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Smudger06

Brian McDermott's Big City Team League

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6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Erm the debate is TWP's admission via their coach they have not been able to deliver any players or TV deals and are unlikely to do that. These were the success criteria their founder set the club, plus in failing to do that they ran up a £10,000,000 debt and continue to run that higher as they enter Superleague. Oddly enough their coach excuses this total failure of their  business plan on the other clubs for not being "big city's".

Parksider, I'm going to ask you direct questions, in order to provide the debate you so cherish.

1. Could you please provide your source for this number? I've seen you post it more than once, so you must have one.

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Just admit TWP far from being a massive success are a massive failure, and we can call it a day?? Having a go at me is the usual cheap trick tried literally more than a thousand times. Trying to hound someone out of a debate isn't grown up is it? 

2. Is it "grown up" to repeatedly demand debate, but then ignore me when I've civilly engaged you here, here, and here?

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

1. 123 years on and the model still works, only in the last 23 years the success has risen a level with the game stepping up from semi-pro to Professional. We have done pretty good and continue onwards with a new SKY deal waiting.

2. You have your one opinion, thousands of fans have theirs - as a democrat I'll accept the majority vote. TWP are now pointless by their own admission no players, no TV deals and one of the biggest trading debts ever in the history of the game.

3. I don't see it at all because you woffle on from post to post claiming your a marketing genius, but never actually set out your cunning plan. Please let myself and my business advisor Mr. Gubrats know what it is. We may start our own club in Timbuktu with this plan. 

Just a general wondering here, but why would anyone give that to you for free?

 

I'll leave it at 2 direct questions, since as demonstrated you seem to have problems with replying to more than that, despite clearly no being averse to typing long posts. 

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11 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Parksider, I'm going to ask you direct questions, in order to provide the debate you so cherish.

1. Could you please provide your source for this number? I've seen you post it more than once, so you must have one.

2. Is it "grown up" to repeatedly demand debate, but then ignore me when I've civilly engaged you here, here, and here?

Just a general wondering here, but why would anyone give that to you for free?

 

I'll leave it at 2 direct questions, since as demonstrated you seem to have problems with replying to more than that, despite clearly no being averse to typing long posts. 

I'll answer the first one , 3 years paying out at or as close as matters at SL Salary Cap of 2 million , plus coaching staff , added to costs for training venues and transport within the UK , and then accomodation in Canada , so if it's not 10 , it's 8 or 9 , but what's a couple of million between friends ?

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17 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I'll answer the first one , 3 years paying out at or as close as matters at SL Salary Cap of 2 million , plus coaching staff , added to costs for training venues and transport within the UK , and then accomodation in Canada , so if it's not 10 , it's 8 or 9 , but what's a couple of million between friends ?

Sure, you could get pretty close in expenditures. Now, add ticket income,  concession income, sponsorship, merch, etc.

Without knowing those numbers,  it's all hypothetical, but let's assume the income doesn't cover the expenses so far. We're now at a negative profit, or a loss.

That still isn't debt. Debt implies an obligation to repay. We don't know, and have no proof, of what DA's and his other partners' financial arrangements are, are startup or today.  Perhaps it was $20 million startup fund and they haven't gone through half of it yet. Perhaps (more likely) they provide ongoing cash injections as needed. This happened at least once.

But, unless someone has proof otherwise, there is no indication of debt. EVERY startup requires investment. It's the "rule" , not the "exception" , that almost every business will spend money and be negative while getting established, until profits make up for start up costs. Most investments are made with the acceptance that they could be lost, and not repaid. Unless proof is provided, there is no reason to believe that TWP is different from any other startup, with the owners understanding the risks of their investment.

When the startup in question is a professional sports team, figures in the millions, or even tens of millions, are perfectly normal.

Making a loss as a start-up is not of itself a negative point when considering the merits of TWP.

Edited by TheReaper
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1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

Parksider, I'm going to ask you direct questions

There's your first error.

