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Why do some people hate Toronto so much? I don’t get it, this could be a huge step in growing the game, isn’t that what we all want? 

I hate the way Toronto fans have ignored the memo to stay at home for play off games. They need to get their act together

Fear.

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On 06/10/2019 at 00:36, PatrickB said:

The other teams should focus on getting their own bums in their seats more

Mind your own business. Fans of fellow real SL clubs have been our “guests” at matches for many years, come in good numbers, are most welcome, and add a lot to the gate money, atmosphere and match experience. A TWP game will be “one to miss”.

15 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

People are right to point out TW aren’t the saviours of the game but what they have achieved in 3yrs is remarkable; unprecedented in the SL era.

What’s remarkable about a $Billionaire using $Millions buying in professionals from here to beat small part time clubs? In 2002 Fartown won every Championship game to go up.

14 hours ago, Red Willow said:

 I have concerns regarding their business practices. exciting times if they can deliver and start to develop home grown players in a few years

They can’t. Perez said this year it isn’t easy, Argyle doesn’t even try, even TWP fans on here concede they won’t produce any players for many many years to come, and Canada RU is actively working against any RL development. They willl remain a Manchester based English team...Oh whoopeee.

14 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

My only negative is what was the plan when they first entered League 1?

Jeez how many times? To produce Canadian SL players and a Canadian TV deal. Neither happened or will happen.

13 hours ago, Damien said:

9,000 odd more fans of the game

Red Herring  A.K.A. Ignoratio elenchi   beside the point,  irrelevant thesis.

Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. The deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument that TWP in reality offered the game TV money and Canadian players to get accepted to the RFL. Not crowds. Especially if they don't come here......

11 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

 when teams are winning there will always be support for them but of course the complete opposite when they don't do as well. It therefore remains to be seen what happens if/when Toronto's meteoric rise comes to a halt.

Again Fartown won every Championship game to go up and the following season they came 10th. and lost 16 games.

This is why TWP just need to get in SL then they will either deliver and save the game here or be exposed for what they are i,e, a Huddersfield without any player development or TV deal. What they aren't is glamorous, or the future of the game here.

Time for the game as a whole to have an open and honest public discussion about this beyond this small  talking shop we don't need Ottawa next.

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1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

 

Time for the game as a whole to have an open and honest public discussion about this beyond this small  talking shop we don't need Ottawa next.

If Canada RU are actively working against it, then that is the best possible news for TWP. They'll have 60 000 at,every game given their track record. They really make the RFL look competent.

If we are to have an open and honest discussion, it doesn't start with "we don't need Ottawa"....that is neither open nor honest. Nor a discussion. Just your opinion.

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3 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Hoped you'd agree with me. 

 

4 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

Why mention me ?

Sorry,  just to come back to this,  perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned you so directly,  and Im sorry if that was out of line. 

I only meant to say that you are someone who I've remembered making comments about not liking how much crossover with RU there is here, and to give a more solid example than just saying "some people" would say that less crossover resulted in 2 instead of 4 teams is necessarily the worst thing. If I'm interpreting your comments wrong,  or if you disagree with my point here, that's fine, please feel free to say so. I call enough people out on other things to take it when I'm wrong.

Either way, I stand by my original argument that CRL hasn't "failed" , they are ongoing with their ups and downs as most organizations experience at times.

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Let's lay one myth to rest right now, there is no hate for TWP though if everyone in Toronto is aspiring to be Manly it can be painted that way.

What people like Parky hate is change and as they get older they hate it more and more.

TWP represents that change and so comes into the firing line.

The Dragons came in so he changed to TWP and they are in, so he moves on to Ottawa and afterwards NY etc etc.

If NA becomes a beautiful dream for TGG where it gets the recognition it deserves Parky will still be playing Donald Duck during the Mickey Mouse Club song.

 

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" .......means always being with the oppressed and never the oppressors."-- Marek Edelman

 

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6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Mind your own business. Fans of fellow real SL clubs have been our “guests” at matches for many years, come in good numbers, are most welcome, and add a lot to the gate money, atmosphere and match experience. A TWP game will be “one to miss”.

What’s remarkable about a $Billionaire using $Millions buying in professionals from here to beat small part time clubs? In 2002 Fartown won every Championship game to go up.

They can’t. Perez said this year it isn’t easy, Argyle doesn’t even try, even TWP fans on here concede they won’t produce any players for many many years to come, and Canada RU is actively working against any RL development. They willl remain a Manchester based English team...Oh whoopeee.

