Toronto hate

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

See , this is where I take insult from posts like this , these 100 he old clubs have played in and won the ' top tier ' , they have played in front of big crowds , they are still around after 100 years 

Now Toronto are attracting great attendances , but we have seen similar before and another few years down the line these clubs have disappeared , so let's see how we go , I genuinely hope it works and they continue to prosper , huge respect for David Argyle as I have for anybody willing to invest in our sport be that in Toronto ,Coventry or Keighley 

But insulting fans if clubs who invented the game won't endear you to anybody 

You've seen similar before?  When and where was there an expansion club in English RL which grew its crowds during its first three years as Toronto has done?

[Plan of Attack]

14 hours ago, Damien said:

But I thought the consensus of lower league clubs and their fans was that Toronto should start at the bottom and earn their stripes?

Nobody  realised they would be allowed a £1+m salary cap  when they joined champ 1 whereas the other teams in champ 1 had assembled teams on budgets of around £200,000 or thereabout therefore it was a no brainer how they would get on

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Plan of Attack said:

Nobody  realised they would be allowed a £1+m salary cap  when they joined champ 1 whereas the other teams in champ 1 had assembled teams on budgets of around £200,000 or thereabout therefore it was a no brainer how they would get on

It was a no brainer how they would get on but it's what the majority seemed to want, for them to prove their worth on the field and to earn promotion through the league's. It's not really their fault that they are more professional and have more more than the rest of League 1.

If they were plonked straight into Super League or the Championship then there would be even more complaints.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its the European Super League. The plan was always at least 2 French sides never mind from anywhere else.

The plan was never really followed though.  Instead of a Super League the administrators just tarted up the old RFL Championship instead.  Toronto shows what RL could achieve if it had a genuinely super league after all.

[Kayakman]

14 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Yeah, I’ve been to Ottawa (and Toronto) several times. Ottawa is dull. 

Half my family is Canadian (might explain why I’m not so awestruck about the whole Canadian thing as some of my fellow posters)!

They from Newfoundland?

[Jao 711]

15 hours ago, Eddie said:

More at Toronto today than at Wigan last night. Would the Pies make the cut in a closed shop franchise Super League?

Didn’t take long for Wigan hate to to to overpower Toronto hate did it.Well done Wolfpack.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Bod said:

Putting Toronto into Super League isn't going to grow the game, a league in Canada would do that.

It will grow the game in both countries...she is a proven winner...put the whip to that Philly!

[Jao 711]

15 hours ago, fcl said:

The Catalan dragons are the result of the merger of two historic French clubs. They continue to train many players

We can not compare the creation of Toronto and the emergence of football clubs. It's a bad comparison. Some sports have developed because of the development of a diaspora that has exported a culture. this is not the case with Toronto trying to apply a model of economic development

 

15 hours ago, fcl said:

The Catalan dragons are the result of the merger of two historic French clubs. They continue to train many players

We can not compare the creation of Toronto and the emergence of football clubs. It's a bad comparison. Some sports have developed because of the development of a diaspora that has exported a culture. this is not the case with Toronto trying to apply a model of economic development

In 1895 Rugby League had no history.History takes time so let’s give them a chance to build a history.Catalan made a bit of history last year.Could it be you are bemoaning the fact that Toulouse didn’t make it? Well so am I ,it would be a step forward to have two French “derby”games  but as we saw last week they are not quite ready yet.

[Wigan Riversider]

RL has had since 1895 to get it right in the heartlands. In my humble opinion it hasn't happened.

Good luck to Toronto

[Graham]

18 hours ago, Scubby said:

I hate the way Toronto fans have ignored the memo to stay at home for play off games. They need to get their act together

Well done to the Featherstone fans who made the journey over there for this game and enjoyed their time there if not the result.

