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Smudger06

Brian McDermott's Big City Team League

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6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

That's still closer to 2k at London than 14k at leeds.

This isn't a criticism of fev. They are what they are, a great community club. They have a valuable place in the game being that. It is, naturally, the position in the game they have gravitated to. 

They just arent comparable to some of the clubs being mentioned here in this thread. 

Most of these so called Clubs don't even exist.

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

Of course team owners would fund it.  Among the things which their franchise fees would do is provide capital for the league's startup costs which would include setting up and staffing a league office which would need a multilingual capability so that when a sports reporter from a media outlet in the region where one of the franchises is based calls up looking for information about the league for his or her story about the league franchise in that area, the information can be supplied in that media outlet's language of publication/broadcast (which in Barcelona for example could be either Catalan or Castilian [aka "Spanish"]), and also retaining one or more top marketing/advertising firms to design a promotional campaign(s) capable of breaking through the combination of lack of awareness of the game and negative views of it among the public in all the league's franchise territories so the necessary demand for tickets, merchandise and the like can be created in each franchise's territory.  The total raised from franchise fees should be enough to cover all such costs and leave a surplus for the league's costs of operating its office, paying match officials, etc. during the league's early years.

Who would be likely to own one of these clubs though?

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5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Who would be likely to own one of these clubs though?

Either Some kind of hybrid big equity - RL sports nuts or Jeff bezos (read: noone)

The risk is too large now, and the near future looks the same.  

Maybe in many years we will see it happen, if the RFLs (unintended) international expansion becomes incredibly successful then maybe, but that will take years (if not decades) to come to fruition.

I'm not trying to be too negative here, I love the idea in principle. Just looking at my perception of reality

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1 minute ago, Eddie said:

Who would be likely to own one of these clubs though?

The sort of investors who might otherwise buy into one of the established major pro leagues in the world, attracted by a ground floor opportunity in the major league pro sports business which has tremendous growth potential due to its multinational reach and the serious, professional way its organizers would go about setting it up yet would have a bargain price tag compared to those of franchises in an established major pro league, the least expensive of which is Major League Soccer, which now has a fee of 200 million US$.  Investors familiar with those established major pro leagues will already be aware of the steady rise in franchise values in those leagues which has occurred during the past 25-30 years, so they would need to see that the new league is structured to follow that same route to franchise values higher than their initial outlay.

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40 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Just to remind everyone, this chap used the word “realistically” in one of his posts earlier. Presumably, by mistake. 

Not at all by mistake.  For a league with franchises in big, globally recognized cities to take flight it would have to be carefully and solidly planned in a way which takes account of both the opportunities and the obstacles which would have to be overcome, and that plan would have to be carried out in full to make it a success.

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17 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The sort of investors who might otherwise buy into one of the established major pro leagues in the world, attracted by a ground floor opportunity in the major league pro sports business which has tremendous growth potential due to its multinational reach and the serious, professional way its organizers would go about setting it up yet would have a bargain price tag compared to those of franchises in an established major pro league, the least expensive of which is Major League Soccer, which now has a fee of 200 million US$.  Investors familiar with those established major pro leagues will already be aware of the steady rise in franchise values in those leagues which has occurred during the past 25-30 years, so they would need to see that the new league is structured to follow that same route to franchise values higher than their initial outlay.

Can you be more specific?

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4 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Can you be more specific?

Not at present, though I have identified a couple of parties who'd be good to get on board with such a league.

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

Not at all by mistake.  For a league with franchises in big, globally recognized cities to take flight it would have to be carefully and solidly planned in a way which takes account of both the opportunities and the obstacles which would have to be overcome, and that plan would have to be carried out in full to make it a success.

A phrase people learn when organizing is “that’s a great idea! You should do that”

If you believe in it, make it happen. 

PM me and I will see if I can help. 

Edited by Bob8
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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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9 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

In my lifetime, where the vast majority of the competition has been straight P+R, clubs from sheffield, Wales, and London have seen more success than Fev. There is a reason for that, it isnt unfairness or some conspiracy theory. 

It is money has flowed to these places, because of where these places are. It hasnt to fev. 

So what happened? 

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

Not at present, though I have identified a couple of parties who'd be good to get on board with such a league.

Are they interested? 

