Padge Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 I spent a lot of time looking into this when it was brought up some time back, I trawled through loads of articles from around that period and could find nothing to back it up. A research assistant at Wigan museum/library asked me what I was researching, when I explained it she had a wry smile and said something along the lines of "racism was that rife at the time it wouldn't warrant a mention anywhere, it was just not unusual at all". Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Wolford6 said: Following the decline of the rampant Featherstone team of the 1970's , there's been a marked decrease in the proportion of bald players. I blame Thatcher. Yes, I missed out bald players and, for that matter, the one I shouldn't have forgotten, players with beards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 11 minutes ago, Padge said: I spent a lot of time looking into this when it was brought up some time back, I trawled through loads of articles from around that period and could find nothing to back it up. A research assistant at Wigan museum/library asked me what I was researching, when I explained it she had a wry smile and said something along the lines of "racism was that rife at the time it wouldn't warrant a mention anywhere, it was just not unusual at all". I think she is being very harsh. I don't think it was rife in this country in those days, unlike in, for example, the United States. That doesn't mean it wasn't present at all, but working people were remarkably free of it, as Paul Robeson discovered, particularly in Wales, in the 1930s. Alex Givvons was discovering something very similar in Oldham in the 1930s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said: I think she is being very harsh. I don't think it was rife in this country in those days, unlike in, for example, the United States. That doesn't mean it wasn't present at all, but working people were remarkably free of it, as Paul Robeson discovered, particularly in Wales, in the 1930s. Alex Givvons was discovering something very similar in Oldham in the 1930s. I think it was more the point she was making was that it was so common as to be not newsworthy if someone had been sacked because of their race. Equally if a new boss came in at any workplace you could be sacked with little comeback for having a beard. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 33 minutes ago, Padge said: I think it was more the point she was making was that it was so common as to be not newsworthy if someone had been sacked because of their race. Equally if a new boss came in at any workplace you could be sacked with little comeback for having a beard. I think if Roy Francis had been sacked at Wigan purely on racial grounds, the Wigan supporters would have known it and they would have been up in arms about it. In that context it certainly would have been newsworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: I think if Roy Francis had been sacked at Wigan purely on racial grounds, the Wigan supporters would have known it and they would have been up in arms about it. In that context it certainly would have been newsworthy. It may have been newsworthy, I was stating what I was told by a professional researcher. Being newsworthy doesn't mean it was reported though. You have to take into account what newspapers at the time would decide was worth reporting and if Wigan Rugby were a big advertiser in the local press it may be better to brush it under the carpet. By the way Martyn I am not saying Sunderland was a racist and we should rename the trophy, I am saying what my experience was in trying to find out if there was anything to back up the assertion that he was. I found nothing, I was just explaining possibilities why as put to me. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Padge said: It may have been newsworthy, I was stating what I was told by a professional researcher. Being newsworthy doesn't mean it was reported though. You have to take into account what newspapers at the time would decide was worth reporting and if Wigan Rugby were a big advertiser in the local press it may be better to brush it under the carpet. By the way Martyn I am not saying Sunderland was a racist and we should rename the trophy, I am saying what my experience was in trying to find out if there was anything to back up the assertion that he was. I found nothing, I was just explaining possibilities why as put to me. I recognise what you are saying, but what I would really like to know is why Moorhouse raised it in his book. Where did it come from, given that it almost seemed to be a throwaway line? It's very easy to damn people who are now dead and make all sorts of claims about them that they obviously can't rebut. And since he wrote that book, plenty of people have read that about Sunderland and assumed it must be true. Sadly, Moorhouse himself died some time ago, so we can't ask him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: I recognise what you are saying, but what I would really like to know is why Moorhouse raised it in his book. Where did it come from, given that it almost seemed to be a throwaway line? It's very easy to damn people who are now dead and make all sorts of claims about them that they obviously can't rebut. And since he wrote that book, plenty of people have read that about Sunderland and assumed it must be true. Sadly, Moorhouse himself died some time ago, so we can't ask him. It is odd that it was mentioned in the book but nobody can find where he got it from. I really find the whole thing puzzling. The one place I haven't checked is the Australian press and there is a good open Austrlian news archive site that may be worth looking at. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 4 hours ago, Just Browny said: Probably two separate questions here. Q1. Do we have enough BAME players in the top tiers of the UK game? A. Yes, probably thanks to the Polynesian/Melanesian players you mention. Q2. Are enough of our UK-developed players from BAME backgrounds? A. Lots of work still to do, especially in Asian communities given the make-up of many of the towns and cities in West Yorkshire and around Manchester. And by the way, this isn't about 'political correctness' or identity politics. It is about saying that if, as some people do, we should be concentrating on heartlands towns like Batley or Bradford (no disrespect to either), we need to be reaching out to the full population in those towns or our base will grow ever smaller. It's all to do with political correctness, where does it all stop.Change the nameof the trophy and you may as well throw it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Futtocks said: Richard Wagner was a pretty nasty character even if you take his antisemitism out of the equation (which you can't, before anyone points out the bleeding obvious). His attitude towards almost everyone he encountered in his life was aggressively obnoxious. And yes, he was a musical genius - just one who needed a few sharp punches in the groin. There’s never been a performance of a Wagner opera in Israel. