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Brian McDermott's Big City Team League

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On ‎07‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 11:14, League of XIII said:

Brian would approve of the big city expansion league I suggested in the topic below 🤓

 

https://www.totalrl.com/forums/index.php?/topic/343985-how-about-a-nh-expansion-league-separate-to-super-league/

Interesting but if you were really thinking/dreaming big time you'd want Super League Europe to establish a franchised ‘American Rugby League’ with the aid of private equity/Argyle types/TV for Toronto, New York, Ottawa et al and incentivise some Major League Rugby clubs to switch codes. You could then have an 'Atlantic League' played during the season, Champions League style. TV gold! 

No point in New York v Coventry etc.  

Vanishly unlikely the above will happen, of course, but if this trans-Atlantic lark is going to work then it needs to be of mutual benefit. After all, where are they going to get the players?!

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3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Interesting but if you were really thinking/dreaming big time you'd want Super League Europe to establish a franchised ‘American Rugby League’ with the aid of private equity/Argyle types/TV for Toronto, New York, Ottawa et al and incentivise some Major League Rugby clubs to switch codes. You could then have an 'Atlantic League' played during the season, Champions League style. TV gold! 

No point in New York v Coventry etc.  

Vanishly unlikely the above will happen, of course, but if this trans-Atlantic lark is going to work then it needs to be of mutual benefit. After all, where are they going to get the players?!

You wouldn't waste time with any clubs in Minor League Rugby (to call that circuit what it really is).  They're all too small time to be included.

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2 hours ago, HawkMan said:

The Premier League isn't " based" around anything geographical in an artificial sense. It all depends on who gets promotion and who goes down. The big teams in big cities obviously are more successful as they generate most cash to spend on top players.

Man U have previously gone down and hopefully Ole will repeat the feat, with no one at EPL HQ being worried or trying to get rid of P +R.

The premier leagues success is absolutely based around big clubs in big cities. They have achieved that through largely unlimited spending. It's a natural gravitation 

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30 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Interesting but if you were really thinking/dreaming big time you'd want Super League Europe to establish a franchised ‘American Rugby League’ with the aid of private equity/Argyle types/TV for Toronto, New York, Ottawa et al and incentivise some Major League Rugby clubs to switch codes. You could then have an 'Atlantic League' played during the season, Champions League style. TV gold! 

No point in New York v Coventry etc.  

Vanishly unlikely the above will happen, of course, but if this trans-Atlantic lark is going to work then it needs to be of mutual benefit. After all, where are they going to get the players?!

It's a good idea and I like it

I wouldnt say it won't happen, but I'd say it won't happen in the next 20 years, not at all until we garner more interest in the sport internationally

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1 minute ago, TboneFromTO said:

It's a good idea and I like it

I wouldnt say it won't happen, but I'd say it won't happen in the next 20 years, not at all until we garner more interest in the sport internationally

Indeed.

New leagues have many moving parts and hope to conjure up a major competition from nothing. There is very little past record of such a thing working. The nearest thing there is where a sport is already big and a league in that sport was introduced. That is not comparable.

There is far more history of new clubs successfullly joining existing leagues.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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32 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The premier leagues success is absolutely based around big clubs in big cities. They have achieved that through largely unlimited spending. It's a natural gravitation 

Which they can get away with as if the ten biggest teams left, or even the twenty biggest, they would still be left with teams anough to create one of the biggest leagues in Europe.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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2 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

What is the equivalence between the Premier League and Rugby League? or the Premier League and any other sport/league?

Are you saying that the Premier League came about because of a conscious, planned decision to build a sport around "big clubs in big conurbations"?  

If you are defining things by "conurbations" then Featherstone is part of the West Yorkshire built up area, this places it above Leicester, Liverpool, Middlesbrorough, Newcastle, Southampton, Stoke, Sheffield and Norwich from your list.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom

I assume if Featherstone Flyers football team could rise through the ranks and hit the Premier League you would then class them as a "big club in a big conurbation"? Why is it different for RL?

It isnt different for RL. It's different for fev. They arent and never have been a big club, they have no plan to be a big club. There fans will argue vociferously that it is impossible for them to attract fans from all over that conurbation.

The reason Fev arent a big club in a big conurbation isnt because we are treating the west Yorkshire conurbation differently. It's for the simple reason fev arent a big club.

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3 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

The Premier League is based around teams who kick the ball between the goalposts. 

Of course it is that's why the Scottish premier league has seen the exponential growth the premier league has. Its just kicking a ball between goal posts, that's why the SPL value stayed the same when a team from Dingwall replaced team Glasgow

 

Oh...

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10 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Of course it is that's why the Scottish premier league has seen the exponential growth the premier league has. Its just kicking a ball between goal posts, that's why the SPL value stayed the same when a team from Dingwall replaced team Glasgow

 

Oh...

I think it is great that he remembers the amateur game and does not bother with the professional game. Good for him.

