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Fri 27 Sept: SL Semi Final: St Helens v Wigan Warriors KO 7.45pm (TV)


Who will win?  

53 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • St Helens
      29
    • Wigan Warriors
      24

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  • Poll closed on 27/09/19 at 18:45

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10 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I will be amazed if we keep Luke Thompson, though. He’s simply unplayable. I can’t imagine there are too many, in current form, out there that are better than him. 

A part of me is intrigued to see how he’d do in the NRL, as I think he could replicate or possibly better James Graham’s career over there, but the selfish Saints fan in me wants to see him retire at Saints having led us to trophies, having grown up as a kid pretending to live at his Nan’s house to keep himself out of the Wigan catchment area. 

Josh Papalli is for me the best prop running around at the moment, and Jared Waerea-Hargreaves the second.

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I thought Saints were outstanding and played some of their best rugby last night. I don't think there's any doubt that when Saints' pack is anywhere near their best they can't be matched. If they aren't at their best then of course they are beatable, Wire showed that, so there's still hope for Salford and Wigan in the Grand Final.

A result like this is something I worried about. The risk has been there for weeks but thankfully the team has probably competed beyond its means a little. Our pack is a weakness but one we've been able to overcome thanks to our outside backs. Most teams seem to have struggled to contain our backs and that's allowed our front row to revert to their Wane style of making fewer carries and having increased fitness for higher intensity defence. Saints last night were too big, too fit and too intense for us. Only Gildart looked a threat from our backline, while Williams had a decent game behind a comprehensively beaten pack. Without our backs making metres we grind to a halt.

This isn't necessarily a criticism of Wigan's pack. There are mitigating factors. O'Loughlin and Flower are still only a few games back after long layoffs and don't look anywhere near match fit. Partington is still a rookie and while he defends with intensity usually struggles to make metres. Byrne is a good prospect and has had some good performances but not first team quality just yet, but the very poor form of Navarette has necessitated his inclusion. Greenwood has also struggled for form which is why he was left out.

Farrell, Isa and Smithies do well in the back row but as a smaller forwards they are surrounded by other smaller forwards which compounds one of Wigan's biggest issues - the pack still lacks size and gets severely tested by big, mobile packs, of which Saints have by far the best. 

I'm glad Wigan have reached this stage of the playoffs but I'm not too disheartened by getting a hammering. The Saints pack is incredible and should be dominating if both teams play at their best. It's not reasonable to expect Wigan's younger forwards to compete with the likes of Thompson and Walmsley who are at the peak of their abilities, or some of the experience they have around them like Taia, Peyroux and LMS.

Lam highlighted the pack was weak at the start of the year, since then we've lost Hamlin and Tautai through indiscretions, lost Bullock to injury and only just had Flower and O'Loughlin return. The club is clearly trying to fix that for next year but for this year we're doing well to get something out of what we have.

The goal is clear now though. Try to beat Salford, which will be phenomenally tough, and then hope there's enough left in the tank to perform against Saints in the Grand Final and hope Saints are off their game. I do think Salford muscle up better in the pack and have players who can make good ground and stand a better chance of beating Saints than Wigan.

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10 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Or do you automatically put the league leaders into the Grand Final, which puts more meaning on finishing first? 

 

Just supposing 1st and 2nd are seperated by points difference would that be fair, but anyway in this lopsided fixture system with the Magic Weekend and loopy doopy fixtures that does not constitute every club playing every other just once home and away we have to have a system that can designate the Champions that is different from the League Leaders, our system already rewards the League Leaders in the Championship play-offs.

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2 hours ago, JohnM said:

Of course its not much fun to hear your club put to the sword as Wigan were last night. However, they lost to the best Saints manager/team combination in several generations. Not only did they outperform every other club in the league, they did it in a way that no other Saints team ever has. 

I well remember the days of Shane Cooper for example. Great player but nasty niggling cheat, too. 

Naturally I want Wigan to win at the  GF but its difficult to argue that a Saints victory is something that would be just reward for a great season for them. 

The only thing they need to remember is that from now on, the only way is down. ?

Who has had the better season as you put it "for them"

At the start of the season not many people would have bet against Saints, Wigan and Warrington finishing in the top 3, and a good few of those could very well have wagered Saints would finish top, yes they have had a great season. 

On the other hand, how many if anyone at all would have predicted Salford finishing 3rd and reaching the Elimination Final, with more than a good chance of reaching the final itself, Salford have had a season that using the word 'great' is not a superlative that is good enough to describe their season up to this point in time.

So if Saints "just reward" is winning the GF, I take it that you would consider that if Salford could do what was consided 'unthinkable' a few months ago and become Super League Champion Club 2019 that would be unjust to St Helens?

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28 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Just supposing 1st and 2nd are seperated by points difference would that be fair, but anyway in this lopsided fixture system with the Magic Weekend and loopy doopy fixtures that does not constitute every club playing every other just once home and away we have to have a system that can designate the Champions that is different from the League Leaders, our system already rewards the League Leaders in the Championship play-offs.