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Funkhouser Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 24 minutes ago, gingerjon said: There’s never been a performance of a Wagner opera in Israel. Yet his music is still appreciated by many in the Jewish community. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjBmO_34PbkAhVVQkEAHcYuBLoQFjAMegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Farts-entertainment%2Fclassical%2Fnews%2Ffry-my-love-of-wagner-is-tearing-me-apart-1928023.html&usg=AOvVaw3DIAyKB_Q9GoyL2HzRxd1N https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjN0fvx4PbkAhXKbsAKHZkoDa8QwqsBMAJ6BAgIEA4&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxP8E85_Zh-w&usg=AOvVaw2INdBZqh45-KNQzE3y_bwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poower Lad Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 What if a white person wins the Muhammad Ali Humanitarian award , would they be ok to have a problem as he wasn’t the biggest fan of white people . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolford6 Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Jamie Jones Buchanan is BAME, bald and has a beard. If he'll just declare himself to be non-gender-specific, his name should be on the trophy. Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 6 hours ago, Eddie said: The point is though that Sunderland is unlikely to have behaved like that if he was around today, because we (well most of us anyway) view things differently now. If this is some sort of defence, that’s utterly bizarre and totally the wrong way to look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELBOWSEYE Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Typical of todays society they spend their time trying to change history and less time on today, history is filled with people who if we spend time researching you could wipe out every famous person's name that has been attached to trophys, buildings,parks, universities and so on. The world's going mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 34 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said: Yet his music is still appreciated by many in the Jewish community. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjBmO_34PbkAhVVQkEAHcYuBLoQFjAMegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Farts-entertainment%2Fclassical%2Fnews%2Ffry-my-love-of-wagner-is-tearing-me-apart-1928023.html&usg=AOvVaw3DIAyKB_Q9GoyL2HzRxd1N https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjN0fvx4PbkAhXKbsAKHZkoDa8QwqsBMAJ6BAgIEA4&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxP8E85_Zh-w&usg=AOvVaw2INdBZqh45-KNQzE3y_bwr Yes. It’s complicated. But still no performance of an opera in Israel. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 30 minutes ago, Poower Lad said: What if a white person wins the Muhammad Ali Humanitarian award , would they be ok to have a problem as he wasn’t the biggest fan of white people . Ali was fine with white people. He wasn’t fine with “white America”. The problem is that some woeful snowflakes refuse to understand the difference. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 7 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Yes. It’s complicated. But still no performance of an opera in Israel. And no performances of Gary Glitter anywhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigbyLuger Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 12 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: And no performances of Gary Glitter anywhere! American sports events. They aren't aware or don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wollongong Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Australia had a white only policy and refused to accept aboriginals as (first) people and then (second) as citizens... until very recent history do we refuse to accept Australia in the game (they still use the same name as the days of rampant and bigoted racism) because of their past policies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksy Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 5 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said: Yet his music is still appreciated by many in the Jewish community. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjBmO_34PbkAhVVQkEAHcYuBLoQFjAMegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Farts-entertainment%2Fclassical%2Fnews%2Ffry-my-love-of-wagner-is-tearing-me-apart-1928023.html&usg=AOvVaw3DIAyKB_Q9GoyL2HzRxd1N https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjN0fvx4PbkAhXKbsAKHZkoDa8QwqsBMAJ6BAgIEA4&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxP8E85_Zh-w&usg=AOvVaw2INdBZqh45-KNQzE3y_bwr Larry Rugby Union the only game in the world were the spectators handle the ball more than the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 One for the AOB political "discussion" sub forum. Oops... New poster, of course. Is that a way round the rules now? GK of course has it right. Nowhere near enough BAME players, spectators. Etc. Quotas, that's what we need. Lock this or move this before the milkshakes are thrown , FFS!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenilworth Tiger Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 16 hours ago, yipyee said: This was discussed and allowed to stand. Like the remoaners some people won't leave things lie and admit defeat. This will come up every year until current culture changes Yeah it's just like that Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in. I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenilworth Tiger Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 11 hours ago, Wolford6 said: Jamie Jones Buchanan is BAME, bald and has a beard. If he'll just declare himself to be non-gender-specific, his name should be on the trophy. It's name not his name Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in. I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poower Lad Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 11 hours ago, gingerjon said: Ali was fine with white people. He wasn’t fine with “white America”. The problem is that some woeful snowflakes refuse to understand the difference. Watch this and then discuss , Also I am not a snowflake I am a 42 year old Ex miner and Soldier . https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/muhammad-ali-nation-of-islam-michael-parkinson-interview-who-were-elijah-muhammad-a7066301.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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