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3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Of course team owners would fund it.  Among the things which their franchise fees would do is provide capital for the league's startup costs which would include setting up and staffing a league office which would need a multilingual capability so that when a sports reporter from a media outlet in the region where one of the franchises is based calls up looking for information about the league for his or her story about the league franchise in that area, the information can be supplied in that media outlet's language of publication/broadcast (which in Barcelona for example could be either Catalan or Castilian [aka "Spanish"]), and also retaining one or more top marketing/advertising firms to design a promotional campaign(s) capable of breaking through the combination of lack of awareness of the game and negative views of it among the public in all the league's franchise territories so the necessary demand for tickets, merchandise and the like can be created in each franchise's territory.  The total raised from franchise fees should be enough to cover all such costs and leave a surplus for the league's costs of operating its office, paying match officials, etc. during the league's early years.

The Franchise Fees shouldn't go to the League. 

The League should be it's own legal entity but which is itself 100% owned by its parent Company, ideally the RLIF. 

All Franchise Fees should be transferred immediately and in full to the RLIF. The RLIF to distribute grants to uphold the community game and support the International game as it sees fit, in the best interests of the sport, globally. 

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37 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

The Franchise Fees shouldn't go to the League. 

The League should be it's own legal entity but which is itself 100% owned by its parent Company, ideally the RLIF. 

All Franchise Fees should be transferred immediately and in full to the RLIF. The RLIF to distribute grants to uphold the community game and support the International game as it sees fit, in the best interests of the sport, globally. 

Of course they should go to the League, that's how franchise-based leagues in North America are set up.  If they didn't go to the League, where else do you expect it to get the money needed for its startup costs and promotional campaign???

And you don't seriously think that the RLIF would be competent to set up such a league do you? 😂😂😂😂

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

Of course they should go to the League, that's how franchise-based leagues in North America are set up.  If they didn't go to the League, where else do you expect it to get the money needed for its startup costs and promotional campaign???

And you don't seriously think that the RLIF would be competent to set up such a league do you? 😂😂😂😂

How very pompous of you. 

News though......

There's more than one way to skin a cat. 

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8 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Where are Fev buddy?

The statement all big clubs are in big conurbations it's not disproven by the fact some big conurbations have small clubs or none at all.

Nor does the idea that some clubs in big cities fail prove that small clubs in small towns will succeed. 

Even if only 1 in 10 clubs in big conurbations grow to become big clubs it is still a better way of creating big clubs than simply giving up and accepting small clubs being small

Which club from a big conurbation has grown into a big club?  Gateshead Thunder were the last attempt.  Finished up merging with Hull.  If Big clubs in big cities fails and small clubs in small towns fail, erm what does that leave?

Featherstone is a small former mining town with a population of about 15K  but there's Ponte Kottingley, Ferrybridge, Ackworth, Hemsworth, South Elmsall.  All areas where Fev pull fans from.  Had they been in SL for as long as Wakey who knows where their crowds would be today.

The big city thing has been tried not once but loads of times in the history of the game.  Good luck to Toronto.  But football apart, flying across the Atlantic for a game of football week in week out can hardly be described as ecologically sound.

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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13 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

How very pompous of you. 

News though......

There's more than one way to skin a cat. 

Not pompous at all, realistic.  No one is going to pay the sort of franchise fee which a league like that would merit unless they're getting serious value for their money.  The value would be in the league's operating plan, the particular legal rights which come with the franchise and the league's commitment and ability to use that money wisely as it begins operations.

If you believe that the RLIF has either the manpower, nous or financial means to set up such an international big city league, please feel free to explain what leads you to believe that it does bearing in mind that the RLIF failed to hold the organizers of the last World Cup in Australia to the funding guarantee which they made when their bid was accepted.

Edited by Big Picture

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Were I a casual sports fan looking for something to watch on a Saturday night and came across a listing for Super League Grand Final: Liverpool vs. Manchester I would be far more inclined to watch than Super League Grand Final: St. Helens vs. Salford.

Edited by TIWIT

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1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

Were I a casual sports fan looking for something to watch on a Saturday night and came across a listing for Super League Grand Final: Liverpool vs. Manchester I would be far more inclined to watch than Super League Grand Final: St. Helens vs. Salford.

If I were a casual sports fan looking for something to watch, I'd be much more inclined to watch Green Bay vs New England than New York vs Washington. 

No one, apart from you it seems, watches sport based on the names of the teams involved. 

Where you may be right at a stretch is that people from Manchester and Liverpool may be more inclined to watch if those were the team names. But someone from Leicester or Kansas City probably won't give a hoot what the team is playing. If they know and like RL, they may choose to watch. If they don't, they're probably not gonna watch even if it's New York vs London. 

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8 hours ago, Trojan said:

Which club from a big conurbation has grown into a big club?  