Jeez how many times? To produce Canadian SL players and a Canadian TV deal. Neither happened or will happen.

Red Herring  A.K.A. Ignoratio elenchi   beside the point,  irrelevant thesis.

Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. The deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument that TWP in reality offered the game TV money and Canadian players to get accepted to the RFL. Not crowds. Especially if they don't come here......

Again Fartown won every Championship game to go up and the following season they came 10th. and lost 16 games.

This is why TWP just need to get in SL then they will either deliver and save the game here or be exposed for what they are i,e, a Huddersfield without any player development or TV deal. What they aren't is glamorous, or the future of the game here.

Time for the game as a whole to have an open and honest public discussion about this beyond this small  talking shop we don't need Ottawa next.

Funny, everyone who has gone over has said highly about the match day experience, that would make it not one to miss!

SL already has a TV deal in Canada - you can't sell rights twice - the pay off will come when the rights are up for renewal

Players will come eventually. It's ignorant to think you can build a top flight athlete in any sport in 3 years.  Obviously I do wish more was being done, but it doesnt actually bother me at this point in time

 

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Best thing SL can do now (and not in September next season) is announce a 14 team SL in 2021 - no relegation next season then 2 up from the Championship.

Everyone gets the 14 team league that's needed and Toronto (and a few other clubs) can put a 2 year plan together which will help with player recruitment and sponsorships.

It will probably help the next UK TV negotiating.

Make it happen.

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21 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

There is no new money the pack just covered the travel costs and expenses of visiting teams. This won't be done when they in super league

That is covered by the £150k+ that each SL club gets next year due to Toronto not getting any central distribution money. Assuming that those clubs don't just pass that money on to players and agents, that is.

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Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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Well done Toronto........lost one game all year and deserve to go up!

Fev had a good go and hopefully can build again for next year.  Should be a great Championship in 2020

I hope the SL treat you guys with a little more respect than they do us small time tin pot northern clubs ?

I always said i'd support you guys in SL but think i'll have to wait til you sack McDermott first after his comments at the end of the game ?

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11 hours ago, TheReaper said:

They beat a team following the same rules as them. Featherstone was free to spend as much as Toronto.

I have answered this and you know it. Nobody is "replacing" teams... if Salford gets relegated, it's because they finished last as per the rules of the competition. If an existing club was shut down when a new club was added to to league system, THAT would be "replacement". Teams are being ADDED to the system, and moving up and down between the leagues based on results.

(Yes, Hemel has "moved" to Ottawa, but they were bought and paid, and did not have to sell to anyone if they didn't want to.)

See above - nobody has "closed down"  any SL clubs. They would continue on in the Championship as they would in any case having been relegated, regardless of who got promoted.

Who is "shipping off" players? They way I see it, the players are out of contract and free agents who can sign with whoever they want to. The fact that some player have decided that playing for Toronto or other is the best opportunity for them to pursue is not a negative of Toronto. If other clubs want these players, they are free to make competitive offers. Especially now when there is an equal salary cap for all involved.

Now, the point raised has been, if the game is to be supportive of all ventures, then recognizing that some places have higher costs of living is a valid discussion to have. It could be decided that no allowances would be made, and there are valid reasons for that as well. 

As mentioned, nobody is being forced to sign for Vancouver/Toronto/NY if they don't want to. Tons of TWP players have said how excited they were to be part of the project. So there is clearly a large segment of players who are open to it. If they want to stay home and play for a club in England, they only have to agree to any offers they get from those clubs 

See above. And previous times I've called you out for this one. Are you going to stop claiming "replacement"? 

I don't believe he ever said replace. He said add, based on (IMO) an assumption that a sport flexible enough to add teams on a nother continent would also be flexible enough to look at how many teams are in the competition. Nobody can claim that RL isn't open to format changes.

I don't think you could call it a "promise". Something to work towards as goal, and a goal worth some effort and risk to get to. Also, if I recall correctly, the actual statement was that "we would need 5 or 6 teams" to get a bid TV deal. Not that he would be providing those, but that that would be the path to get there.

My assumption is that would have been discussed with the RFL when joining the system, but as far as I'm aware it was never definitively said whether TWP would be held responsible for finding / setting up these clubs, if it was up to the RFL to do the same, if it was agreed on as the strategy going forward. I suspect it was neither, and it was something that would be allowed to happen if it came along (seems to be the case with Ottawa and NY). If no one was agreed to be held responsible, then it was neither parties "fault" for it failing to materialize - and it hasn't failed, because we are still slowly adding those additional clubs. If it was a requirement, it would have been agreed to then, and someone would be responsible. I have seen no evidence that this is the case.

