access to their rules who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmichaelsays Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 37 minutes ago, Dave T said: We have evidence that shows if it is in the season ticket, more fans attend. Years and years of evidence. In a non-sport world this is pretty much what I have done for the last 20 years at work. It is the biggest no brainer around. Designing a cost model to embed these games in season tickets is the only way these games will draw crowds. I think the debate around season tickets is arguably missing the point though. If we are relying on people to turn up to play-off games because there is almost a sense of obligation to (they've paid for it so they may as well), then it's not a healthy position to be in. For me the point is why are we in a position where people don't feel enthused about a play-off game. This is supposedly the key part of the season where the best teams fight it out for a chance at the biggest prize, yet the fans don't seem to really care. Is the product right? We have already heard Elstone talking about fixture fatigue - have season tickets merely papered over that crack for the last few weeks / months? Is it that the play-offs simply don't excite the wider public? If so, we need to change that. If the issue is that the audience we're trying to sell this to can't afford the price we're asking over the course of the play-off schedule, then we're trying to attract the wrong audience. Either way, the marketing isn't right. I like the top-five system. It feels like a proper 'play-off' system where we lose one competitor each week, rather than the top-four system that felt a little anti-climactic. But the game has to make this work. The play-offs are something that the sport should be able to sell for £20+ a ticket to more than 5,000 people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said: I think the debate around season tickets is arguably missing the point though. If we are relying on people to turn up to play-off games because there is almost a sense of obligation to (they've paid for it so they may as well), then it's not a healthy position to be in. For me the point is why are we in a position where people don't feel enthused about a play-off game. This is supposedly the key part of the season where the best teams fight it out for a chance at the biggest prize, yet the fans don't seem to really care. Is the product right? We have already heard Elstone talking about fixture fatigue - have season tickets merely papered over that crack for the last few weeks / months? Is it that the play-offs simply don't excite the wider public? If so, we need to change that. If the issue is that the audience we're trying to sell this to can't afford the price we're asking over the course of the play-off schedule, then we're trying to attract the wrong audience. Either way, the marketing isn't right. I like the top-five system. It feels like a proper 'play-off' system where we lose one competitor each week, rather than the top-four system that felt a little anti-climactic. But the game has to make this work. The play-offs are something that the sport should be able to sell for £20+ a ticket to more than 5,000 people. I'm up for a more philosophical debate around customer base etc. but we are playing in front of empty crowds now. We have built this customer base up over decades, we absolutely should be shifting it (as per the other thread) but we need to also work with what we have. And the question probably isnt about why they arent enthused, as I expect most will still watch the game. It is why they are not prepared to pay to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: They have now. If it was at a neutral ground they wouldnt have. And you would get higher attendances, you would have a year to sell them not 5 or 6 days It's an interesting idea. As we wouldn't know the participating teams for the year until a week before the game could you share with us some of the ideas you have for capturing the imagination of the attendees at these neutral venues. 7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: People arent not going because of the cost. What evidence do you have to support this claim? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogiron Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 9 hours ago, Chrispmartha said: If Leeds have a food season next year I think we’ll see a fair increase in attendances at Headingley, We have had 3 out of the 4 last years in a relegation scrap, a whole load of disruption with the stadium being upgraded (which to be fair the club have handled pretty well) and yet we’re still the best supported club in SL, They get so much right off the pitch they just need to get back to gemgbit right on the pitch. As for Warrington, tonight’s attendance was pathetic, I know they have done a lot of good things with the Marketing this year but did they have a big push for this game (I didn’t see anything on SM)? I thought Brett Ferres had been having a food season for the last 3 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bod Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Hopefully the crowds keep dropping and we eventually bin the play off system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmichaelsays Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 11 minutes ago, Dave T said: And the question probably isnt about why they arent enthused, as I expect most will still watch the game. It is why they are not prepared to pay to go. My question is around why they aren't enthused enough to pay to go. We see time and time again that for the right event or product, people invariably find the money for it. I think that talk around what should or shouldn't be included in a season ticket is papering over the cracks. If crowds are holding up because fans are turning up to games out of compulsion rather than a desire to be there, then we're giving ourselves bigger problems in the long-term - it will eventually erode the value of the season ticket and before long, we'll be back here talking about what else we should be chucking in for free on a £250 season ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Yesterday was the elimination final. Thats what it should be sold as. An event in an of itself. Whoever plays in it. The game is largely inaccessible to the majority of the country for the majority of the year. Give them 1 game, sell it to them and create a base to then sell the tickets to fans of those involved to. Yes, I understand that you want to sell the game to the neutral. I am asking how you would go about doing it. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 23 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Yesterday was the elimination final. Thats what it should be sold as. An event in an of itself. Whoever plays in it. The game is largely inaccessible to the majority of the country for the majority of the year. Give them 1 game, sell it to them and create a base to then sell the tickets to fans of those involved to. The rest of the year when people are paying these prices, the prices for other tickets which sell more, the price of other tickets which sell at prices much higher. We also see in many RL events that when we lower prices to even £5-£10 we dont see a huge influx of fans. The elasticity of demand just isnt that high. And that makes sense. £50 isnt out of the ordinary for tickets for events and we are much much lower than that. People arent not attending because the price is too high The make-up of matchday ticket sales is very low. I have seen the finances of a current Super League club (one who have been in Super League for years and have had success) and the amount of an attendance made up by ticket buyers and not ST’s was incredibly low. The number of “neutrals”, fans who attend as and when they can/want or out of town fans is low and I imagine it’s exactly the same across the M62 clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 20 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said: My question is around why they aren't enthused enough to pay to go. We see time and time again that for the right event or product, people invariably find the money for it. I think that talk around what should or shouldn't be included in a season ticket is papering over the cracks. If crowds are holding up because fans are turning up to games out of compulsion rather than a desire to be there, then we're giving ourselves bigger problems in the long-term - it will eventually erode the value of the season ticket and before long, we'll be back here talking about what else we should be chucking in for free on a £250 season ticket. We dont need to chuck stuff in free, we need to look at what we include and how much we charge for it. Buying habits and the season ticket culture has been a 25 year build up, it doesn't make sense that we expect people to use a different model for the same fans for something they have seen 14 times that year. Other sports see the same drop off but they dont ignore it and they have a bigger number going into the top of the funnel. RU includes some cup games, football goes with the compulsory purchase scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: i mean that would largely depend on the specifics of that particular event. But you have a year or so to do it. Get players out in to local schools, get them on local radio, advertising in the paper, target large local businesses to sell blocks of tickets getting players to visit them, the super league trophy etc. Its likely to be football grounds that we use so you have those fans to target in programs and on websites etc. As a fan of Rugby League I would love for that to work. I think a long term focus on games is absolutely correct for World Cup games and even if we were take the Challenge Cup semi's away from the heartlands for example. I fear that the equivalent of a quarter final without the teams being known for all but a week would be too hard a sell though. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Just now, Dunbar said: As a fan of Rugby League I would love for that to work. I think a long term focus on games is absolutely correct for World Cup games and even if we were take the Challenge Cup semi's away from the heartlands for example. I fear that the equivalent of a quarter final without the teams being known for all but a week would be too hard a sell though. Exactly. “Hi kids, I’m Chris Hill. We might get to the play-off’s in six months, so please tell your Dad’s and if you remember, please come along”. That just doesn’t work. 2020 should see the start of a big push in the host towns for the 2021 Rugby League World Cup, for example. You could do the same for Magic Weekend, too. However, you can’t do it for play-off’s, when people don’t know whose going to be in it until a week before the games kick-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: Then its a question of scale isnt it. I wouldnt be expecting to go in to this and sell 40k tickets year one. Maybe 5-10k + then the fans of the clubs actually competing give us a good base to work from. Its interesting you mention the challenge cup because it would do the same with that. Take the televised rounds to the people. Target some strategic cities, lets say Nottingham, Leicester and Milton Keynes. Give them 2 or 3 televised Challenge cup games each and a game or two in the play-offs. It doesnt matter who is playing get out there and sell rugby league. Take the game to them and see where we are in 5 years We would get a much bigger return (not just financial) from taking the game to these places than saturating Warrington with another game and nobody bothering to watch Leicester, Milton Keynes and Northampton?! That’s as small time as it comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 37 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said: My question is around why they aren't enthused enough to pay to go. We see time and time again that for the right event or product, people invariably find the money for it. I think that talk around what should or shouldn't be included in a season ticket is papering over the cracks. If crowds are holding up because fans are turning up to games out of compulsion rather than a desire to be there, then we're giving ourselves bigger problems in the long-term - it will eventually erode the value of the season ticket and before long, we'll be back here talking about what else we should be chucking in for free on a £250 season ticket. I very much agree with what you’re saying, it’s actually really concerning. The only thing I can pin it on is fixture fatigue which takes away the build up to the play offs. Too many games in the season, playing each other too many times, which takes away the build up and ability to effectively market the play off games. For me, we should be increasing the pricing for this standalone fixture to give it a sense of prestige. It is hardly going to effect the crowd much more than it already is I think the add-on option to a season ticket is a decent idea but it would probably only work for home games I’d be interested in feedback that Warrington do with their fan base as to why people didn’t go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark S Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 It doesn't help that the game still doesn't;'t know how to engage the media, either for new or PR opportunities. We now have the Union WC kicking off which is getting coverage on ITV and BBC which is not going to help. The questions is, why does RL struggle to get players, or recently retired players