The big city thing has been tried not once but loads of times in the history of the game. 

In the 1860's pioneers were Huddersfield, Hull Leigh and York and the 1870's were such as Wigan St. Helens Wakefield Salford and Warrington and of course later entrants like Leeds and Castleford took their strength from the dominance of the Rugby Code over football, in the early years.   Those were the years of growth.

Growth faltered for the Rugby code with the advent of the far more popular game of soccer, and 1888 gave us the Football league and that just about stifled the growth of Rugby per se, and then in 1896 Rugby split geographically. We ended up isolated in the north of England with little chance of any growth in other places that were almost invariably soccer dominated with any Rugby interest rooted in the Union game. Sure these games were exported and Australia took to League, but wherever League wishes to expand now they have union to contend with, soccer to contend with and in places like Canada and the USA other forms of "Football" with long histories of dominance.

It's not just that. To grow a club you need very rich investors to invest. They have to have a strong affinity with RL to do so so it's either Northern Businessmen or Australian Businessmen who grew up with League who want to invest. Even in Canada there are no such persons as of course David Argyle is Australian and rooted in the NRL. 

RL Clubs do spring up in the unlikeliest of places thanks to an RL enthusiast organising interested parties. Some rugby people do prefer league around the world, but we are talking amateur and not Professional - the gap is immense. In RL since 1896 we have allowed about 50 clubs to enter the professional ranks and of course many of those have been city's like London, Liverpool, Sheffield, Nottingham. Newcastle etc. The latter a work in progress the former failures. 

It's not just investors we need - all the 50 failures had investors some VERY rich ones, but Mr. Argyle proves that to get anywhere at all in the pro ranks outside the heartlands you have to be prepared to lose ££Millions and lose that year on year year after year. Argyle may actually do that until the grim reaper calls, but you can forget the Euro League Fantasy, the Transatlantic League Fantasy and of course the World League fantasy. 

Mr. McDermott will say and back anything his paymasters require. In this case he will make the excuse that TWP have now created a roaring success with TWP and it's up to others now to follow suit, it's up to the Superleague board of directors to get behind finding more clubs - after all Barcelona, Copenhagen, Belgrade, Ottawa, New York, Montreal Perth and Vancouver are all ready to go - all inspired by the advent of Toronto Wolfpack. TWP have done the groundwork - it's up to SL bosses to seize the day. Thus the almost certain demise of TWP the best thing since sliced baloney will be all Superleagues fault the day it happens. 

Big Picture can see the dream. All it takes is finding mega rich sports minded people from places they generally don't like Rugby and if they do it will invariably be Rugby Union they had watched, played and loved. Good luck to BP and good luck to Bob8 who offers his help. But it's not for me - I like what I like and so do 150,000 RL enthusiasts  who will be putting TWP under the microscope next year.

Edited by The Parksider
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When the going gets tough on one thread and people actually counter the arguments, run and hijack another thread and try turn it into another twp #@@#fest.  

And repeat.

Edited by Omott91
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8 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Were I a casual sports fan looking for something to watch on a Saturday night and came across a listing for Super League Grand Final: Liverpool vs. Manchester I would be far more inclined to watch than Super League Grand Final: St. Helens vs. Salford.

and that's what it's all about with big city teams  it isn't about getting bums on seats  or standing behind the posts in the pouring rain watching YOUR team it's all about TV viewing  figure remember when it all started  sky insisted that a new team PSG and mid table second division team London joined the party to give the game more appeal 

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1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

In the 1860's pioneers were Huddersfield, Hull Leigh and York and the 1870's were such as Wigan St. Helens Wakefield Salford and Warrington and of course later entrants like Leeds and Castleford took their strength from the dominance of the Rugby Code over football, in the early years.   Those were the years of growth.

Growth faltered for the Rugby code with the advent of the far more popular game of soccer, and 1888 gave us the Football league and that just about stifled the growth of Rugby per se, and then in 1896 Rugby split geographically. We ended up isolated in the north of England with little chance of any growth in other places that were almost invariably soccer dominated with any Rugby interest rooted in the Union game. Sure these games were exported and Australia took to League, but wherever League wishes to expand now they have union to contend with, soccer to contend with and in places like Canada and the USA other forms of "Football" with long histories of dominance.

It's not just that. To grow a club you need very rich investors to invest. They have to have a strong affinity with RL to do so so it's either Northern Businessmen or Australian Businessmen who grew up with League who want to invest. Even in Canada there are no such persons as of course David Argyle is Australian and rooted in the NRL. 