Nobody is wrong yet, except for the people predicting that TWP would close up shop at any point they have now passed yet. The story isn't over. Everything still has the "so far" qualifier applied.

I haven't heard TWP claim to be anything besides the first Transatlantic Rugby LEague team. What fans represent them as is almost meaningless in this context. But to everyone who matters (the home fans), TWP players have agreed to give their talents and bodies to bring entertainment and championships to Toronto, where they play their games. That makes them a Toronto team. Period.

Claiming Canada RL has "failed" is a statement I'd like to see you back up. Things seem to be holding steady around 5/6 clubs in BC, Ontario has 2 when they had 4 but arguably the 4 teams was over-reaching the true numbers. If you ask @Themusician_2 he'd probably happy about that due to reduced crossover with RU (not that he's the only one, just one example of that school of thought, so it's not an unequivocal negative). The men's and women's natonal teams just finished a tour to Eastern Europe where they played Serbia and Bosnia. At least two junior clubs are up and running, both well outside the city of Toronto so there is some spread as well. My point is that things are happening.

I suspect they aren't as against it as you are making out. I have no proof though, so I won't be making any definitive statements. The fact that they have been allowed up point towards the potential positives outweighing potential negatives in their eyes .

Quoted for evaluation of that statement in a few years. You're on the record now.

(Red emphasis added - you've left few other ways to highlight anything ? ) 

 

Players are one resource. Money is another resource. I don't see a big deal in an entity using a resource it has to gain a resource it needs. Most of the world operates the same way.

So are you saying that you are in favour of limiting the jobs available to the existing player? You want a British monopoly on hiring British players?

I'd suggest there's a bit of supply and demand at play here. If there is an increasing demand on players, especially at the top end of the salary range, at the very least the full time part of that range, then more players will see rugby as a viable career, more will stay in the game, more player pool. The salary cap actually limits this. Not saying that shouldn't be a SC, but currently it isn't doing enough to increase demand. Arguably a larger aspect of this is clubs not spending the full amount-  something that Toronto will do, so that is a net positive.

If there were NO players it would be a different question. But, there are players available from Australia. English clubs bring them in themselves. So if English clubs wanted it enforced that more English players fill the leagues rosters, they could do that themselves. So I don't see why it's this huge problem with Toronto, or Ottawa. How many clubs it would take to have a noticeable have an effect, is a question that we won't find the answer to without adding them until, it IS a problem. But if all these clubs pay full SC, then I see the net effect of Supply and Demand, combined with the increasing profile that would come with an international league, then it should sort itself out.

 

Note that, in none of this, have I said TWP SHOULDN'T try to develop their own talent. Of course there are many reasons to do, not only altruism to the wider game, but also having cheaper players, and marketing opportunities both from advertising  homegrown players to the fan base, and from the amateur players spreading awareness to family and friends by word of mouth. However, I feel that as a private business, whose core purpose is not youth development, it should be up to them to realize those benefits and allocate resources as they see fit.

 

seriously for the last couple of years we have all given him answers.. he just chooses to ignore them and keeps on claiming "no one has been able to give me an answer"... its very tedious.. leave him be.. let him rant into the wind.. if he doesnt like your answer he will just claim in a week that you havent answered anyway so its pointless.

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36 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

That is covered by the £150k+ that each SL club gets next year due to Toronto not getting any central distribution money. Assuming that those clubs don't just pass that money on to players and agents, that is.

A majority of clubs are not known for their business acumen.

Like i have have posted elsewhere if the TWP get their own TV deal don't be surprised if Super League clubs would try to get some of that money as well.

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10 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Mind your own business. Fans of fellow real SL clubs have been our “guests” at matches for many years, come in good numbers, are most welcome, and add a lot to the gate money, atmosphere and match experience. A TWP game will be “one to miss”.

What’s remarkable about a $Billionaire using $Millions buying in professionals from here to beat small part time clubs? In 2002 Fartown won every Championship game to go up.

They can’t. Perez said this year it isn’t easy, Argyle doesn’t even try, even TWP fans o?n here concede they won’t produce any players for many many years to come, and Canada RU is actively working against any RL development. They willl remain a Manchester based English team...Oh whoopeee.