[TheReaper]

13 hours ago, The Parksider said:

That's a great post calling out TWP for their bluff and bluster. I recall when Featherstone were set for Superleague under an investor called Faisal Nahaboo, the man took fright and resigned, and Featherstone collapsed accordingly. They were saved by linking with Leeds on the dual registration system basically acting as a player nursery for Leeds. Yesterdays TWP victory was a £2Million professional team beating a part time Leeds Nursery team, and not by a lot at that.   What an achievement

They beat a team following the same rules as them. Featherstone was free to spend as much as Toronto.

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McDermott has obviously been given his script by his paymaster to continue to spout the propoganda that if there's one club we can't do without it's TWP, because they are the first of many big cities that are going to get on board with RL. As I have always said and as all the dreamers on here won't answer is what happens if you repeat the TWP model again and again? Replace HKR with Barcelona? Huddersfield with Ottawa? Salford with New York, Wakefield with Belgrade, Castleford with Copenhagen? I've neen asking this for three years and nobody from the "expansion" brigade ever answers it. They mock and insult but they don't answer the key question.

I have answered this and you know it. Nobody is "replacing" teams... if Salford gets relegated, it's because they finished last as per the rules of the competition. If an existing club was shut down when a new club was added to to league system, THAT would be "replacement". Teams are being ADDED to the system, and moving up and down between the leagues based on results.

(Yes, Hemel has "moved" to Ottawa, but they were bought and paid, and did not have to sell to anyone if they didn't want to.)

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Anyone can spout the stuff McDermott has been told to spout, but nobody can back it. If anyone really thinks that closing SL clubs down and shipping their players

See above - nobody has "closed down"  any SL clubs. They would continue on in the Championship as they would in any case having been relegated, regardless of who got promoted.

Who is "shipping off" players? They way I see it, the players are out of contract and free agents who can sign with whoever they want to. The fact that some player have decided that playing for Toronto or other is the best opportunity for them to pursue is not a negative of Toronto. If other clubs want these players, they are free to make competitive offers. Especially now when there is an equal salary cap for all involved.

Now, the point raised has been, if the game is to be supportive of all ventures, then recognizing that some places have higher costs of living is a valid discussion to have. It could be decided that no allowances would be made, and there are valid reasons for that as well. 

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off to big cities thousands of miles away is going to make all the people who run and support player development in towns along the M62 happy, they are deluded. Their interest in the game lies in. and lies with their local clubs not being servants to Vancouver.

As mentioned, nobody is being forced to sign for Vancouver/Toronto/NY if they don't want to. Tons of TWP players have said how excited they were to be part of the project. So there is clearly a large segment of players who are open to it. If they want to stay home and play for a club in England, they only have to agree to any offers they get from those clubs 

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Back the the OP - Does anyone "HATE" TWP?............It's a daft question, the real question is does anyone believe progressively replacing M62 clubs with NA clubs will work. Again nobody want to answer this 

See above. And previous times I've called you out for this one. Are you going to stop claiming "replacement"? 

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but the clear plan as articulated by Perez is New York, Ottawa, Montreal and Vancouver in Superleague in place of four existing SL clubs by 2016.

I don't believe he ever said replace. He said add, based on (IMO) an assumption that a sport flexible enough to add teams on a nother continent would also be flexible enough to look at how many teams are in the competition. Nobody can claim that RL isn't open to format changes.

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That's to get the NA content to get the massive NATV deal promised. 

I don't think you could call it a "promise". Something to work towards as goal, and a goal worth some effort and risk to get to. Also, if I recall correctly, the actual statement was that "we would need 5 or 6 teams" to get a bid TV deal. Not that he would be providing those, but that that would be the path to get there.

My assumption is that would have been discussed with the RFL when joining the system, but as far as I'm aware it was never definitively said whether TWP would be held responsible for finding / setting up these clubs, if it was up to the RFL to do the same, if it was agreed on as the strategy going forward. I suspect it was neither, and it was something that would be allowed to happen if it came along (seems to be the case with Ottawa and NY). If no one was agreed to be held responsible, then it was neither parties "fault" for it failing to materialize - and it hasn't failed, because we are still slowly adding those additional clubs. If it was a requirement, it would have been agreed to then, and someone would be responsible. I have seen no evidence that this is the case.