Obviously, his argument does not apply to the professional game, and I think you should apologise for suggesting he would write something that stupid.

Edited by Bob8
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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

Indeed.

New leagues have many moving parts and hope to conjure up a major competition from nothing. There is very little past record of such a thing working. The nearest thing there is where a sport is already big and a league in that sport was introduced. That is not comparable.

There is far more history of new clubs successfullly joining existing leagues.

On the contrary I can name four examples of such a thing working.  The AFL, ABA and WHL all successfully pressured bigger, established competitors into mergers and MLS became a successful major pro league which just admitted a new franchise in St Louis for a fee of 200 million US$.  A new transatlantic RL equivalent of Super Rugby and Pro 14 based on the established model and practices of major North American pro leagues could certainly work, but its franchises would have to be located in well known globally recognized cities in enough countries to enable it to bring in serious money from TV rights despite the fact that as a startup operation it can't expect any single broadcaster to pay more than a fraction of what they pay for their current sports properties.

Edited by Big Picture

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1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Of course it is that's why the Scottish premier league has seen the exponential growth the premier league has. Its just kicking a ball between goal posts, that's why the SPL value stayed the same when a team from Dingwall replaced team Glasgow

 

Oh...

Glasgow AND Edinburgh are bigger cities than many a Premier League club, the size of the league has nothing to do with the cities/towns in which its participants play in. Newcastle getting relegated and say Huddersfield getting promoted doesn’t dramatically reduce TV deals, sponsorship etc. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

On the contrary I can name four examples of such a thing working.  The AFL, ABA and WHL all successfully pressured bigger, established competitors into mergers and MLS became a successful major pro league which just admitted a new franchise in St Louis for a fee of 200 million US$.  A new transatlantic RL equivalent of Super Rugby and Pro 14 based on the established model and practices of major North American pro leagues could certainly work, but its franchises would have to be located in well known globally recognized cities in enough countries to enable it to bring in serious money from TV rights despite the fact that as a startup operation it can't expect any single broadcaster to pay more than a fraction of what they pay for their current sports properties.

You’re examples of introducing complete sports leagues for sports that were not already big in that area is basketball to North America and ice hockey to Canada? And the original birth of the oldest codified football in existence? Soccer to the USA was exactly the example of a league already having a basis  

What am I meant to write to that and not be insulting? Help me here!


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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5 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Glasgow AND Edinburgh are bigger cities than many a Premier League club, the size of the league has nothing to do with the cities/towns in which its participants play in. Newcastle getting relegated and say Huddersfield getting promoted doesn’t dramatically reduce TV deals, sponsorship etc. 

Because the PL has many big clubs in many big cities. 

Replace your liverpool clubs manchester clubs, London clubs, Newcastle, etc with your Burtons or torquays and see the value of the premier league fall through the floor.

Scotland has two big clubs They lost one the value went down.

Frankly its ridiculous to pretend there isnt a) a correlation between the size of the clubs in a league and the value of that league and B) there isnt a correlation between the size of the urban area in which a club is based and its size.

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4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 

Frankly its ridiculous to pretend B) there isnt a correlation between the size of the urban area in which a club is based and its size.

There certainly isn't for Coventry Bears, London Broncos , London Skolars , Newcastle Thunder, Sheffield Eagles and Toulouse.

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2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Of course it is that's why the Scottish premier league has seen the exponential growth the premier league has. Its just kicking a ball between goal posts, that's why the SPL value stayed the same when a team from Dingwall replaced team Glasgow

 

Oh...

It's great that you mention Ross County. The ground has a bigger capacity than the town of Dingwall but of course the target area is the whole of Ross and Cromarty hence the name. 

It was Dundee they replaced this year. Dunfermline in their first promotion 2012. They've never replaced Rangers. 

I'd argue the other way in that Ross County are similar to Toronto as they stop a central belt having all the teams. 

 

Edited by Niels
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11 hours ago, Eddie said:

Actually you’d be surprised how homogeneous they are, much more so than anywhere else I’ve been. It’s the most parochial city in England by far. I have admitted you might find a few new people to be interested but they would be so few it wouldn’t be worth the massive outlay to do it. 

If anyone who posts on here and is from that area or the wider North West disagrees then maybe I’m wrong, but I doubt it  

 

I’m not from there, but I was at University there, and I’d concur with every word you have said. A rugby ball (either code) and Liverpool is akin to an ice hockey puck and Jamaica.

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Just now, DC77 said:

I’m not from there, but I was at University there, and I’d concur with every word you have said. A rugby ball (either code) and Liverpool is akin to an ice hockey puck and Jamaica.

Or a bobsleigh 😉 

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11 hours ago, HawkMan said:

Absolutely, that's what I thought, but apparently Speedway gets bigger crowds and aren't Poland past world champs ?

Getting bigger domestic crowds (if that is the case) is not the sole barometer to the size of a sport.

