Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Smudger06

Brian McDermott's Big City Team League

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

On the contrary I can name four examples of such a thing working.  The AFL, ABA and WHL all successfully pressured bigger, established competitors into mergers and MLS became a successful major pro league which just admitted a new franchise in St Louis for a fee of 200 million US$.  A new transatlantic RL equivalent of Super Rugby and Pro 14 based on the established model and practices of major North American pro leagues could certainly work, but its franchises would have to be located in well known globally recognized cities in enough countries to enable it to bring in serious money from TV rights despite the fact that as a startup operation it can't expect any single broadcaster to pay more than a fraction of what they pay for their current sports properties.

You’re examples of introducing complete sports leagues for sports that were not already big in that area is basketball to North America and ice hockey to Canada? And the original birth of the oldest codified football in existence? Soccer to the USA was exactly the example of a league already having a basis  

What am I meant to write to that and not be insulting? Help me here!


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 

Frankly its ridiculous to pretend B) there isnt a correlation between the size of the urban area in which a club is based and its size.

There certainly isn't for Coventry Bears, London Broncos , London Skolars , Newcastle Thunder, Sheffield Eagles and Toulouse.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Of course it is that's why the Scottish premier league has seen the exponential growth the premier league has. Its just kicking a ball between goal posts, that's why the SPL value stayed the same when a team from Dingwall replaced team Glasgow

 

Oh...

It's great that you mention Ross County. The ground has a bigger capacity than the town of Dingwall but of course the target area is the whole of Ross and Cromarty hence the name. 

It was Dundee they replaced this year. Dunfermline in their first promotion 2012. They've never replaced Rangers. 

I'd argue the other way in that Ross County are similar to Toronto as they stop a central belt having all the teams. 

 

Edited by Niels
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Eddie said:

Actually you’d be surprised how homogeneous they are, much more so than anywhere else I’ve been. It’s the most parochial city in England by far. I have admitted you might find a few new people to be interested but they would be so few it wouldn’t be worth the massive outlay to do it. 

If anyone who posts on here and is from that area or the wider North West disagrees then maybe I’m wrong, but I doubt it  

 

I’m not from there, but I was at University there, and I’d concur with every word you have said. A rugby ball (either code) and Liverpool is akin to an ice hockey puck and Jamaica.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, DC77 said:

I’m not from there, but I was at University there, and I’d concur with every word you have said. A rugby ball (either code) and Liverpool is akin to an ice hockey puck and Jamaica.

Or a bobsleigh ? 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, HawkMan said:

Absolutely, that's what I thought, but apparently Speedway gets bigger crowds and aren't Poland past world champs ?

Getting bigger domestic crowds (if that is the case) is not the sole barometer to the size of a sport.

People outside Ireland maybe see Irish domestic soccer getting crowds of 5k and think, “it’s not that big there” (by some distance it’s the biggest sport on the island). You will see more jerseys of football teams (especially Premier League clubs (and in the north, Celtic/Rangers)) than any other, by a long way. The sport being global means other teams (and leagues) get a large following internationally, especially the top level ones. I’ve never been to an Irish league game in my life, but I have been to at least 30 club games abroad. Participation wise there isn’t a school playground where it isn’t played either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, RP London said:

To be honest.. i know this isnt an NFL topic but... I can see the NFL long term plan being having a European division of some sort.. Get a London franchise, maybe then look at Germany and 2 other places.. basically what NFL Europe was but as full scale NFL rather than an off season "reserve league"... your looking way down the line (20 years) and not sure how it would fit into the current 8 divisions in 2 conferences but I can see it being what they want.. but you start with a few games in London.. building from 1 to 4 see how the crowds build and sustain over the years. Then look at a Franchise coming over full time. Look then at the demographic of travelling fans, are there people flying in from europe for the matches.. maybe replace the "london games" they have now with a game in say Munich or Berlin and start building again.. slowly slowly.. 

We can do the same with the likes of Toronto, then another maybe down the line and it starts to fit into a different structure.

They already did, NFL Europe, and it folded due financial losses (low crowds).

There isn’t the fanbase (never mind the participation) to sustain a league outside North America. Those that do follow it want to see the best (and it’s predominantly only Americans that play it) so you won’t be seeing more than one/two “franchises” at most, and they will be in the actual NFL. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Because the PL has many big clubs in many big cities. 

Replace your liverpool clubs manchester clubs, London clubs, Newcastle, etc with your Burtons or torquays and see the value of the premier league fall through the floor.

Scotland has two big clubs They lost one the value went down.