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This is ridiculous but about 30 people on here who seem to think they are a majority voice (despite there being about 150,000 RL fans) are convinced it's a "cunning plan" OR they were so enthused and lapped it up at the start that they don't have the guts to admit they were wrong. Easier on this type of media to chuck insults and mock people rather than answer the concerns.

Nobody is wrong yet, except for the people predicting that TWP would close up shop at any point they have now passed yet. The story isn't over. Everything still has the "so far" qualifier applied.

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I am absolutely fine with TWP going up and it's a shame they didn't go up last year. If they had then most fans in the game would know by now that they are what they are, an average M62 team owned by an Australian, based in Manchester who rent a ground in Ottawa to pretend to be the start of a Rugby League revolution in North America. Not that they are. The first "Start" was when Perez re-started Canada RL that's failed 10 years on, the second start was the Denver test to enthuse NA fans for the NA RL World Cup.

I haven't heard TWP claim to be anything besides the first Transatlantic Rugby LEague team. What fans represent them as is almost meaningless in this context. But to everyone who matters (the home fans), TWP players have agreed to give their talents and bodies to bring entertainment and championships to Toronto, where they play their games. That makes them a Toronto team. Period.

Claiming Canada RL has "failed" is a statement I'd like to see you back up. Things seem to be holding steady around 5/6 clubs in BC, Ontario has 2 when they had 4 but arguably the 4 teams was over-reaching the true numbers. If you ask @Themusician_2 he'd probably happy about that due to reduced crossover with RU (not that he's the only one, just one example of that school of thought, so it's not an unequivocal negative). The men's and women's natonal teams just finished a tour to Eastern Europe where they played Serbia and Bosnia. At least two junior clubs are up and running, both well outside the city of Toronto so there is some spread as well. My point is that things are happening.

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They pulled it, nobody was interested.

At some point fans of the American dream need to stop just pulling their tongues out, and RL journalists need to give us some more serious analysis rather than repeat the TWP party line Macca has been made to repeat.  As for fellow SL clubs what went wrong there? How did they ever manage to get stuck with a club they don't want and their chairman they don't like.

I suspect they aren't as against it as you are making out. I have no proof though, so I won't be making any definitive statements. The fact that they have been allowed up point towards the potential positives outweighing potential negatives in their eyes .

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And this is an important point, as per the negotiations for TWP to enter apparently SL chairmen were dead set against it, and things got heated with Argyle having a go back at them. That was a rumour at the time but Macca actually confirms it. Superleague is not a happy camp with this massive multi $$Million loss making phoney club, who will never produce a single NA player or big TV deal, and will never be followed by another NA club as SL chairmen won't make the same mistake twice.

So where are we with it? Well it's not the end game, job done as TWP fans want to gloat. It is certainly The end of the honeymoon and with the SKY TV deal ending in a couple of years that will be the end of TWP,

Quoted for evaluation of that statement in a few years. You're on the record now.

(Red emphasis added - you've left few other ways to highlight anything  ) 

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which could have been earlier than now if SL had been allowed to drop to 10 clubs as they wanted to do or this year so desperate were they not to have TWP.

For me TWP really need to be exposed and not just kicked out. Had they been refused SL we would have suffered an avalanche of posts as to how  the game had losttheir only chance of survival and signed their own death warrant. We need them to go into SL and show us how it's rally done and deliver on all what I know, is phoney baloney.

 

13 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Morning, quite right it is fear, not of the Toronto club it is fear of what will have to give over here, the more Canadian/NA  club's that come into existence can you not see they will be completely dependent on our resources over here and of course a few antipodeans.

Players are one resource. Money is another resource. I don't see a big deal in an entity using a resource it has to gain a resource it needs. Most of the world operates the same way.

