Sat 12 Oct: SLGF: Salford Red Devils v St Helens KO 6pm (TV)

[Padge]

Just got home after another great day at the Grand Final.

Great to meet up with TonyXIII al the way from Crete and Bob8 from the relatively short hop from Copenhagen.

Great atmosphere, mainly due to the Salford support, Saints deserved their win  but Salforford did make them work for it.

The controversial refs decision, the ref backed himself, no problem, bit like the ref backed himself at Wembley, equally no problem,

[Dunbar]

Speaking of Saints being patient. I thought their tactic of turning the ball over close to the Salford line rather than risk a 7 tackle set from the 20 after a misplaced kick also paid off. Their oppressive defence won the battle for field position for most of the game.

[GeordieSaint]

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

Yes, whilst I enjoy a pile-on at Saints expense, we need to be careful not to act as badly as many Saints fans did after the Challenge Cup. I dont think it was all about the ref, I thought Saints were pretty dominant. 

If you are referring to us on here, I’d be pretty disappointed. Most of us on here didn’t act badly and most were critical of McManus’ comments.

[GeordieSaint]

2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Speaking of Saints being patient. I thought their tactic of turning the ball over close to the Salford line rather than risk a 7 tackle set from the 20 after a misplaced kick also paid off. Their oppressive defence won the battle for field position for most of the game.

Initially I thought we were playing a lack of composure but it became pretty clear it was a tactic. Throw in a very small element amount of mistakes made it really difficult for Salford to march up the field against a pretty strong Saints’ defensive effort.

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

If you are referring to us on here, I’d be pretty disappointed. Most of us on here didn’t act badly and most were critical of McManus’ comments.

I've always insisted that we have a good lot on here with only a couple of exceptions. A lot of my family and friends are Saints fans and so my social media timelines have a huge Saints presence and a large amount were classless, and tbh havent been much better in the last 24hrs.

But here it is definitely the minority.

[Bod]

34 minutes ago, Padge said:

Just got home after another great day at the Grand Final.

Great to meet up with TonyXIII al the way from Crete and Bob8 from the relatively short hop from Copenhagen.

Great atmosphere, mainly due to the Salford support, Saints deserved their win  but Salforford did make them work for it.

The controversial refs decision, the ref backed himself, no problem, bit like the ref backed himself at Wembley, equally no problem,

Great atmosphere mainly due to the Salford support? Take your Wigan loving / Saints hating Spectacles off.

[GeordieSaint]

26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I've always insisted that we have a good lot on here with only a couple of exceptions. A lot of my family and friends are Saints fans and so my social media timelines have a huge Saints presence and a large amount were classless, and tbh havent been much better in the last 24hrs.

But here it is definitely the minority.

OK - thanks for the explanation. 

It’s not just a Saints issue; it’s across the sport (and other sports in the UK). Some of the rubbish that’s been written on here and elsewhere about last night has been pretty pathetic; just at it was after the Challenge Cup Final by elements of my club. Victimhood and a sense of entitlement has spread throughout out society sadly.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

I'd say the reverse was true.

 

Do you honestly believe everyone has got the X sign on your team lass? I would say quite the reverse, I would think that of all the clubs in SL this season most people admire and recognise that your team is by far the best, even't Wigginers know this to be true.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that when one is in the stadium 50, 60, 70, or even more meters away from the action some of the finite actions can be lost, but the all searching one-eyed cyclops that is a television camera can see most things as they happen,  multiply that by 10, 11 or 12 camera's coming from different angles and the evidence is pretty conclusive - in most cases.

I would say that if you sat a number of referee's down to watch that game on the screen for the first time not knowing the result they would/could make different interpretations of a lot of Mr Kendalls rulings, I am not having it that Mr Kendall has purposefully premeditated that he is going to adjudge any deliberations in favour of Saints, it just happened that way, and the vast proportion against Salford, indeed Mr Cummins called a number of the decisions as wrongly delivered and the commentary team who strive to be 'neutral' caller's did their utmost to remain diplomatic. 