Frankly its ridiculous to pretend there isnt a) a correlation between the size of the clubs in a league and the value of that league and B) there isnt a correlation between the size of the urban area in which a club is based and its size.

The issue is not the size of the city, but the size of the club and its market.

Of course, Manchester will be a bigger market than Yeovil, but there are many markets within Manchester and Yeovil. Sale and Salford are reaching different markets and that is not because they have different place names in the city. You can separate by outlook (international vs parochial, social aspiration, mainstream vs alternative). To find anothe rmarket as large as Wakefield, rugby league will have to look for a niche within a fairly open market. Realistically, that is going to have to be in a large market or very affluent market to make it viable.

Manchester and London are some of the most competitive sports markets in the world. There are plenty that are far less competitive.

  • Like 2

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

And yet the all time premeir league table is teams from Manchester, London, london, liverpool, london. Liverpool. Manchester, newcastle, Birmingham, london, Manchester, Southampton, leeds, middlesborough, Leicester  Sunderland, london, manchester, birmingham, stoke london, sheffield,.london, Norwich

Anyone pretending the premeir league isnt based around big clubs in big conurbations just isnt being truthful

Also some of those cities you mention are like 20-30times bigger than the likes of fev and more importantly so are the clubs. 

Not saying there isn't, but nevertheless there's also room for those I quoted.  Plus of course Leicester who won it in 2016.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think saying exclusively big cities/big teams is unreasonable. But it can't be too heavily weighted the other way. 

The premier League wouldn't be what it is if it was all Bournemouth/Burnley/Middlesbrough with no Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal.

Leeds is (by some measures anyway) the third largest city in the UK.  They haven't been in the Premiership for 15 years. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, RP London said:

5th largest city in England by population

3rd largest "city district" in England by population (I assume thats like metropolitan district.. so mayor "city region" or something).. 

in short yes.. its a big city!

But not a "big club"


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Leeds is (by some measures anyway) the third largest city in the UK.  They haven't been in the Premiership for 15 years. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!

Well that is ridiculous. 

However if the majority of Leeds, Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton and a few others weren't in the top flight there would be a damage done in terms of TV rights. Thats also why the none elite clubs are rightly worried about and are totally against a European super league with teams moving "upwards" this time.

As someone pointed out previously the same is even more true of Serie A with Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Napoli etc supporting the investment in the league so teams like Pescara, Benevento, Parma and Atalanta can also be at the top table.

Our top table in RL is far too small atm and needs more "big teams" with big followings to come in. 6 (and a half if you include KR) clubs at the top with Bradford lingering outside just isn't enough.

One of the many beauties of RL was on display on Saturday evening. Firstly that Fev and Toronto would even be a fixture, second that there was a decent chance that Fev could win! We shouldn't ever try to lose that, but we should also be aware that our game needs to grow in relevance to larger numbers of people and they are in cities. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To expand successfully isn’t easy.

Even a very rich league like the NFL are moving at a measured pace gradually when it comes to expanding into Europe.

I believe there’s lessons to be learned about how they are testing the water in London in a piecemeal way.

Patience, a methodical approach and a coherent strategy is required.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

To expand successfully isn’t easy.

Even a very rich league like the NFL are moving at a measured pace gradually when it comes to expanding into Europe.

I believe there’s lessons to be learned about how they are testing the water in London in a piecemeal way.

Patience, a methodical approach and a coherent strategy is required.

 

 

And a shedload of money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 06/10/2019 at 18:56, Man of Kent said:

He’s suggesting Toronto can’t attract major investment because they play “small towns in the north of England”.

Sounded like he’s been talking to Jon Wilkin, who reckons himself to be something of an intellectual but is actually a half-wit who hasn’t thought it through.

Another howler from Man who Kant.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

To be fair they’ve generated a big following in the UK since the 1980s through using their brains rather just financial muscle.

 

It’s a good game (especially in highlight form) and also has glitz and glamour that we don’t have in sport over here, try as the Premier League might. That’s why it’s popular in the UK, I don’t think the NFL have thrown much money at this country at all since the Monarchs (which was decades ago). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Well that is ridiculous. 

However if the majority of Leeds, Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton and a few others weren't in the top flight there would be a damage done in terms of TV rights. Thats also why the none elite clubs are rightly worried about and are totally against a European super league with teams moving "upwards" this time.

As someone pointed out previously the same is even more true of Serie A with Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Napoli etc supporting the investment in the league so teams like Pescara, Benevento, Parma and Atalanta can also be at the top table.

Our top table in RL is far too small atm and needs more "big teams" with big followings to come in. 6 (and a half if you include KR) clubs at the top with Bradford lingering outside just isn't enough.