But we’ve got a lopsided fixture list with loop fixtures, so it is what it is. 

I think more should be put on finishing first and there should be a bigger reward than a week off, which is the grand sum of the reward given now to teams. 

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15 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

Having said that, Tony Clubb could do to lose a few kilos, the weight's affecting his speed and mobility.

I have read this morning he made 2 carries for 11 metres last night. Thompson made 180 metres in just 50mins; more than most of the Wigan forwards combined.

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1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

But we’ve got a lopsided fixture list with loop fixtures, so it is what it is. 

I think more should be put on finishing first and there should be a bigger reward than a week off, which is the grand sum of the reward given now to teams. 

Exactly it is what it is, and we have a Championship play off simply to designate the Champion Club because the fixture list could be unfair to some teams because they are drawn with more difficult fixtures or put another way some teams could benefit over others with having somewhat easier fixtures, both the Magic and Loopy fixtures are designated before the season begins, who knows what the form of teams are going to be by the time the fixtures come around e.g. Leeds may have been considered before this season to be one of the harder teams to beat but that didn't transpire and for most of the season were one of the easy beats that would have been to the benefit of those clubs drawn against them.

Giving the League Leaders anything other than the advantage of only having to play one home fixture to reach the final would be absolutely ludicrous.

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2 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Having more than a week off surely would be a disadvantage?

I did think at one point last night that if there were to be a scuffle and a selection of players from both sides were given 1 match bans then it would work in favour of the losing side if they were to win next week and get to the final with those players back having already served their suspension. 

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1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

I have read this morning he made 2 carries for 11 metres last night. Thompson made 180 metres in just 50mins; more than most of the Wigan forwards combined.

I doubt many Wigan forwards made much metres... they were playing in their 10m line. 

Wigan were far too slow moving up in defence and Saints were immediately moving forward in their own defence.

Everything is the same for both, all, sides and Saint's are good at moving borderline off sid and lying on in the tackle.  This BTW if absolutely not a moan... the fact is they are good at it, its not an accident and other clubs just have to do better.

 

Off topic and in other news ... Japan has just beaten Ireland.   This is a significant nail in the coffin of international rugby league.  I do not want to dwell on that other code, but what we really need to do is stop obsessing on hubcaps and play off systems and £10k's over the Cap or not.  We need to support and defend our game, especially in England, otherwise its going to wither away.

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Some thoughts from me: 

- like the last game, it would have been better  if it hadn’t been televised... 

- Holbrook has been very good for the game over here and I hope he goes well in the NRL. A proper leaguie

- if we beat Salford, and it would not be bad for the game if we lose, then maybe just maybe the bigger pitch might help us run around, as we aren’t running through

- this time next year, Partyrime, Smithies and Byrne will be a year on, we will have Hastings’ kicking game and organisation, Burgess, Bullock and Clark will be available so we will be much better placed to go toe to toe, so much to like for 2020

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2 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

I thought Saints were outstanding and played some of their best rugby last night. I don't think there's any doubt that when Saints' pack is anywhere near their best they can't be matched. If they aren't at their best then of course they are beatable, Wire showed that, so there's still hope for Salford and Wigan in the Grand Final.

A result like this is something I worried about. The risk has been there for weeks but thankfully the team has probably competed beyond its means a little. Our pack is a weakness but one we've been able to overcome thanks to our outside backs. Most teams seem to have struggled to contain our backs and that's allowed our front row to revert to their Wane style of making fewer carries and having increased fitness for higher intensity defence. Saints last night were too big, too fit and too intense for us. Only Gildart looked a threat from our backline, while Williams had a decent game behind a comprehensively beaten pack. Without our backs making metres we grind to a halt.

This isn't necessarily a criticism of Wigan's pack. There are mitigating factors. O'Loughlin and Flower are still only a few games back after long layoffs and don't look anywhere near match fit. Partington is still a rookie and while he defends with intensity usually struggles to make metres. Byrne is a good prospect and has had some good performances but not first team quality just yet, but the very poor form of Navarette has necessitated his inclusion. Greenwood has also struggled for form which is why he was left out.

Farrell, Isa and Smithies do well in the back row but as a smaller forwards they are surrounded by other smaller forwards which compounds one of Wigan's biggest issues - the pack still lacks size and gets severely tested by big, mobile packs, of which Saints have by far the best. 

I'm glad Wigan have reached this stage of the playoffs but I'm not too disheartened by getting a hammering. The Saints pack is incredible and should be dominating if both teams play at their best. It's not reasonable to expect Wigan's younger forwards to compete with the likes of Thompson and Walmsley who are at the peak of their abilities, or some of the experience they have around them like Taia, Peyroux and LMS.

Lam highlighted the pack was weak at the start of the year, since then we've lost Hamlin and Tautai through indiscretions, lost Bullock to injury and only just had Flower and O'Loughlin return. The club is clearly trying to fix that for next year but for this year we're doing well to get something out of what we have.

The goal is clear now though. Try to beat Salford, which will be phenomenally tough, and then hope there's enough left in the tank to perform against Saints in the Grand Final and hope Saints are off their game. I do think Salford muscle up better in the pack and have players who can make good ground and stand a better chance of beating Saints than Wigan.

