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Smudger06

Brian McDermott's Big City Team League

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45 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Why would they mess about with the small time traditional teams in SL though?  They won't fit in a big city league and relocating them would make plenty of enemies, so better to set up a whole new league and leave the small time traditional teams where they are instead.

As much as purists would decry it (and it would be sad to lose some storied names)  I think mergers and consolidation of some teams is inevitable if RL is to survive and hopefully prosper. The "dead in the water" change from Swinton to Manchester shows how hard it would be. But the attendances at some games is pitiful and bound to get worse as the old guard passes on. Maybe newer fans would cope with change - the trick is getting the new fans interested and I think expansion will help unless the closed minded attitudes prevail.

All i wanted to do is demonstrate how new money could come into the sport and heaven knows it is sorely needed - even in SL there are only a handful of clubs with serious money behind them.

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7 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

As much as purists would decry it (and it would be sad to lose some storied names)  I think mergers and consolidation of some teams is inevitable if RL is to survive and hopefully prosper. The "dead in the water" change from Swinton to Manchester shows how hard it would be. But the attendances at some games is pitiful and bound to get worse as the old guard passes on. Maybe newer fans would cope with change - the trick is getting the new fans interested and I think expansion will help unless the closed minded attitudes prevail.

All i wanted to do is demonstrate how new money could come into the sport and heaven knows it is sorely needed - even in SL there are only a handful of clubs with serious money behind them.

' Consolidation ' meaning what ?

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27 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But the SL club will be on TV at least 5 times a year , the Championship club possibly just once 

As I said , who do you allow to claim participantion between Leigh and Wigan ? , Who gets Golborne and Hindley ?

Again, I don't know the answer to that other than to say that there are likely to be statisical methods that are used.

I'd also add that of course people can draw the wrong conclusions from data but competent administrators, managers and marketers ought to be able to work through that.

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19 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I don't know how other drafts happen apart from the NFL which I presume is through University's , that's why I'm asking , just saying " like that one " means nothing to me or most UK sports fans , so do you know or not ?

Drafts have been standard practice over here for a few decades now and they pretty much follow one standard template.  Every year the leagues conduct an entry draft of players from the non-professional ranks and in some cases from pro teams elsewhere in the world; an example of the latter is Spanish basketball player Pau Gaso who was drafted by the Atlanta Hawks in 2001 though he'd previously played for FC Barcelona's basketball team.

Teams typically draft in reverse order of their finish from the previous season, and when a player is drafted that team owns his rights in respect of playing in that league and no one else in the league can sign him.  Sometimes a player refuses to sign for the team which drafted him and that team trades his rights to another and he then signs with that other team instead.  An example of that is quaterback Eli Manning who was drafted by San Diego which made him the first pick overall in the 2004 NFL Draft and then traded his rights to the New York Giants for quarterback Phil Rivers and three additional draft picks which were a third-round pick in that 2004 draft, a first-round pick in 2005 and a fifth-round pick in 2005.  Rivers and the players chosen with those additional picks helped turn San Diego from an also-ran into a contender.

Edited by Big Picture

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1 minute ago, solly said:

Again, I don't know the answer to that other than to say that there are likely to be statisical methods that are used.

I'd also add that of course people can draw the wrong conclusions from data but competent administrators, managers and marketers ought to be able to work through that.

So it is subjective then ? , Somebody would have to decide firstly what various criteria would be used , and then what weighting each would have ?

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2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Drafts have been standard practice over here for a few decades now and they pretty much follow one standard template.  Every year the leagues conduct an entry draft of players from the non-professional ranks and in some cases from pro teams elsewhere in the world; an example of the latter is Spanish basketball player Pau Gaso who was drafted by the Atlanta Hawks in 2001 though he'd previously played for FC Barcelona's basketball team.

Teams typically draft in reverse order of their finish from the previous season, and when a player is drafted that team owns his rights in respect of playing in that league and no one else in the league can sign him.  Sometimes a player refuses to sign for the team which drafted him and that team trades his rights to another and he then signs with that other team instead.  An example of that is quaterback Eli Manning who was drafted by San Diego which made him the first pick overall in the 2004 NFL Draft and then traded his rights to the New York Giants for quarterback Phil Rivers and three additional draft picks which were a third-round pick in that 2004 draft, a first-round pick in 2005 and and fifth-round pick in 2005.  Rivers and the players chosen with those additional picks helped turn San Diego from an also-ran into a contender.

So who would they draft from ?

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18 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

As much as purists would decry it (and it would be sad to lose some storied names)  I think mergers and consolidation of some teams is inevitable if RL is to survive and hopefully prosper. The "dead in the water" change from Swinton to Manchester shows how hard it would be. But the attendances at some games is pitiful and bound to get worse as the old guard passes on. Maybe newer fans would cope with change - the trick is getting the new fans interested and I think expansion will help unless the closed minded attitudes prevail.

All i wanted to do is demonstrate how new money could come into the sport and heaven knows it is sorely needed - even in SL there are only a handful of clubs with serious money behind them.