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We have a very limited pool of RL player's in the UK, the trend in producing player's is going down not up, the equation is quite simple the more it is divided up something has to give, these 'new' clubs will want the best player's and that could well impact on our clubs over here, if you are quite happy with that scenario then that is your prerogative, I ain't, and when the push comes to shove and SL realises it will be they that are effected they will nip the NA 'expansion' process in the bud, I can't see any other teams from that part of the world being allowed to join Toronto in our premier Division for a long time.

So are you saying that you are in favour of limiting the jobs available to the existing player? You want a British monopoly on hiring British players?

I'd suggest there's a bit of supply and demand at play here. If there is an increasing demand on players, especially at the top end of the salary range, at the very least the full time part of that range, then more players will see rugby as a viable career, more will stay in the game, more player pool. The salary cap actually limits this. Not saying that shouldn't be a SC, but currently it isn't doing enough to increase demand. Arguably a larger aspect of this is clubs not spending the full amount-  something that Toronto will do, so that is a net positive.

If there were NO players it would be a different question. But, there are players available from Australia. English clubs bring them in themselves. So if English clubs wanted it enforced that more English players fill the leagues rosters, they could do that themselves. So I don't see why it's this huge problem with Toronto, or Ottawa. How many clubs it would take to have a noticeable have an effect, is a question that we won't find the answer to without adding them until, it IS a problem. But if all these clubs pay full SC, then I see the net effect of Supply and Demand, combined with the increasing profile that would come with an international league, then it should sort itself out.

 

Note that, in none of this, have I said TWP SHOULDN'T try to develop their own talent. Of course there are many reasons to do, not only altruism to the wider game, but also having cheaper players, and marketing opportunities both from advertising  homegrown players to the fan base, and from the amateur players spreading awareness to family and friends by word of mouth. However, I feel that as a private business, whose core purpose is not youth development, it should be up to them to realize those benefits and allocate resources as they see fit.

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I saw last evening you commented on McDermott talking a load of sense, I would have loved to be the interviewer and ask him how these new teams he mentions would be furnished with player's and did he envisage any consequential fall out for the game in the UK from such action.

On s side note Damien, did I assume  correctly that you are a Wigan fan, if so do you come from and live in the town?

That being the case did you ever go or still attend St Pats, Rosebridge, At Jude's Orrell St James, Ince St William's, Hindley, Haydock etc I have been involved with the Amatuer RL for a very long time, the scene today is not recognisable from only 20 to 30 years ago, we need to get our own house in order, I have posted a suggestion on another thread the one titled "I hope it's not wasted", have a look see if you agree.

 

[Harry Stottle]

Thanks Reaper for a most concise reply, it now getting quite late over here and having an indifferent type of day, initially went to meet strangers who my Wife and I will be travelling to New Zealand with as part of a touring group following  GB Lions, indifferent in respect of it was great in meeting a wonderful set of people, but my wife had her bag/purse stolen by some scroat - evidence on the pub's ctv -  credit, debit and club cards, keys, cell phone, and valuable intrinsic items also included, been on the phone reporting it all night.

I took a minute out to clear my head and have a read of these pages, I will respond to you as soon as I can get around to it.

 

[Themusician_2]

1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

They beat a team following the same rules as them. Featherstone was free to spend as much as Toronto.

I have answered this and you know it. Nobody is "replacing" teams... if Salford gets relegated, it's because they finished last as per the rules of the competition. If an existing club was shut down when a new club was added to to league system, THAT would be "replacement". Teams are being ADDED to the system, and moving up and down between the leagues based on results.

(Yes, Hemel has "moved" to Ottawa, but they were bought and paid, and did not have to sell to anyone if they didn't want to.)

See above - nobody has "closed down"  any SL clubs. They would continue on in the Championship as they would in any case having been relegated, regardless of who got promoted.

Who is "shipping off" players? They way I see it, the players are out of contract and free agents who can sign with whoever they want to. The fact that some player have decided that playing for Toronto or other is the best opportunity for them to pursue is not a negative of Toronto. If other clubs want these players, they are free to make competitive offers. Especially now when there is an equal salary cap for all involved.