Can I suggest once your euphoria has ebbed away lets say prior to the start of next season, sit down, open minded, and replay this game - I shouldn't think you will have deleted it - it may just happen that your myopia may have improved somewhat.

In my view as a neutral observer the ref's performance was a bad one, it spoiled what was an intriguing contest, the dominance of Saints early on and the tenacity of Salford in holding them out and finding the will and why for to come back and nearly even things up at half time, those indifferent adjudications in the second stanza kept Saints in the ascendancy, and gradually wore Salford down, I think Saints would have come out victorious anyway.

BUT It really took the shine of Saints victory for me, and of a lot of others it seems.

[Padge]

32 minutes ago, Bod said:

Great atmosphere mainly due to the Salford support? Take your Wigan loving / Saints hating Spectacles off.

Ok, great atmosphere TOTALLY due to the Salford support.  

[Old Frightful]

43 minutes ago, Bod said:

Great atmosphere mainly due to the Salford support? Take your Wigan loving / Saints hating Spectacles off.

It says under your username that your location is "St Helens, Lancashire"...

Is this correct?

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Speaking of Saints being patient. I thought their tactic of turning the ball over close to the Salford line rather than risk a 7 tackle set from the 20 after a misplaced kick also paid off. Their oppressive defence won the battle for field position for most of the game.

It was an intriguing tactic that I picked up on. Not something you see much of, but they seemed to go for the power play every time when on the try line rather than finish with a kick and hope.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, Saintslass said:

I'd say the reverse was true.

Do you not think there were any incorrect calls made that benefited Saints?

Or do you think that there were more incorrect calls that benefited Salford? 

I'm interested to know.

Was it a better performance than the referee at Wembley?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, Saintslass said:

I'd say the reverse was true.

Double post

[JohnM]

15 hours ago, John Drake said:

Knock the ref bashing on the head, folks.

We don't do that sort of thing on TRL.

The only reason it's gone on as long as it has in here tonight is ckn is on holiday and I've been at the match and too busy to moderate it.

But it stops now.

If you just want to bang on about how the ref ruined everything and was totally biased blah blah blah, find somewhere else to do it.

Thanks.

Well, that went well.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

15 hours ago, John Drake said:

Knock the ref bashing on the head, folks.

We don't do that sort of thing on TRL.

The only reason it's gone on as long as it has in here tonight is ckn is on holiday and I've been at the match and too busy to moderate it.

But it stops now.

If you just want to bang on about how the ref ruined everything and was totally biased blah blah blah, find somewhere else to do it.

Thanks.

So we can talk about how the laws of the sport aren't fully enforced by officials (by all officials and as instructed by the head of officials by definition) and how the outcome of that massively effects the sport as a whole? 

Good. I'm glad we are allowed to continue discussing that because it's hugely important in terms of how the sport moves forward to be better! Most of all with respect to player welfare, protecting players of all levels, when you see the long term outcome of having ones head continually smacked and ragged about never mind neck injuries at the senior level we cannot ignore this any longer. This has a knock on affect to young kids getting hurt. On top of that it has an impact on how fairness and integrity of the sport is perceived - it matters not if you want to stymie discussion here regarding officials performance, people who watch casual or not will make their own minds up with regards to what they saw. We know this does have an effect on participation levels at the junior level and indeed potential interest from sponsors who don't want to be involved with a sport that deliberately ignores deliberate foul play that does have a serious impact on player welfare.

I'll start a new thread on the matter later on so as not to divert away from the match discussion.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

OK - thanks for the explanation. 

It’s not just a Saints issue; it’s across the sport (and other sports in the UK). Some of the rubbish that’s been written on here and elsewhere about last night has been pretty pathetic; just at it was after the Challenge Cup Final by elements of my club. Victimhood and a sense of entitlement has spread throughout out society sadly.