I agree with all of this. If we play to our best or close to our best in two weeks then we will win. If we are off our game then that presents an opportunity that Wigan or Salford are good enough to capitalise on.

Whilst there were few positives for Wigan last night, one was their first try, I had an excellent view of it from my seat. There wasn't really much on and Percival made the smallest of defensive misreads. Seconds later, Marshall was under the posts.

It was an error by Percival that we would have got away with against most teams, and it was that minute it is hard to criticise him for it. But Wigan laid on some incisive passing and despite Coote doing all he could, could not stop the try.

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7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

A serious flaw with this playoff system is at what point last night do Wigan start to think about next week and ease off a bit with that in mind.

They eased off?  After the first half it's hard to see how they could have eased off any further.  It's arguable that Saints did.

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1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Some thoughts from me: 

- like the last game, it would have been better  if it hadn’t been televised... 

- Holbrook has been very good for the game over here and I hope he goes well in the NRL. A proper leaguie

- if we beat Salford, and it would not be bad for the game if we lose, then maybe just maybe the bigger pitch might help us run around, as we aren’t running through

- this time next year, Partyrime, Smithies and Byrne will be a year on, we will have Hastings’ kicking game and organisation, Burgess, Bullock and Clark will be available so we will be much better placed to go toe to toe, so much to like for 2020

Some fair comment from yourself and others recently around your post.

I thought Powell had his worst game of the season and that wrist bandage looked suspicious to me... and things started from there.  As for everything else, good luck to Saints and their performance, but Wigans was miles away from anything.  Not remotely focussed at all... size helps but not to tbat extent; Wigans intent was thinking about something else. Maybe Powell, maybe the weather, maybe that and something else.  It strikes me the same thing happened in Barcelona.  

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13 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

They eased off?  After the first half it's hard to see how they could have eased off any further.  It's arguable that Saints did.

Thats what I'm saying is the flaw. Half an hour into that game they're beaten and the mindset must start to subconsciously shift towards "we've still got next week and we have more chance of winning that".

 

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20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Thats what I'm saying is the flaw. Half an hour into that game they're beaten and the mindset must start to subconsciously shift towards "we've still got next week and we have more chance of winning that".

It's a thought, but they did not really proportionaly give away any points. In all honesty I do not see that being a problem.  The game has more to worry about than that. 

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8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I take it that you would consider that if Salford could do what was consided 'unthinkable' a few months ago and become Super League Champion Club 2019 that would be unjust to St Helens?

No. Salford would have won the GF fair and square and Saints could only blame themselves. However, if Saints win, they can look back on the season as their greatest of modern times. Just reward indeed, damn it! ?

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4 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Some fair comment from yourself and others recently around your post.

I thought Powell had his worst game of the season and that wrist bandage looked suspicious to me... and things started from there.  As for everything else, good luck to Saints and their performance, but Wigans was miles away from anything.  Not remotely focussed at all... size helps but not to tbat extent; Wigans intent was thinking about something else. Maybe Powell, maybe the weather, maybe that and something else.  It strikes me the same thing happened in Barcelona.  

Maybe if you go 14 points down in no time with a safety net you drop your intensity. I put a lot of it down to relying on such young forwards for too long, and going to the well once too often. 

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Saints in the comfort zone of their own ground looked like what they are, the best team in the competition by an absolute mile and the best team in it for several years.

Remains to be seen whether they can reproduce it when the pressure is really on in the Manchester drizzle in a couple of weeks.

"I'm from a fishing family. Trawlermen are like pirates with biscuits." - Lucy Beaumont.

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4 minutes ago, Ullman said:

Saints in the comfort zone of their own ground looked like what they are, the best team in the competition by an absolute mile and the best team in it for several years.

Remains to be seen whether they can reproduce it when the pressure is really on in the Manchester drizzle in a couple of weeks.

I hinted that to a former TRL forum member and avid Saints fan about an hour ago.

I likened the GF to Wembley where they came second, she replied "At least we're still playing!".

Ooof!, that hurt.

With Halloween coming up I decided to go to my local fancy dress shop to see if I could get a Dracula costume. After a few minutes the assistant handed me a Hull KR shirt asking "Is this suitable?", I replied "I think you may have misheard me, I said I wanted to look like a count."
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And over on facebook...

Image may contain: 5 people, people smiling, text

With Halloween coming up I decided to go to my local fancy dress shop to see if I could get a Dracula costume. After a few minutes the assistant handed me a Hull KR shirt asking "Is this suitable?", I replied "I think you may have misheard me, I said I wanted to look like a count."
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1 minute ago, Old Frightful said:

I hinted that to a former TRL forum member and avid Saints fan about an hour ago.

I likened the GF to Wembley where they came second, she replied "At least we're still playing!".

Ooof!, that hurt.

Meh! If we were a horse we'd still be running.

"I'm from a fishing family. Trawlermen are like pirates with biscuits." - Lucy Beaumont.

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