Jeez how many times? To produce Canadian SL players and a Canadian TV deal. Neither happened or will happen.

Red Herring  A.K.A. Ignoratio elenchi   beside the point,  irrelevant thesis.

Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. The deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument that TWP in reality offered the game TV money and Canadian players to get accepted to the RFL. Not crowds. Especially if they don't come here......

Again Fartown won every Championship game to go up and the following season they came 10th. and lost 16 games.

This is why TWP just need to get in SL then they will either deliver and save the game here or be exposed for what they are i,e, a Huddersfield without any player development or TV deal. What they aren't is glamorous, or the future of the game here.

Time for the game as a whole to have an open and honest public discussion about this beyond this small  talking shop we don't need Ottawa next.

Really that's a new one on me. So we are expecting Canadian players after only a year or so? What cobblers. Where was this mentioned, evidence?

Like poor jokes? Thejoketeller@mullymessiah

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What’s remarkable about a $Billionaire using $Millions buying in professionals from here to beat small part time clubs? 

I'd say it's remarkable that he could be bothered in this atmosphere of negativity created by people who see nothing but the decline and ultimate disappearance of the sport. 

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Four legs good - two legs bad

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1 hour ago, JohnM said:

What’s remarkable about a $Billionaire using $Millions buying in professionals from here to beat small part time clubs? 

I'd say it's remarkable that he could be bothered in this atmosphere of negativity created by people who see nothing but the decline and ultimate disappearance of the sport. 

It is so unrealistic to expect TWP to have strong player development when they have been denied any central funding which they would have used to do just that...it is illogical.

I myself am surprised that Argyle would do it considering the way he has been treated...possibly the most hostile environment for expansion on the face of the planet...crazy.

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2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

It is so unrealistic to expect TWP to have strong player development when they have been denied any central funding which they would have used to do just that...it is illogical.

I myself am surprised that Argyle would do it considering the way he has been treated...possibly the most hostile environment for expansion on the face of the planet...crazy.

He is Australian. If you want to see hostile try operating a business there.

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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6 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

That is covered by the £150k+ that each SL club gets next year due to Toronto not getting any central distribution money. Assuming that those clubs don't just pass that money on to players and agents, that is.

Not quite. According to an article by the CBC, part of the SL demand is that Wolfpack also continue with the arrangement to pay flights and accommodation for visiting teams for one more year.

Taking blood out of both arms.

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2 minutes ago, Loup said:

Not quite. According to an article by the CBC, part of the SL demand is that Wolfpack also continue with the arrangement to pay flights and accommodation for visiting teams for one more year.

Taking blood out of both arms.

Martin Vickers confirms this on the backchat episodes from last week.

I'm telling ya Argyle will go balls out to promote our games and everything Toronto so come TV negotiations we will be a big part of the bargaining chip and he'll demand equal status then.

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6 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

That is covered by the £150k+ that each SL club gets next year due to Toronto not getting any central distribution money. Assuming that those clubs don't just pass that money on to players and agents, that is.

a portion of the money is being pit into the SL budget for marketing and such and the rest will be spent on an import players.

the Hudersfield owner talked about this in last weeks backchat, not the imports but that's just a given.

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5 minutes ago, Loup said:

Not quite. According to an article by the CBC, part of the SL demand is that Wolfpack also continue with the arrangement to pay flights and accommodation for visiting teams for one more year.

Taking blood out of both arms.

It mentioned that the Air Transat deal has been renewed. Air Canada must see significant value in the partnership.  

Now that TWP are in Super League, it will also be possible to attract a bigger sponsorship.  Any of the Canadian Big 5 Banks have major interests in the UK?  

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1 minute ago, CanadianRugger said:

It mentioned that the Air Transat deal has been renewed. Air Canada must see significant value in the partnership.  

Now that TWP are in Super League, it will also be possible to attract a bigger sponsorship.  Any of the Canadian Big 5 Banks have major interests in the UK?  

Lots of them have London offices!  

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4 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

It mentioned that the Air Transat deal has been renewed. Air Canada must see significant value in the partnership.  

Now that TWP are in Super League, it will also be possible to attract a bigger sponsorship.  Any of the Canadian Big 5 Banks have major interests in the UK?  

NO ONE has interest in the UK until Brexit it sorted, but that's for another thread.

Great news about Air Transat. we're just getting to the big league wit the larger followings so now's the best time for the deal.

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