 

1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

when I've civilly engaged you here, here, and here?

And there's the rest.

Was there something about this post of his in particular that made you think this time would be different?

It's called an interior monologue and Parky is TGG's James Joyce.

Edited by Oxford
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“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”    

 

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7 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Erm the debate is TWP's admission via their coach they have not been able to deliver any players or TV deals and are unlikely to do that. These were the success criteria their founder set the club, plus in failing to do that they ran up a £10,000,000 debt and continue to run that higher as they enter Superleague. Oddly enough their coach excuses this total failure of their  business plan on the other clubs for not being "big city's".

Just admit TWP far from being a massive success are a massive failure, and we can call it a day?? Having a go at me is the usual cheap trick tried literally more than a thousand times. Trying to hound someone out of a debate isn't grown up is it? 

1. 123 years on and the model still works, only in the last 23 years the success has risen a level with the game stepping up from semi-pro to Professional. We have done pretty good and continue onwards with a new SKY deal waiting.

2. You have your one opinion, thousands of fans have theirs - as a democrat I'll accept the majority vote. TWP are now pointless by their own admission no players, no TV deals and one of the biggest trading debts ever in the history of the game.

3. I don't see it at all because you woffle on from post to post claiming your a marketing genius, but never actually set out your cunning plan. Please let myself and my business advisor Mr. Gubrats know what it is. We may start our own club in Timbuktu with this plan. 

School on Monday Parky.  

 

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21 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

School on Monday Parky.  

 

Everyday's a school day


“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”    

 

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1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

Sure, you could get pretty close in expenditures. Now, add ticket income,  concession income, sponsorship, merch, etc.

Without knowing those numbers,  it's all hypothetical, but let's assume the income doesn't cover the expenses so far. We're now at a negative profit, or a loss.

That still isn't debt. Debt implies an obligation to repay. We don't know, and have no proof, of what DA's and his other partners' financial arrangements are, are startup or today.  Perhaps it was $20 million startup fund and they haven't gone through half of it yet. Perhaps (more likely) they provide ongoing cash injections as needed. This happened at least once.

But, unless someone has proof otherwise, there is no indication of debt. EVERY startup requires investment. It's the "rule" , not the "exception" , that almost every business will spend money and be negative while getting established, until profits make up for start up costs. Most investments are made with the acceptance that they could be lost, and not repaid. Unless proof is provided, there is no reason to believe that TWP is different from any other startup, with the owners understanding the risks of their investment.

When the startup in question is a professional sports team, figures in the millions, or even tens of millions, are perfectly normal.

Making a loss as a start-up is not of itself a negative point when considering the merits of TWP.

Look , I haven't included loads of other stuff as well , like paying for TV coverage , and having set up various businesses and been involved at board level at Championship and SL level there are a thousand and other associated costs involved that you nor I have highlighted 

Now don't ever quote something as stupid as ' negative profit ' , it's a LOSS , now wether that is part of an overall ' kitty ' ? Or an on going cash input is completely irrelivant , bottom line is 1 it will be considerable , yes you've pointed out ticket sales , but it has never been hidden that they are cheap and many have been free ( no criticism of that by me ) , merchandise sales ? , Perhaps , but still given the numbers involved and the profits associated ( remember I've been there and done it ) not really significant , don't even go there on beer sales , they might not even go to the club 

So bottom line is , it will have cost David Argyle many millions to run his club for the last 3 years , he can afford it easily , BUT don't anybody pretend it is a financial success , I congratulate him on being willing to pay to have professional RL played in Canada , and hope he can eventually get to the point where it becomes more sustainable with less investment from himself , and hopefully it can have some lasting legacy , now that WOULD be something to cheer about 

I won't comment again on this , you are welcome to have the last word 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Look , I haven't included loads of other stuff as well , like paying for TV coverage , and having set up various businesses and been involved at board level at Championship and SL level there are a thousand and other associated costs involved that you nor I have highlighted 