Now, the point raised has been, if the game is to be supportive of all ventures, then recognizing that some places have higher costs of living is a valid discussion to have. It could be decided that no allowances would be made, and there are valid reasons for that as well. 

As mentioned, nobody is being forced to sign for Vancouver/Toronto/NY if they don't want to. Tons of TWP players have said how excited they were to be part of the project. So there is clearly a large segment of players who are open to it. If they want to stay home and play for a club in England, they only have to agree to any offers they get from those clubs 

See above. And previous times I've called you out for this one. Are you going to stop claiming "replacement"? 

I don't believe he ever said replace. He said add, based on (IMO) an assumption that a sport flexible enough to add teams on a nother continent would also be flexible enough to look at how many teams are in the competition. Nobody can claim that RL isn't open to format changes.

I don't think you could call it a "promise". Something to work towards as goal, and a goal worth some effort and risk to get to. Also, if I recall correctly, the actual statement was that "we would need 5 or 6 teams" to get a bid TV deal. Not that he would be providing those, but that that would be the path to get there.

My assumption is that would have been discussed with the RFL when joining the system, but as far as I'm aware it was never definitively said whether TWP would be held responsible for finding / setting up these clubs, if it was up to the RFL to do the same, if it was agreed on as the strategy going forward. I suspect it was neither, and it was something that would be allowed to happen if it came along (seems to be the case with Ottawa and NY). If no one was agreed to be held responsible, then it was neither parties "fault" for it failing to materialize - and it hasn't failed, because we are still slowly adding those additional clubs. If it was a requirement, it would have been agreed to then, and someone would be responsible. I have seen no evidence that this is the case.

Nobody is wrong yet, except for the people predicting that TWP would close up shop at any point they have now passed yet. The story isn't over. Everything still has the "so far" qualifier applied.

I haven't heard TWP claim to be anything besides the first Transatlantic Rugby LEague team. What fans represent them as is almost meaningless in this context. But to everyone who matters (the home fans), TWP players have agreed to give their talents and bodies to bring entertainment and championships to Toronto, where they play their games. That makes them a Toronto team. Period.

Claiming Canada RL has "failed" is a statement I'd like to see you back up. Things seem to be holding steady around 5/6 clubs in BC, Ontario has 2 when they had 4 but arguably the 4 teams was over-reaching the true numbers. If you ask @Themusician_2 he'd probably happy about that due to reduced crossover with RU (not that he's the only one, just one example of that school of thought, so it's not an unequivocal negative). The men's and women's natonal teams just finished a tour to Eastern Europe where they played Serbia and Bosnia. At least two junior clubs are up and running, both well outside the city of Toronto so there is some spread as well. My point is that things are happening.

I suspect they aren't as against it as you are making out. I have no proof though, so I won't be making any definitive statements. The fact that they have been allowed up point towards the potential positives outweighing potential negatives in their eyes .

Quoted for evaluation of that statement in a few years. You're on the record now.

(Red emphasis added - you've left few other ways to highlight anything  ) 

 

Players are one resource. Money is another resource. I don't see a big deal in an entity using a resource it has to gain a resource it needs. Most of the world operates the same way.

So are you saying that you are in favour of limiting the jobs available to the existing player? You want a British monopoly on hiring British players?

I'd suggest there's a bit of supply and demand at play here. If there is an increasing demand on players, especially at the top end of the salary range, at the very least the full time part of that range, then more players will see rugby as a viable career, more will stay in the game, more player pool. The salary cap actually limits this. Not saying that shouldn't be a SC, but currently it isn't doing enough to increase demand. Arguably a larger aspect of this is clubs not spending the full amount-  something that Toronto will do, so that is a net positive.

If there were NO players it would be a different question. But, there are players available from Australia. English clubs bring them in themselves. So if English clubs wanted it enforced that more English players fill the leagues rosters, they could do that themselves. So I don't see why it's this huge problem with Toronto, or Ottawa. How many clubs it would take to have a noticeable have an effect, is a question that we won't find the answer to without adding them until, it IS a problem. But if all these clubs pay full SC, then I see the net effect of Supply and Demand, combined with the increasing profile that would come with an international league, then it should sort itself out.

