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Brian McDermott's Big City Team League


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6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

They need to grow the pie, they need to add value over and above their own participation. That's it. That's all a club needs to do to be admitted. 

That's the criteria, what form it takes isnt particularly important, simply that they add more than they take out

This.

This seems like such a difficult concept for some to grasp and I don't understand why.

If smaller clubs can leverage the world so that they can add value beyond their own participation then that is great! 

And if a larger city team proves incompetent at it, replace their management. 

Small and big clubs can exist in the modern world. It's not all or nothing. 

 

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1 minute ago, solly said:

This.

This seems like such a difficult concept for some to grasp and I don't understand why.

If smaller clubs can leverage the world so that they can add value beyond their own participation then that is great! 

And if a larger city team proves incompetent at it, replace their management. 

Small and big clubs can exist in the modern world. It's not all or nothing. 

 

But as pretty much everything , it's usually subjective what contribution any given club can offer , or indeed already gives ?

That's the difficult bit ?

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1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

CFL isnt a north american sport. Its a Canadian sport that is based around the Canadian population centers. There is an American version of the CFL, its called the NFL and is also based around population centers. 

If we applied the CFL distribution to RL we would have sides in London, Birmingham, Leeds, liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Sheffield etc. 

No, in this context North America is the England equivalent, as a lot of the sports span both countries (all but NFL and CFL)? CFL has tried (and failed) to expand into the USA so is very much like RL. I don’t believe for one minute that CFL wouldn’t still love a load of teams in the USA, trouble is as they showed expansion is nowhere near as easy as you think it is. 

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Has there ever been much research done into where Wigan, St Helens and Warrington (just as examples) draw support from beyond their boundaries?

Do the clubs themselves study this kind of data?  In the 80s/early 90s, I know Wigan used to pull in support from north Bolton for example, but there doesn’t seem much targeting of it these days from what I can gather.

Has that kind of aspirational stuff been killed off along with the concept of service areas etc?

My biggest problem with the big city league talk is nobody can really illustrate how we get there from where we are now.  Maximising your catchment area could be one transitional method.

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14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Hang on, your argument was that the CFL was a competition that had stuck to small towns. Now you are arguing that they are a competition that has moved to the biggest population centers it can and would love to move to bigger. 

You're now arguing against your own position. 

No I’m not. I’m saying it’s in relatively small towns / markets by North American standards (like RL is by English standards) and therefore according to your logic should be looking to expand into bigger cities. However I am saying that your logic is flawed and RL trying to expand to loads of big cities in non RL areas won’t work (as has been proven umpteen times in fact), just like it didn’t work for CFL. Capisce?

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48 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But as pretty much everything , it's usually subjective what contribution any given club can offer , or indeed already gives ?

That's the difficult bit ?

Participation rates, club membership numbers, crowd figures, gate takings, merchandise sales, sponsorship value, television ratings, player wages, media cover age, social media engagement...

Not subject in the slightest. 

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17 minutes ago, solly said:

Participation rates, club membership numbers, crowd figures, gate takings, merchandise sales, sponsorship value, television ratings, player wages, media cover age, social media engagement...

Not subject in the slightest. 

It is if you are judging those criteria ( that word again ) against clubs in and also out of SL ? , and also what ' weighting ' you give to these different areas ?

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21 minutes ago, solly said:

Participation rates, club membership numbers, crowd figures, gate takings, merchandise sales, sponsorship value, television ratings, player wages, media cover age, social media engagement...

Not subject in the slightest. 

Just as an example , how do you judge television ratings between a club in SL and one in the Championship ? , Ditto sponsorship ( TV exposure obviously affects this ) , where do you draw the line at participation rates between a Cas and a Fev ?

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3 hours ago, RobertAM said:

OK so let's take a look at the crystal ball...say ParqueCiders dream comes true and SL doesn't want us in a few years..mebbe because we're pasting their little darlings a bit too regularly..and they are looking for a legal loophole to kick us out. OSEG have Ottawa going well in the Championship attracting Lamport size crowds every match..NYRL is doing decently at the top of L1 and other International cities are knocking on the door. MLSE by this time are very interested in the Wolfpack because they are outdrawing the Argos.

So both groups have a chat with David Argyle, Eric Perez and the Yanks and a new consortium is formed and they make a bid for EVERY SINGLE SL team with a view to putting the entire shebang back under the management of RFL. L1 remains totally amateur, Championship is a hybrid FT/PT and SL remains fully pro. RL now becomes THE code the world watches.  These guys have the money to do it........