Now don't ever quote something as stupid as ' negative profit ' , it's a LOSS , now wether that is part of an overall ' kitty ' ? Or an on going cash input is completely irrelivant , bottom line is 1 it will be considerable , yes you've pointed out ticket sales , but it has never been hidden that they are cheap and many have been free ( no criticism of that by me ) , merchandise sales ? , Perhaps , but still given the numbers involved and the profits associated ( remember I've been there and done it ) not really significant , don't even go there on beer sales , they might not even go to the club 

So bottom line is , it will have cost David Argyle many millions to run his club for the last 3 years , he can afford it easily , BUT don't anybody pretend it is a financial success , I congratulate him on being willing to pay to have professional RL played in Canada , and hope he can eventually get to the point where it becomes more sustainable with less investment from himself , and hopefully it can have some lasting legacy , now that WOULD be something to cheer about 

I won't comment again on this , you are welcome to have the last word 

Sure, happy to. I don't disagree with any of that. Like you say, "irrelevant", really about all the numbers. 

My bottom line is that there is no debt, and that there is nothing remarkable about a startup being in the red.

Now, @The Parksider

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2 hours ago, Oxford said:

There's your first error.

 

And there's the rest.

Was there something about this post of his in particular that made you think this time would be different?

It's called an interior monologue and Parky is TGG's James Joyce.

Like I said in other threads, for now calling Parky on his made up "facts" is entertaining to me. I'll eventually get bored or decide it's not worth it.

Edited by TheReaper

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1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

Like I said in other threads, for now calling Parky on his made up "facts" is entertaining to me. I'll eventually get bored or decide it's not worth it.

We've all been there, and we've all got bored or decided it's not worth it!

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1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

Like I said in other threads, for now calling Parky on his made up "facts" is entertaining to me. I'll eventually get bored or decide it's not worth it.

I am only kidding with you and Parky.

He doesn't answer just in case he becomes the butt of the humour which is a forlorn hope cos it happens anyway.

Big Cities will attract more sponsors and more TV opportunities but if anyone thinks that they are a magic answer they're deluded.

Edited by Oxford

“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”    

 

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11 hours ago, TheReaper said:

1. Could you please provide your source for this number? 

Yes, the original source was BBC sports saying TWP budget a £5.87 Million spend a year. A commentator in the RL press suggested as TWP don't get any TV money (and do a lot of free tickets to fans) then at that level of turnover clearly Argyle was having to dig very deep into his own pockets.  

9 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So bottom line is , it will have cost David Argyle many millions to run his club for the last 3 years , he can afford it easily , BUT don't anybody pretend it is a financial success

Big thanks to my financial advisor. Cheque is in the post.

11 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Lets assume the income doesn't cover the expenses so far. That still isn't debt. Making a loss as a start-up is not of itself a negative point when considering the merits of TWP.

The income nowhere near covers expenses, it's £Millions short, that's what is being said, TWP loses about £3 Million a year.

13 hours ago, Damien said:

What level of debt? Argyle putting money into a club does not equate debt.

Hughes has put £20 million+ into London but they are not in that much debt.

Any new business that is looking for strong growth will make a large investment initially and this will mean that it will run at a loss initially, its quite normal.

Hughes has put about a £Million a year into London for 20 years. This is to pay the creditors which London Broncos Ltd. can't fully pay on their income so Hughes put's in an extra £Million making himself a creditor. But he then writes that debt off and the club break even. 

What you miss for TWP is Argyle equally has to put in £Millions himself to pay creditors balance the books then he writes off that debt to his own club off, or lists it as additional Directors investment and everyone is paid and the books balance.

What you also miss Damian was that the losses were to be stood by Argylle and supposedly four more NA club Chairmen/directors at other NA clubs like Montreal, Vancouver, New York and Ottawa whilst enough North American clubs got into Superleague at which point Perez was to sell the Superleague rights to someone like Fox sports for $$$several hundred million. Then as you say they would all go into profit down the line.