 

Note that, in none of this, have I said TWP SHOULDN'T try to develop their own talent. Of course there are many reasons to do, not only altruism to the wider game, but also having cheaper players, and marketing opportunities both from advertising  homegrown players to the fan base, and from the amateur players spreading awareness to family and friends by word of mouth. However, I feel that as a private business, whose core purpose is not youth development, it should be up to them to realize those benefits and allocate resources as they see fit.

 

Why mention me ?

[Kayakman]

40 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks Reaper for a most concise reply, it now getting quite late over here and having an indifferent type of day, initially went to meet strangers who my Wife and I will be travelling to New Zealand with as part of a touring group following  GB Lions, indifferent in respect of it was great in meeting a wonderful set of people, but my wife had her bag/purse stolen by some scroat - evidence on the pub's ctv -  credit, debit and club cards, keys, cell phone, and valuable intrinsic items also included, been on the phone reporting it all night.

I took a minute out to clear my head and have a read of these pages, I will respond to you as soon as I can get around to it.

 

That type of stuff commonplace over there Harry?   Hope it all works out and you get them, those thieving bastards.

Your tour with the Lions sounds great...

All the best on it,

Kayakman

[TheReaper]

45 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

Why mention me ?

Hoped you'd agree with me. 

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, TheReaper said:

Hoped you'd agree with me. 

Now Musicman you had better watch it if you are planning to mess with The Reaper; just saying.

[dixiedean]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

 

Time for the game as a whole to have an open and honest public discussion about this beyond this small  talking shop we don't need Ottawa next.

If Canada RU are actively working against it, then that is the best possible news for TWP. They'll have 60 000 at,every game given their track record. They really make the RFL look competent.

If we are to have an open and honest discussion, it doesn't start with "we don't need Ottawa"....that is neither open nor honest. Nor a discussion. Just your opinion.

[TheReaper]

3 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Hoped you'd agree with me. 

 

4 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

Why mention me ?

Sorry,  just to come back to this,  perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned you so directly,  and Im sorry if that was out of line. 

I only meant to say that you are someone who I've remembered making comments about not liking how much crossover with RU there is here, and to give a more solid example than just saying "some people" would say that less crossover resulted in 2 instead of 4 teams is necessarily the worst thing. If I'm interpreting your comments wrong,  or if you disagree with my point here, that's fine, please feel free to say so. I call enough people out on other things to take it when I'm wrong.

Either way, I stand by my original argument that CRL hasn't "failed" , they are ongoing with their ups and downs as most organizations experience at times.

[Oxford]

Let's lay one myth to rest right now, there is no hate for TWP though if everyone in Toronto is aspiring to be Manly it can be painted that way.

What people like Parky hate is change and as they get older they hate it more and more.

TWP represents that change and so comes into the firing line.

The Dragons came in so he changed to TWP and they are in, so he moves on to Ottawa and afterwards NY etc etc.

If NA becomes a beautiful dream for TGG where it gets the recognition it deserves Parky will still be playing Donald Duck during the Mickey Mouse Club song.

 

[TboneFromTO]

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Mind your own business. Fans of fellow real SL clubs have been our “guests” at matches for many years, come in good numbers, are most welcome, and add a lot to the gate money, atmosphere and match experience. A TWP game will be “one to miss”.

What’s remarkable about a $Billionaire using $Millions buying in professionals from here to beat small part time clubs? In 2002 Fartown won every Championship game to go up.

They can’t. Perez said this year it isn’t easy, Argyle doesn’t even try, even TWP fans on here concede they won’t produce any players for many many years to come, and Canada RU is actively working against any RL development. They willl remain a Manchester based English team...Oh whoopeee.

Jeez how many times? To produce Canadian SL players and a Canadian TV deal. Neither happened or will happen.

Red Herring  A.K.A. Ignoratio elenchi   beside the point,  irrelevant thesis.

Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. The deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument that TWP in reality offered the game TV money and Canadian players to get accepted to the RFL. Not crowds. Especially if they don't come here......

Again Fartown won every Championship game to go up and the following season they came 10th. and lost 16 games.

This is why TWP just need to get in SL then they will either deliver and save the game here or be exposed for what they are i,e, a Huddersfield without any player development or TV deal. What they aren't is glamorous, or the future of the game here.

Time for the game as a whole to have an open and honest public discussion about this beyond this small  talking shop we don't need Ottawa next.

Funny, everyone who has gone over has said highly about the match day experience, that would make it not one to miss!

SL already has a TV deal in Canada - you can't sell rights twice - the pay off will come when the rights are up for renewal

Players will come eventually. It's ignorant to think you can build a top flight athlete in any sport in 3 years.  Obviously I do wish more was being done, but it doesnt actually bother me at this point in time

 

[Mr Frisky]

Best thing SL can do now (and not in September next season) is announce a 14 team SL in 2021 - no relegation next season then 2 up from the Championship.

Everyone gets the 14 team league that's needed and Toronto (and a few other clubs) can put a 2 year plan together which will help with player recruitment and sponsorships.

It will probably help the next UK TV negotiating.

Make it happen.

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Kayakman said:

That type of stuff commonplace over there Harry?   Hope it all works out and you get them, those thieving bastards.

Your tour with the Lions sounds great...

All the best on it,

Kayakman

Unfortunately it happens all to often K'man, thanks for your thoughts.

[Blind side johnny]

21 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

There is no new money the pack just covered the travel costs and expenses of visiting teams. This won't be done when they in super league

That is covered by the £150k+ that each SL club gets next year due to Toronto not getting any central distribution money. Assuming that those clubs don't just pass that money on to players and agents, that is.

[tuutaisrambo]

Well done Toronto........lost one game all year and deserve to go up!

Fev had a good go and hopefully can build again for next year.  Should be a great Championship in 2020

I hope the SL treat you guys with a little more respect than they do us small time tin pot northern clubs 

I always said i'd support you guys in SL but think i'll have to wait til you sack McDermott first after his comments at the end of the game 

[RP London]

11 hours ago, TheReaper said:

They beat a team following the same rules as them. Featherstone was free to spend as much as Toronto.

I have answered this and you know it. Nobody is "replacing" teams... if Salford gets relegated, it's because they finished last as per the rules of the competition. If an existing club was shut down when a new club was added to to league system, THAT would be "replacement". Teams are being ADDED to the system, and moving up and down between the leagues based on results.

(Yes, Hemel has "moved" to Ottawa, but they were bought and paid, and did not have to sell to anyone if they didn't want to.)

See above - nobody has "closed down"  any SL clubs. They would continue on in the Championship as they would in any case having been relegated, regardless of who got promoted.

Who is "shipping off" players? They way I see it, the players are out of contract and free agents who can sign with whoever they want to. The fact that some player have decided that playing for Toronto or other is the best opportunity for them to pursue is not a negative of Toronto. If other clubs want these players, they are free to make competitive offers. Especially now when there is an equal salary cap for all involved.

Now, the point raised has been, if the game is to be supportive of all ventures, then recognizing that some places have higher costs of living is a valid discussion to have. It could be decided that no allowances would be made, and there are valid reasons for that as well. 

As mentioned, nobody is being forced to sign for Vancouver/Toronto/NY if they don't want to. Tons of TWP players have said how excited they were to be part of the project. So there is clearly a large segment of players who are open to it. If they want to stay home and play for a club in England, they only have to agree to any offers they get from those clubs 

See above. And previous times I've called you out for this one. Are you going to stop claiming "replacement"? 

I don't believe he ever said replace. He said add, based on (IMO) an assumption that a sport flexible enough to add teams on a nother continent would also be flexible enough to look at how many teams are in the competition. Nobody can claim that RL isn't open to format changes.