People outside Ireland maybe see Irish domestic soccer getting crowds of 5k and think, “it’s not that big there” (by some distance it’s the biggest sport on the island). You will see more jerseys of football teams (especially Premier League clubs (and in the north, Celtic/Rangers)) than any other, by a long way. The sport being global means other teams (and leagues) get a large following internationally, especially the top level ones. I’ve never been to an Irish league game in my life, but I have been to at least 30 club games abroad. Participation wise there isn’t a school playground where it isn’t played either.

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10 hours ago, RP London said:

To be honest.. i know this isnt an NFL topic but... I can see the NFL long term plan being having a European division of some sort.. Get a London franchise, maybe then look at Germany and 2 other places.. basically what NFL Europe was but as full scale NFL rather than an off season "reserve league"... your looking way down the line (20 years) and not sure how it would fit into the current 8 divisions in 2 conferences but I can see it being what they want.. but you start with a few games in London.. building from 1 to 4 see how the crowds build and sustain over the years. Then look at a Franchise coming over full time. Look then at the demographic of travelling fans, are there people flying in from europe for the matches.. maybe replace the "london games" they have now with a game in say Munich or Berlin and start building again.. slowly slowly.. 

We can do the same with the likes of Toronto, then another maybe down the line and it starts to fit into a different structure.

They already did, NFL Europe, and it folded due financial losses (low crowds).

There isn’t the fanbase (never mind the participation) to sustain a league outside North America. Those that do follow it want to see the best (and it’s predominantly only Americans that play it) so you won’t be seeing more than one/two “franchises” at most, and they will be in the actual NFL. 

 

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1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Because the PL has many big clubs in many big cities. 

Replace your liverpool clubs manchester clubs, London clubs, Newcastle, etc with your Burtons or torquays and see the value of the premier league fall through the floor.

Scotland has two big clubs They lost one the value went down.

Frankly its ridiculous to pretend there isnt a) a correlation between the size of the clubs in a league and the value of that league and B) there isnt a correlation between the size of the urban area in which a club is based and its size.

The issue is not the size of the city, but the size of the club and its market.

Of course, Manchester will be a bigger market than Yeovil, but there are many markets within Manchester and Yeovil. Sale and Salford are reaching different markets and that is not because they have different place names in the city. You can separate by outlook (international vs parochial, social aspiration, mainstream vs alternative). To find anothe rmarket as large as Wakefield, rugby league will have to look for a niche within a fairly open market. Realistically, that is going to have to be in a large market or very affluent market to make it viable.

Manchester and London are some of the most competitive sports markets in the world. There are plenty that are far less competitive.

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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9 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

And yet the all time premeir league table is teams from Manchester, London, london, liverpool, london. Liverpool. Manchester, newcastle, Birmingham, london, Manchester, Southampton, leeds, middlesborough, Leicester  Sunderland, london, manchester, birmingham, stoke london, sheffield,.london, Norwich

Anyone pretending the premeir league isnt based around big clubs in big conurbations just isnt being truthful

Also some of those cities you mention are like 20-30times bigger than the likes of fev and more importantly so are the clubs. 

Not saying there isn't, but nevertheless there's also room for those I quoted.  Plus of course Leicester who won it in 2016.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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10 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think saying exclusively big cities/big teams is unreasonable. But it can't be too heavily weighted the other way. 

The premier League wouldn't be what it is if it was all Bournemouth/Burnley/Middlesbrough with no Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal.

Leeds is (by some measures anyway) the third largest city in the UK.  They haven't been in the Premiership for 15 years. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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10 hours ago, RP London said:

5th largest city in England by population

3rd largest "city district" in England by population (I assume thats like metropolitan district.. so mayor "city region" or something).. 

in short yes.. its a big city!

But not a "big club"


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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2 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Leeds is (by some measures anyway) the third largest city in the UK.  They haven't been in the Premiership for 15 years. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!

Well that is ridiculous. 

However if the majority of Leeds, Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton and a few others weren't in the top flight there would be a damage done in terms of TV rights. Thats also why the none elite clubs are rightly worried about and are totally against a European super league with teams moving "upwards" this time.

As someone pointed out previously the same is even more true of Serie A with Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Napoli etc supporting the investment in the league so teams like Pescara, Benevento, Parma and Atalanta can also be at the top table.

Our top table in RL is far too small atm and needs more "big teams" with big followings to come in. 6 (and a half if you include KR) clubs at the top with Bradford lingering outside just isn't enough.

One of the many beauties of RL was on display on Saturday evening. Firstly that Fev and Toronto would even be a fixture, second that there was a decent chance that Fev could win! We shouldn't ever try to lose that, but we should also be aware that our game needs to grow in relevance to larger numbers of people and they are in cities. 

 

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To expand successfully isn’t easy.

Even a very rich league like the NFL are moving at a measured pace gradually when it comes to expanding into Europe.

I believe there’s lessons to be learned about how they are testing the water in London in a piecemeal way.

Patience, a methodical approach and a coherent strategy is required.

 

 

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