But Superleague have said they do not want North American clubs and Superleague won't share any TV deals with them and are intending to take the SKY deal next time. So whilst you in theory are right - New businesses borrow and go into debt, and later on they go into profit if the business plan works, but sadly Superleague have scuppered the TWP business plan and won't give TWP a penny. TWP expected to get a share of the SKY money once in Superleague. They didn't get it. This has killed off TWP's original ambitions, PLUS there is now no point any other NA club entering the game here either as Superleague will not let them in or give them any TV money.

15 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

If you and Grubrats want my advice for your new club, DM me and I'll happily provide my rate card.

It was clear you were a phoney baloney trolling.  No thanks...

Edited by The Parksider
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Well Parky whilse tou're answering stuff ......

But Superleague have said they do not want North American clubs

When did they say this?

Who said it?

Saying Super League said it is a bit questionable so I'd like an answer please.

(strums fingers while acting patient! Hums tune of There was I Waiting at the Church)


“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”    

 

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17 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Like I said in other threads, for now calling Parky on his made up "facts" is entertaining to me. I'll eventually get bored or decide it's not worth it.

mate we've all tried to engage.. he ignores it if he doesn't like what you've said or questions you've asked or the fact you actually have sources and facts... then he says that no one is engaging!!

its frustrating and its cyclical... he'll say we insult him but we don't we just tell the truth... he doesn't engage if he doesn't like the argument, he then makes facts up to counter actual facts that don't work for him and he provides no substance to any of his claims (nor does he realise that time moves on and things change so quotes from 5 years ago are rendered meaningless by changing circumstances).. he is Donald Trump and i claim my £5!

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18 hours ago, The Parksider said:

 

Big thanks to my financial advisor. Cheque is in the post.

 

Make sure you sign it this time 

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On 21/10/2019 at 06:35, Oxford said:

Superleague have said they do not want North American clubs   When did they say this? Who said it?

Big Cities will attract more sponsors and more TV opportunities but if anyone thinks that they are a magic answer they're deluded.

The reason your incapable of debate is you don't listen, you just troll and insult me. Full quotes of the Superleague position, from the press release McManus gave on behalf of SL some weeks back were clear Superleague were favouring Toulouse for entry to Superleague because SL argued two French clubs could further stimulate player growth and find a better TV deal than the small one they had.

I guess you were too busy playing to the other trolls for like this Emojis, to be capable of taking in what Superleague thought of TWP which was an Australians club, with English and Australian players, based in England wearing "Canadian jerseys". Had Les Catalans set themselves up in 2006 with a Manchester based English/Australian side and flew out every other week to Perpignan the so called "expansionists" on here would have been furious.

Whilst trolling me you will also have missed the fact that SL were forced to accept TWP because they had agreed with the RFL as part of their separation agreement, to keep the current P&R system for now in it's current form - winners go up. Anyone who thinks English SL clubs want their English SL partners to be replaced by fake clubs must really give us some sort of idea and insight into this delusion why?

And NO big cities will not attract big sponsors and TV opportunities We have clubs in big cities, we have HAD clubs in big cities, if there is no interest in RL these things don't happen. Toulouse is big enough but clearly no such opportunities appear to have come their way with Soccer and RU ruling the roost. You make two points to me, in the first instance you appear to be oblivious to the actual events of the TWP saga, in the second you appear to be oblivious to the track record of RL in "big cities" throughout it's history.

No more trolling please it's utterly childish, cut the cheap shots it's cowardice, look something up for once, and rest assured I won't hear it as your the one and only person I have on ignore, and your going back there.