I suggest that Swinton's rebranding being scuttled by opponents shows that going that route is pretty much a non-starter.  Better to leave those teams as they are and they can continue as before and make a clean fresh start.

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So who would they draft from ?

All over, just like the NHL and NBA do.  They'd have to be free agents to be signed though, tampering with players who are under contract couldn't be allowed without opening up a legal minefield.

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1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

 

All over, just like the NHL and NBA do.  They'd have to be free agents to be signed though, tampering with players who are under contract couldn't be allowed without opening up a legal minefield.

All over who ? 

Edited by GUBRATS

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2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I suggest that Swinton's rebranding being scuttled by opponents shows that going that route is pretty much a non-starter.  Better to leave those teams as they are and they can continue as before and make a clean fresh start.

 

' Opponents ' ? , You mean the clubs customers , the fans ? 

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8 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

i.e. the players could come from anywhere.

You're obviously struggling here on this , so do you mean the amateur clubs ? , At I assume a set age ? , Maybe 21 ?

Along with this you suggest all bar a couple of current clubs aren't part of the ' World League ' , so they would continue in a national UK SL I assume ? , Would they continue with the existing development systems they run ? , If they still in that case got similar levels of income via TV and attendances as they do currently would they be happy to spend money developing their own players ?

The structures in place for the draft systems in NA don't exist in other parts of the world in any sports as far as I am aware , so applying that system just wouldn't work IMO

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33 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

' Consolidation ' meaning what ?

You have clubs almost within walking distance of each other each getting a diminishing number of fans...I realize these are clubs that have existed for decades..heck my dad used to take me to watch them...but really how long can they go on?...forever i suppose if their owners can afford it but that isn't the case..so do they get together and survive or stay separate and whither away?  Sad I know but its Darwins theory transposed to RL

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2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You're obviously struggling here on this , so do you mean the amateur clubs ? , At I assume a set age ? , Maybe 21 ?

Along with this you suggest all bar a couple of current clubs aren't part of the ' World League ' , so they would continue in a national UK SL I assume ? , Would they continue with the existing development systems they run ? , If they still in that case got similar levels of income via TV and attendances as they do currently would they be happy to spend money developing their own players ?

The structures in place for the draft systems in NA don't exist in other parts of the world in any sports as far as I am aware , so applying that system just wouldn't work IMO

I mean players of a certain age, e.g. 19 or older, from either the non-professional or professional ranks.

Sure a draft system would work, it works in basketball and ice hockey where players from Europe and elsewhere beyond North America are routinely drafted and signed.  The potential to play in a high-profile multinational league should stimulate player development by giving more boys and young men an interest in playing RL, in just the same way as the NBA admitting franchises in Canada stimulated the growth of basketball here.

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1 minute ago, RobertAM said:

You have clubs almost within walking distance of each other each getting a diminishing number of fans...I realize these are clubs that have existed for decades..heck my dad used to take me to watch them...but really how long can they go on?...forever i suppose if their owners can afford it but that isn't the case..so do they get together and survive or stay separate and whither away?  Sad I know but its Darwins theory transposed to RL

So get ' together ' ? , So merge ? , And play where ? , Be called what ? , Let's use Leigh as an example ? , Consolidate us ? , I await your response with anticipation 😀

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Just now, Big Picture said:

I mean players of a certain age, e.g. 19 or older, from either the non-professional or professional ranks.

Sure a draft system would work, it works in basketball and ice hockey where players from Europe and elsewhere beyond North America are routinely drafted and signed.  The potential to play in a high-profile multinational league should stimulate player development by giving more boys and young men an interest in playing RL, in just the same way as the NBA admitting franchises in Canada stimulated the growth of basketball here.

So from either amateur and pro clubs ? , So you want the pro clubs to carry on developing players to have all their best ' drafted ' away from them ? 

When a player gets drafted is there a payment to whatever body he was affiliated to ?

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6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So from either amateur and pro clubs ? , So you want the pro clubs to carry on developing players to have all their best ' drafted ' away from them ? 

When a player gets drafted is there a payment to whatever body he was affiliated to ?

Terms would obviously have to be worked out if a player who's under contract is going to be signed, just as in any other case of such a player moving from one team to another.  No fees are legally mandated for players who are out of contract, they are legally free agents.

Edited by Big Picture

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1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

Terms would obviously have to be worked out if a player who's under contract is going to be signed, just as in any other case of such a player moving from one team to another.  No fees are legally mandated for players who are out of contract, they are legally free agents.

So pro clubs would get payment , amateur clubs wouldn't ? 

Do you believe the fans of these pro clubs would continue to follow their clubs knowing they would be losing all their best players ? 

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On 15/10/2019 at 21:06, Gerrumonside ref said:

The theory is probably quite sound that a league of big cities would be more lucrative to a broadcaster than the current set-up.

We have, and have had clubs in Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, London, Coventry, Manchester and Cardiff. All large populations, and all very capable indeed of attracting no more than a few hundred fans. Broadcasters know that the kind of clubs who pull the audiences are Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Leeds, Hull and at one time Bradford.