RL Clubs do spring up in the unlikeliest of places thanks to an RL enthusiast organising interested parties. Some rugby people do prefer league around the world, but we are talking amateur and not Professional - the gap is immense. In RL since 1896 we have allowed about 50 clubs to enter the professional ranks and of course many of those have been city's like London, Liverpool, Sheffield, Nottingham. Newcastle etc. The latter a work in progress the former failures. 

It's not just investors we need - all the 50 failures had investors some VERY rich ones, but Mr. Argyle proves that to get anywhere at all in the pro ranks outside the heartlands you have to be prepared to lose ££Millions and lose that year on year year after year. Argyle may actually do that until the grim reaper calls, but you can forget the Euro League Fantasy, the Transatlantic League Fantasy and of course the World League fantasy. 

Mr. McDermott will say and back anything his paymasters require. In this case he will make the excuse that TWP have now created a roaring success with TWP and it's up to others now to follow suit, it's up to the Superleague board of directors to get behind finding more clubs - after all Barcelona, Copenhagen, Belgrade, Ottawa, New York, Montreal Perth and Vancouver are all ready to go - all inspired by the advent of Toronto Wolfpack. TWP have done the groundwork - it's up to SL bosses to seize the day. Thus the almost certain demise of TWP the best thing since sliced baloney will be all Superleagues fault the day it happens. 

Big Picture can see the dream. All it takes is finding mega rich sports minded people from places they generally don't like Rugby and if they do it will invariably be Rugby Union they had watched, played and loved. Good luck to BP and good luck to Bob8 who offers his help. But it's not for me - I like what I like and so do 150,000 RL enthusiasts  who will be putting TWP under the microscope next year.

I must admit that when Fulham took up the game in 1980 I thought it was a new chapter. If soccer's management expertise and money could be channeled into RL then the sky was the limit (I thought)  But I thought wrong. It's true they invested in a competitive team. But they didn't follow through the following season after promotion.  All they wanted was something to use the stadium in the off weeks.  At the time there were loads of copycat attempts from soccer clubs. Cardiff Blue Dragons signed some big name Union players, plus George Nichols, they were launched with a huge fanfare.  But it fell on its ######, because there was no follow through.  No one willing to throw money at the scheme.  Same in Nottingham (although I think the miners strike also affected that venture) Carlisle, Scarborough. Everywhere its been tried and even in London who somehow are still there, it's failed. 

We have a wonderful game.  IMO the football played in the Championship is more enterprising and entertaining than the five drives and a kick that SL seems to be becoming and deserves a wider audience.  For me the only real showcase is international football. A successful GB/England side, albeit peppered with Englishmen playing in Oz could spark interest.  After all that's what happens in NZ most of their top players are playing in the NRL.

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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11 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Of course they should go to the League, that's how franchise-based leagues in North America are set up.  If they didn't go to the League, where else do you expect it to get the money needed for its startup costs and promotional campaign???

And you don't seriously think that the RLIF would be competent to set up such a league do you? 😂😂😂😂

As I said the Franchise Fees should be passed in full to the League's parent company for the greater good. 

Where else do i expect the money to come from? Why the TV Deal dear fellow! 

Central Revenue split 54% to team owners, 40% stays with the league to cover these costs you mention. 6% prize purse.

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13 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

So what happened? 

What do you mean what happened?

London have been relegated and sheffield play in the championship and we have gone from 0 welsh teams to two

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10 hours ago, Trojan said:

Which club from a big conurbation has grown into a big club?  Gateshead Thunder were the last attempt.  Finished up merging with Hull.  If Big clubs in big cities fails and small clubs in small towns fail, erm what does that leave?

Featherstone is a small former mining town with a population of about 15K  but there's Ponte Kottingley, Ferrybridge, Ackworth, Hemsworth, South Elmsall.  All areas where Fev pull fans from.  Had they been in SL for as long as Wakey who knows where their crowds would be today.

The big city thing has been tried not once but loads of times in the history of the game.  Good luck to Toronto.  But football apart, flying across the Atlantic for a game of football week in week out can hardly be described as ecologically sound.

All our big clubs have

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17 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

All our big clubs have

Wigan? St Helens, Warrington?  Wakefield?  hardly megalopolises.  The only SL club in what could be described as a major UK city is Leeds.  And in terms of crowds they can't really be said to pull their weight percentagewise.

You have to wait for dead men's shoes to get a season ticket at Newcastle United, and they're not the biggest or most successful soccer club. Even Leeds don't have that situation.

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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