21 hours ago, RP London said:

mate we've all tried to engage.. he ignores it if he doesn't like what you've said or questions you've asked or the fact you actually have sources and facts... then he says that no one is engaging!!

its frustrating and its cyclical... he'll say we insult him but we don't we just tell the truth... he doesn't engage if he doesn't like the argument, he then makes facts up to counter actual facts that don't work for him and he provides no substance to any of his claims (nor does he realise that time moves on and things change so quotes from 5 years ago are rendered meaningless by changing circumstances).. he is Donald Trump and i claim my £5!

Here we go again. For anyone with an open mind reading this five years is the timescale for a standard short term business plan  Therefore of course things don't change, what happens is businesses review and then re-consider around the five year mark, if shortage of funds have not already scuppered the plan and closed the business down

So the standard five year review based on the business plan of:-

a. Develop players through grid iron converts pretty quickly (Perez's words)

b. Seek a paying TV deal from NATV

Reveals that (a) no players have come from grid iron and that player development plan is dead because there is no junior (and no real senior) game in Canada and (b) No paying TV deal has been obtained.

The business plan has failed. In terms of the financials two devastating blows, the books reveal an estimated £10 million debt running the club and the hoped for £2M share of the SKY TV deal they expected has been withheld and they get nothing.

Now for those few who aren't interested in any debate or facts, and want to make stuff up just take another look at the five year business review. Tell me this RPLondon - who on earth in North America is ever going to invest in a game that doesn't want them, and doesn't want to share any money with them? I will tell you.....

This week Ricky Wilby appeared in the RL press with a couple of guests bigging up New York and bragging about their entry to the game here with a view to Superleague. Of course he was erm "kind" enough to give the RL press the nod and pose for pictures and give HIS quotes (no awkward questions allowed)  But I guess he wasn't kind enough to be open to questions about how, if New York enter the game here, he will find people with £10,000,000 to lose, just to get to year three of their business plan, and if they get there who is going to annually fund the £3 Million plus (SL has bigger costs) deficit to keep them in Superleague??

Edited by The Parksider
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48 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Here we go again. For anyone with an open mind reading this five years is the timescale for a standard short term business plan  Therefore of course things don't change, what happens is businesses review and then re-consider around the five year mark, if shortage of funds have not already scuppered the plan and closed the business down

like everything you post that is utter tripe.. I own a business, have done for the past 12 years. The business has been around for 150 years.. you re-evaluate your "plan" every 6 months to 1 year. Your 5 year plan is the aim of where you should be, how you get there changes and you abandon things along the way, with the ability to resurrect them when the time and circumstances are better suited. You also re-evaluate when there is a change in management etc so YES  within a 5 year plan things constantly change.. 

If you dont do this then the business WILL fail you have to alter and change and constantly adapt. 

 

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Don't know how pertinent this is to the TWP debate, but SKY have flashed up the fact that Sacramento have been awarded an expansion place for MLS, 2022, the 29th team. Before the WC in 1994 soccer in NA was dead, no.professional league, zilch nada, but from little acorns growth happened. This is how to create a professional league and interest from nothing. A lot of time, careful planning, creating teams in cities devoid of top league action, creating local rivalries. Of course it takes money from the World body to push it along, but I doubt if anyone had the idea of implanting a team in another country's league, and they could easily have done, in Mexico for instance, but that wouldn't create interest in NA generally.

If the point of TWP is an ego trip for Argyle, fine, good luck to him, and it will benefit SL with the uniqueness of it, extra media attention etc. maybe better viewing numbers, but as for growing the game Stateside it will do diddly squat.

Edited by HawkMan

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7 hours ago, The Parksider said:

The business plan has failed. In terms of the financials two devastating blows, the books reveal an estimated £10 million debt running the club and the hoped for £2M share of the SKY TV deal they expected has been withheld and they get nothing.

Now for those few who aren't interested in any debate or facts, and want to make stuff up

How handy of you to mention making up facts right after mentioning that figure of "debt" again. Care to back that up with a link, or are you making stuff up? 