One of the many beauties of RL was on display on Saturday evening. Firstly that Fev and Toronto would even be a fixture, second that there was a decent chance that Fev could win! We shouldn't ever try to lose that, but we should also be aware that our game needs to grow in relevance to larger numbers of people and they are in cities. 

 

Perhaps you could let the RFL know about this.  They seem to have spent the last 25 years trying to eliminate Fev (and Leigh)  After all Widnes is not exactly a metropolis, but they were fast tracked into SL not that long ago. 

Edited by Trojan
  • Sad 1

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DC77 said:

They already did, NFL Europe, and it folded due financial losses (low crowds).

There isn’t the fanbase (never mind the participation) to sustain a league outside North America. Those that do follow it want to see the best (and it’s predominantly only Americans that play it) so you won’t be seeing more than one/two “franchises” at most, and they will be in the actual NFL. 

 

I did mention  nfl Europe... it was an off season reserve league.. 20 years ago.. to out full franchises in could be different.. top league etc.. you can see the difference now this weekend and last in lindom compared to the small time monarchs. 

I'm not talking tomorrow but 20 years down the line ( as I said in the post).. 

Equally it may not work but plans dont always work out..  just a speculative possibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Trojan said:

But not a "big club"

No you're dead right... sheffield Wednesday are the big club in this city.. 

Btw you just changed the goal posts.. it wasnt about the size of the club but the city/town.. size of club is different.. 

Edited by RP London

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And who are the top sides in the rival handling code?  Leicester, Northampton,  Wasps (Coventry) Bath Exeter, Gloucester Bath, Worcester.  None of them particularly large towns, and yet the media lavishes money on showing their games. 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bob8 said:

You’re examples of introducing complete sports leagues for sports that were not already big in that area is basketball to North America and ice hockey to Canada? And the original birth of the oldest codified football in existence? Soccer to the USA was exactly the example of a league already having a basis  

What am I meant to write to that and not be insulting? Help me here!

The leagues which I mentioned might have been in sports which were already well known here, but their success was far from guaranteed.  Plenty of other startup leagues have flopped and gone belly up, among them the USFL, NASL, XFL and AAF.  The last of those didn't even complete its first season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, RP London said:

No you're dead right... sheffield Wednesday are the big club in this city.. 

Btw you just changed the goal posts.. it wasnt about the size of the club but the city/town.. size of club is different.. 

And that's the problem there.  Two clubs so there's never going to be a dominant one.  I'm 73 the last time I remember Sheffield Wednesday being near winning anything was in 1966!

We have our big city clubs.  Hull, they get good crowds, but never fulfil their potential.  Bradford, a very large city, didn't do the Bulls much good.  Sheffield, they even won the CC, but their ground is and their home support is pathetic, their away support is not as good as that. London, been there 40 years and achieved what?  The only big city club in the RFL is Leeds.  On McDermott's theory they should win everything every season.  They don't.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Perhaps you could let the RFL know about this.  They seem to have spent the last 25 years trying to eliminate Fev (and Leigh)  After all Widnes is not exactly a metropolis, but they were fast tracked into SL not that long ago. 

I don't think licensing was right at all - mainly because there weren't enough clubs deserving of one. I don't think there has been an active campaign against either team though. Indeed it was Leigh, not Toronto, who got the Salary cap changed for the Championship so that they could spend as much as SL. And in any case the team that lost out most from lack of p/r was arguably Sheffield!

 

18 minutes ago, Trojan said:

And who are the top sides in the rival handling code?  Leicester, Northampton,  Wasps (Coventry) Bath Exeter, Gloucester Bath, Worcester.  None of them particularly large towns, and yet the media lavishes money on showing their games. 

Thats false though, the media don't. They're on the second biggest subscription sports broadcaster for starters (the Pro14 is on premier too). T'other codes lavishing of interest is almost exclusively on its international game. 

You also, some could say tactically, miss out the not quite so inconsiderable two topflight London teams, Bristol, Cardiff, Dublin, Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester (claiming the entire north west) on top of the strong regionally supported sides you mention i.e. Leicester, Bath, Gloucester, Exeter etc.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Trojan said:

And who are the top sides in the rival handling code?  Leicester, Northampton,  Wasps (Coventry) Bath Exeter, Gloucester Bath, Worcester.  None of them particularly large towns, and yet the media lavishes money on showing their games. 

True, that. They are as rooted in their geographical roots as much as we are.

They have generally invested more in stadia than Super League clubs, mind.

Warrington are a fine example of how modern facilities can grow a Super League club. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...