Why would they mess about with the small time traditional teams in SL though?  They won't fit in a big city league and relocating them would make plenty of enemies, so better to set up a whole new league and leave the small time traditional teams where they are instead.

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4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Why would they mess about with the small time traditional teams in SL though?  They won't fit in a big city league and relocating them would make plenty of enemies, so better to set up a whole new league and leave the small time traditional teams where they are instead.

How would you run your player production ?

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2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

How would you run your player production ?

Like other things, in the same manner as the major North American pro leagues.  Their operating methods are the proven way to make pro sports a profitable investment for franchise owners so I'd adopt them all lock, stock and barrel.

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4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Like other things, in the same manner as the major North American pro leagues.  Their operating methods are the proven way to make pro sports a profitable investment for franchise owners so I'd adopt them all lock, stock and barrel.

By offering scholarships at University's ? , And then a draft ?

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Just now, GUBRATS said:

By offering scholarships at University's ? , And then a draft ?

University scholarships aren't funded by pro leagues, but by the universities themselves and their financial donors.  Of course I'd have a draft, that's an integral part of the successful North American model.

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3 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

University scholarships aren't funded by pro leagues, but by the universities themselves and their financial donors.  Of course I'd have a draft, that's an integral part of the successful North American model.

So you'd want UK university's to offer potential players scholarships , then have a draft ?

Do UK uni's offer sports scholarships ?

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33 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Just as an example , how do you judge television ratings between a club in SL and one in the Championship ? , Ditto sponsorship ( TV exposure obviously affects this ) , where do you draw the line at participation rates between a Cas and a Fev ?

I suppose by the ratings numbers... 

I'm not a marketer so I don’t know the techniques they use to compare data and assess its relevance.

But it can be done. 

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Just now, solly said:

I suppose by the ratings numbers... 

I'm not a marketer so I don’t know the techniques they use to compare data and assess its relevance.

But it can be done. 

But the SL club will be on TV at least 5 times a year , the Championship club possibly just once 

As I said , who do you allow to claim participantion between Leigh and Wigan ? , Who gets Golborne and Hindley ?

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21 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So you'd want UK university's to offer potential players scholarships , then have a draft ?

Do UK uni's offer sports scholarships ?

Players don't always get drafted from universities, most players taken in the NHL entry draft come from Major Junior leagues or overseas leagues and varsity players are a minority.

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1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

Players don't always get drafted from universities, most players taken in the NHL entry draft come from Major Junior leagues or overseas leagues and varsity players are a minority.

So how exactly would you do it ? , Draft from where ? 

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Just now, Big Picture said:

The same way as other drafts are conducted of course.

I don't know how other drafts happen apart from the NFL which I presume is through University's , that's why I'm asking , just saying " like that one " means nothing to me or most UK sports fans , so do you know or not ?

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45 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Why would they mess about with the small time traditional teams in SL though?  They won't fit in a big city league and relocating them would make plenty of enemies, so better to set up a whole new league and leave the small time traditional teams where they are instead.

As much as purists would decry it (and it would be sad to lose some storied names)  I think mergers and consolidation of some teams is inevitable if RL is to survive and hopefully prosper. The "dead in the water" change from Swinton to Manchester shows how hard it would be. But the attendances at some games is pitiful and bound to get worse as the old guard passes on. Maybe newer fans would cope with change - the trick is getting the new fans interested and I think expansion will help unless the closed minded attitudes prevail.

All i wanted to do is demonstrate how new money could come into the sport and heaven knows it is sorely needed - even in SL there are only a handful of clubs with serious money behind them.

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7 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

As much as purists would decry it (and it would be sad to lose some storied names)  I think mergers and consolidation of some teams is inevitable if RL is to survive and hopefully prosper. The "dead in the water" change from Swinton to Manchester shows how hard it would be. But the attendances at some games is pitiful and bound to get worse as the old guard passes on. Maybe newer fans would cope with change - the trick is getting the new fans interested and I think expansion will help unless the closed minded attitudes prevail.

All i wanted to do is demonstrate how new money could come into the sport and heaven knows it is sorely needed - even in SL there are only a handful of clubs with serious money behind them.

' Consolidation ' meaning what ?

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27 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But the SL club will be on TV at least 5 times a year , the Championship club possibly just once 

As I said , who do you allow to claim participantion between Leigh and Wigan ? , Who gets Golborne and Hindley ?

Again, I don't know the answer to that other than to say that there are likely to be statisical methods that are used.

I'd also add that of course people can draw the wrong conclusions from data but competent administrators, managers and marketers ought to be able to work through that.

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