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4 hours ago, HawkMan said:

Don't know how pertinent this is to the TWP debate, but SKY have flashed up the fact that Sacramento have been awarded an expansion place for MLS, 2022, the 29th team. Before the WC in 1994 soccer in NA was dead, no.professional league, zilch nada, but from little acorns growth happened. This is how to create a professional league and interest from nothing. A lot of time, careful planning, creating teams in cities devoid of top league action, creating local rivalries. Of course it takes money from the World body to push it along, but I doubt if anyone had the idea of implanting a team in another country's league, and they could easily have done, in Mexico for instance, but that wouldn't create interest in NA generally.

While you have a point that MLS is a successful launch of a new top flight league, and there are lessons in that, MLS also provides a counter-example. Canada was unable to sustain pro-soccer after several tries, and only once we started putting teams in the MLS did professional soccer break into the mainstream.  We're now giving our own league a try again,  with the CPL, but without TFC and the others legitimizing the pro soccer concept here that probably wouldn't be happening. 

Not to mention that MLS wasn't starting from zero like rugby league is. Soccer has been played in North America since the 1800's, and had several pro leagues that lasted various lengths of time, just none managed to become sustainable. 

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TheReaper is correct to state soccer wasn’t “starting from zero”...there wasn’t “creating interest from nothing”. The US team played at the ‘90 World Cup (not some heritage outfit, bona fide US players from their collegiate system) and also produced US players that played at the beginning of the Premier League (John Harkes at Sheffield Wednesday, Roy Wegerle at QPR); with participation they had a foundation, the ‘94 World Cup in the US allowed that to come into fruition. 

In contrast RL is starting from pretty much zero. The playing numbers in a country of over 330 million must be extremely minute. 

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Just curious Reaper, but do you have any idea how much TV money MLS teams get or is it still very much a gate-driven league?

Good luck getting any sort of coherent replies from Parky BTW.

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3 hours ago, TheReaper said:

How handy of you to mention making up facts right after mentioning that figure of "debt" again. Care to back that up with a link, or are you making stuff up? 

I'd be interested in your opinion of what Toronto's ' deficit ' is ?

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5 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

I'd be interested in your opinion of what Toronto's ' deficit ' is ?

I think you mean 'surplus'.  Toronto could very well be running a surplus....the word one billion Aussie dollars keeps coming up.

Whats a few million between friends?

Edited by Kayakman

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On 21/10/2019 at 01:35, Oxford said:

Well Parky whilse tou're answering stuff ......

But Superleague have said they do not want North American clubs

When did they say this?

Who said it?

Saying Super League said it is a bit questionable so I'd like an answer please.

(strums fingers while acting patient! Hums tune of There was I Waiting at the Church)

In fairness to Parksider, Elstone did say a few months ago that they saw 3 as the limit for non-British teams.

9 hours ago, HawkMan said:

Don't know how pertinent this is to the TWP debate, but SKY have flashed up the fact that Sacramento have been awarded an expansion place for MLS, 2022, the 29th team. Before the WC in 1994 soccer in NA was dead, no.professional league, zilch nada, but from little acorns growth happened. This is how to create a professional league and interest from nothing. A lot of time, careful planning, creating teams in cities devoid of top league action, creating local rivalries. Of course it takes money from the World body to push it along, but I doubt if anyone had the idea of implanting a team in another country's league, and they could easily have done, in Mexico for instance, but that wouldn't create interest in NA generally.

If the point of TWP is an ego trip for Argyle, fine, good luck to him, and it will benefit SL with the uniqueness of it, extra media attention etc. maybe better viewing numbers, but as for growing the game Stateside it will do diddly squat.

This comes shortly the 28th franchise was purchased by a group in St Louis for 200 million US$, 20 times what Toronto FC paid for their franchise 12 years ago.  The franchised North American model for big time sports truly is a money-maker for investors.

Edited by Big Picture

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