I don't think you could call it a "promise". Something to work towards as goal, and a goal worth some effort and risk to get to. Also, if I recall correctly, the actual statement was that "we would need 5 or 6 teams" to get a bid TV deal. Not that he would be providing those, but that that would be the path to get there.

My assumption is that would have been discussed with the RFL when joining the system, but as far as I'm aware it was never definitively said whether TWP would be held responsible for finding / setting up these clubs, if it was up to the RFL to do the same, if it was agreed on as the strategy going forward. I suspect it was neither, and it was something that would be allowed to happen if it came along (seems to be the case with Ottawa and NY). If no one was agreed to be held responsible, then it was neither parties "fault" for it failing to materialize - and it hasn't failed, because we are still slowly adding those additional clubs. If it was a requirement, it would have been agreed to then, and someone would be responsible. I have seen no evidence that this is the case.

Nobody is wrong yet, except for the people predicting that TWP would close up shop at any point they have now passed yet. The story isn't over. Everything still has the "so far" qualifier applied.

I haven't heard TWP claim to be anything besides the first Transatlantic Rugby LEague team. What fans represent them as is almost meaningless in this context. But to everyone who matters (the home fans), TWP players have agreed to give their talents and bodies to bring entertainment and championships to Toronto, where they play their games. That makes them a Toronto team. Period.

Claiming Canada RL has "failed" is a statement I'd like to see you back up. Things seem to be holding steady around 5/6 clubs in BC, Ontario has 2 when they had 4 but arguably the 4 teams was over-reaching the true numbers. If you ask @Themusician_2 he'd probably happy about that due to reduced crossover with RU (not that he's the only one, just one example of that school of thought, so it's not an unequivocal negative). The men's and women's natonal teams just finished a tour to Eastern Europe where they played Serbia and Bosnia. At least two junior clubs are up and running, both well outside the city of Toronto so there is some spread as well. My point is that things are happening.

I suspect they aren't as against it as you are making out. I have no proof though, so I won't be making any definitive statements. The fact that they have been allowed up point towards the potential positives outweighing potential negatives in their eyes .

Quoted for evaluation of that statement in a few years. You're on the record now.

(Red emphasis added - you've left few other ways to highlight anything  ) 

 

Players are one resource. Money is another resource. I don't see a big deal in an entity using a resource it has to gain a resource it needs. Most of the world operates the same way.

So are you saying that you are in favour of limiting the jobs available to the existing player? You want a British monopoly on hiring British players?

I'd suggest there's a bit of supply and demand at play here. If there is an increasing demand on players, especially at the top end of the salary range, at the very least the full time part of that range, then more players will see rugby as a viable career, more will stay in the game, more player pool. The salary cap actually limits this. Not saying that shouldn't be a SC, but currently it isn't doing enough to increase demand. Arguably a larger aspect of this is clubs not spending the full amount-  something that Toronto will do, so that is a net positive.

If there were NO players it would be a different question. But, there are players available from Australia. English clubs bring them in themselves. So if English clubs wanted it enforced that more English players fill the leagues rosters, they could do that themselves. So I don't see why it's this huge problem with Toronto, or Ottawa. How many clubs it would take to have a noticeable have an effect, is a question that we won't find the answer to without adding them until, it IS a problem. But if all these clubs pay full SC, then I see the net effect of Supply and Demand, combined with the increasing profile that would come with an international league, then it should sort itself out.

 

Note that, in none of this, have I said TWP SHOULDN'T try to develop their own talent. Of course there are many reasons to do, not only altruism to the wider game, but also having cheaper players, and marketing opportunities both from advertising  homegrown players to the fan base, and from the amateur players spreading awareness to family and friends by word of mouth. However, I feel that as a private business, whose core purpose is not youth development, it should be up to them to realize those benefits and allocate resources as they see fit.

 

seriously for the last couple of years we have all given him answers.. he just chooses to ignore them and keeps on claiming "no one has been able to give me an answer"... its very tedious.. leave him be.. let him rant into the wind.. if he doesnt like your answer he will just claim in a week that you havent answered anyway so its pointless.