Everyone on this silly dreamland thread thinks that the support clubs get only comes from within their town boundaries and that is garbage. When Cas get a 9,000 crowd that isn't one in four people in Cas going to the match.  Everyone thinks they only watch soccer in Liverpool and Rugby in St.Helens. People travel and anyone who likes RL in Liverpool can go to saints and vice versa for the soccer. 

There are no "sound theories" on here.

On 15/10/2019 at 20:58, GUBRATS said:

Scotchy does have a point , it has long been my argument that ' small town ' clubs like Leigh need to concentrate on building their fan bases if they ever want to get to and stay in the top tier , they will never draw the corporate support that big towns and city's get , they just don't have the businesses to get that support 

Scotchy's never had point in all his time on here. You know full well what clubs like Leigh need and it is someone like Derek Beaumont spending his money on good players to take Leigh into Superleague where in normal years they would not have been relegated as they came 11th.  In Cas I can't think of much "corporate business" after Hicksons left, nor can I think of any corporate facilities of note at Wheldon Road but Castleford compete thanks to Ian Fulton's money. 

Everyone's pushing imaginary clubs around the table like it's a board game. The reality is that investment in Rugby league comes mostly from dyed in the wool Rugby League people, who come from Rugby league land. As I say we have a London club thanks to a Swinton man, we have a phoney Canadian club thanks to an Australian NRL fan etc etc, that's the reality, but somehow less and less of us can keep a handle on reality.

3 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Has there ever been much research done into where Wigan, St Helens and Warrington (just as examples) draw support from beyond their boundaries?

My biggest problem with the big city league talk is nobody can really illustrate how we get there from where we are now.  Maximising your catchment area could be one transitional method.

Yes loads of research. We no longer are born bred, live and die in the same place so clubs pull fans from significantly wide  catchment areas which overlap. People have cars now and people in RL towns go watch soccer, people in soccer towns go elsewehere to watch Rugby league. On a Wigan matchday people in Manchester get on the train to go watch them.  When Leeds play people travel down from York for the game. as above a large part of the Cas crowd aren't from Cas. Do you think when Bulls were pulling 16,000 they all came from Bradford?

Your right to have a problem with the "Big city league" because it's utter garbage Macca was spouting simply to excuse the fact TWP cannot get a paying Television deal which they promised. In short it's somehow not their fault they have no TV deal and NATV companies have no interest in them. But do you think for one minute any NATV company would ever pay £Millions to screen games Americans aren't familiar with with fixtures involving clubs they've never heard of from England? 

The reality is they play RL across the M62 and that throws up investors across the M62, and fans across the M62, and TV audiences across the M62 and beyond. That gets us a TV deal and that's how the game survives. We take advantage of all the advantages the M62 and our traditions give us.

To believe we can take the game out of the M62 and plant it somewhere where Rugby Union is inevitably king is bonkers. It just does not work. And this is the bottom line Toronto Wolfpack do not work, they have run up a £10,000,000 debt to get to Superleague - something a Billionaire Australian NRL fan is happy to  do.

But do you really think anyone else in North America is ever going to do that?? No chance, so when the SKY deal runs out SL will boot them out and we can all get back to Reality Rugby league.......

Edited by The Parksider

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Shooting well above his station. Rl is a small town sport at best. The ambitions of one not very good coach ( he inherited a Leeds team that stretched the cap)  (gone to another team that will do the same) can’t be met without a few old guy standing down and someone with a better idea of leveller playing field looks like coning in

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

So pro clubs would get payment , amateur clubs wouldn't ? 

Do you believe the fans of these pro clubs would continue to follow their clubs knowing they would be losing all their best players ? 

Do fans of lower-tier pro soccer clubs continue to follow their clubs, or do they give up on them?  Their continued existence suggests the former, so what would stop fans of those pro RL clubs continuing to follow their clubs?

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1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

No chance, so when the SKY deal runs out SL will boot them out and we can all get back to Reality Rugby league.......

Reality Rugby League - give it a decade and there'll be no L1 clubs, a handful in Championship and 8 or 10 SL sides scrapping over the diminishing pot that SKY hands out. And this guy cheering about it. Enjoy.

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5 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Do fans of lower-tier pro soccer clubs continue to follow their clubs, or do they give up on them?  Their continued existence suggests the former, so what would stop fans of those pro RL clubs continuing to follow their clubs?

Those clubs aren't supplying a huge percentage of players to their top tier , neither are they denied moving up to that top tier due to location or size ?

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5 hours ago, RobertAM said:

Reality Rugby League - give it a decade and there'll be no L1 clubs, a handful in Championship and 8 or 10 SL sides scrapping over the diminishing pot that SKY hands out. And this guy cheering about it. Enjoy.

Why do you think that will be the case? A number of lower league clubs are thriving and I don’t think any of the current SL teams will be defunct except possibly Toronto (hopefully not). Which ones do you think will have disappeared and why?

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