onto shows like Strictly or Celebrity Masterchef, or even Celebrity The Chase? I noticed that Martin Offiah is on Celebrity Hunted, he is yesterday's man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: What? A strategic plan around Leicester, Northampton and Milton Keynes is as small time as it comes. I genuinely can’t see any logic behind targeting those places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 10 hours ago, Chrispmartha said: Just to add, Leeds have offered different levels if ST for next year, you can now buy 3 or 5 game ‘packs’ so you can choose in advance which games you are going to attend and pay upfront for a discount, I think this could be a good Idea and lead to increased crowds for the ‘big’ games during the season I like this and what Leeds have done for ST for next year. They’ve been criticised in some quarters for their high ticket prices, which I think are justified to cover the cost of the great new facility. So to appease some fans, and those with less disposable income, they’ve offered much cheaper season tickets for those who want in the Western Terrace. I like that strategy - you pay for what you get. The 3 or 5 match deal is also a good idea. I was considering it but I’m happy just paying as and when (I probably go to about 8-10 games a year when commitments allow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Then its a question of scale isnt it. I wouldnt be expecting to go in to this and sell 40k tickets year one. Maybe 5-10k + then the fans of the clubs actually competing give us a good base to work from. Its interesting you mention the challenge cup because it would do the same with that. Take the televised rounds to the people. Target some strategic cities, lets say Nottingham, Leicester and Milton Keynes. Give them 2 or 3 televised Challenge cup games each and a game or two in the play-offs. It doesnt matter who is playing get out there and sell rugby league. Take the game to them and see where we are in 5 years We would get a much bigger return (not just financial) from taking the game to these places than saturating Warrington with another game and nobody bothering to watch I don't disagree with some of your thinking, long term initiatives with some commitment behind them is far more valuable than knee jerk events. But I don't think that the early rounds of the cup or the play off's are the way to do it. I would prefer clubs have strategic alliances with cities and take their games there. This way they can sell the brand and the players and not just the game. If we took some SL games on the road it would reduce the fixture fatigue we hear so much about as well. And a quick point on the cities; Leicester is just a crazy choice. That's like taking the early rounds of the Rugby Union Cup competition to Wigan and then wondering why nobody turns up to watch. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, DoubleD said: I like this and what Leeds have done for ST for next year. They’ve been criticised in some quarters for their high ticket prices, which I think are justified to cover the cost of the great new facility. So to appease some fans, and those with less disposable income, they’ve offered much cheaper season tickets for those who want in the Western Terrace. I like that strategy - you pay for what you get. The 3 or 5 match deal is also a good idea. I was considering it but I’m happy just paying as and when (I probably go to about 8-10 games a year when commitments allow) I would hope that there’s a subtle marketing push to those who’ve bought the 3 and 5 game packages to try and get those that have bought the 3 game package to possibly buy another in 2020 or to “upgrade” to a 5 game package in 2021 and the 5 gamers to think about renewing in 2021 or pushing up to a ST. It’s missed opportunities like this that really annoy me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: There are half a million people in the Leicester Urban Area, There are 250k people in milton keynes which is a fast growing, economically successful city, I dont know why you are talking about Northampton. Bloody hell, tired. Read Northampton, not Nottingham. I still don’t get why we’d target any of those places, it doesn’t seem logical in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: They are large, urban places with suitable stadiums. There’s very little Rugby League in all three places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: We are talking SL games (and CC games) on the Road. The ones which sell the least. What makes them unattractive to heartland fans doesnt make them unattractive to expansion areas. The RUWC took 2 early round games to Leeds and 66k. People did turn up to watch. Come on, if we are going to have a sensible conversation don't start creating equivalences between the early rounds of a domestic cup competition and a World Cup. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmichaelsays Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 39 minutes ago, Dave T said: We dont need to chuck stuff in free, we need to look at what we include and how much we charge for it. I say tomato, you say tomato, surely? The season ticket represents decent value but I maintain that it's dangerous to see it as a 'catch all' solution. At the start of the year, everyone knows they are buying 14 home games and nothing else. They are happy to buy a season ticket on those terms. The minute we start throwing more games into that season ticket package, we start this 'mission creep' that starts to cheapen the product further (even if the season ticket price goes up). Before you know it, you aren't just including the first round of the cup, you're creeping to a position where there are calls for the next round to be included, and then the next round - probably until the semi-finals. The same happens with the play-offs. The pendulum has arguably swung too far towards season tickets. It's obvious why clubs like them, but it has also led to neglecting efforts to drum up matchday sales and to 'sell' events. It means that when the time comes to start taking cash from people again, they can't do it. The play-offs should be a stand-out part of the season that people want to pay money for. The fact that they don't is what should alarm people - not the fact that they aren't included in the ST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Just now, scotchy1 said: I read your post as the RU World Cup going to Wigan. But if you took some Heinekin cup games to leeds they would probably sell. Even the Heineken Cup is not a like for like comparison. Taking early round Challenge Cup games to Leicester is like taking early Premiership Rugby Cup games to Wigan. In my opinion they would would fail. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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