It's why my RL chat in general is confined to this forum. The mods do a good job here and we have a decent group with various views.

Other general social media platforms just have people out to shock.

[Trojan]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do you honestly believe everyone has got the X sign on your team lass? I would say quite the reverse, I would think that of all the clubs in SL this season most people admire and recognise that your team is by far the best, even't Wigginers know this to be true.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that when one is in the stadium 50, 60, 70, or even more meters away from the action some of the finite actions can be lost, but the all searching one-eyed cyclops that is a television camera can see most things as they happen,  multiply that by 10, 11 or 12 camera's coming from different angles and the evidence is pretty conclusive - in most cases.

I would say that if you sat a number of referee's down to watch that game on the screen for the first time not knowing the result they would/could make different interpretations of a lot of Mr Kendalls rulings, I am not having it that Mr Kendall has purposefully premeditated that he is going to adjudge any deliberations in favour of Saints, it just happened that way, and the vast proportion against Salford, indeed Mr Cummins called a number of the decisions as wrongly delivered and the commentary team who strive to be 'neutral' caller's did their utmost to remain diplomatic. 

Can I suggest once your euphoria has ebbed away lets say prior to the start of next season, sit down, open minded, and replay this game - I shouldn't think you will have deleted it - it may just happen that your myopia may have improved somewhat.

In my view as a neutral observer the ref's performance was a bad one, it spoiled what was an intriguing contest, the dominance of Saints early on and the tenacity of Salford in holding them out and finding the will and why for to come back and nearly even things up at half time, those indifferent adjudications in the second stanza kept Saints in the ascendancy, and gradually wore Salford down, I think Saints would have come out victorious anyway.

BUT It really took the shine of Saints victory for me, and of a lot of others it seems.

Open minded?  Saintslass ?

[Exiled Wiganer]

I should perhaps note that Saints were the best side of 2019 and would very likely have won last night regardless of the decisions of the referee. I nevertheless am gravely concerned that Saints’ institutional and deliberate open criticism of the CC referee has been followed by a set of 50/50 decisions in the GF which people far more neutral than I am consider to have pretty much all gone in McManus’ team’s direction.

Now, the officials and fans of that club can ignore that chain of events and celebrate as much as they like - and if I were in their shoes I may well do the same - but this sets a very dangerous precedent for our game. 

I don’t agree that this is a wider societal issue at all. I accept players and coaches shortly after games have criticised refs from time immemorial, and that the Aussies are past masters at referee influencing. But I cannot recall an entire club (roping in its own media) making such a concerted and prolonged attack at the integrity of a referee. Mr K may be entirely unaffected by the potential polemic coming his way, but which of us knows?

I would hope that no other club will ever stoop so low and that the RFL makes it clear in no uncertain terms that a repeat will not be tolerated. 

[Saintslass]

3 hours ago, swann5 said:

Well done saints fantastic season , but second half was a joke by kendal. He sould be made to sit in front of a ref's panel and explain himself . How can a super league ref not know it's illigal to hurdle over a  tackle . 

Must say, that was a new offence to me.  At the time I thought he was just trying to avoid being tackled.  I've seen players jump before and not get penalised for it so I didn't think anything of it at the time.

Interesting though that just prior to his jump, Grace got whacked in the face by a Salford player.  No penalty for Saints.

Evens on that one I'd say.

[Saintslass]

48 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Do you not think there were any incorrect calls made that benefited Saints?

Or do you think that there were more incorrect calls that benefited Salford? 

I'm interested to know.

Was it a better performance than the referee at Wembley?

I have said already that I believe the ref made a mistake in calling a knock on by the Salford forward when I believed a penalty should have been awarded to Salford for interference in the ruck by Smith.  That was a significant error I thought as Salford had just kicked a 40/20 and were on the line pushing for a score.  Had they been awarded a penalty they may still have not scored - they were scoreless in the second half - but that they were denied the chance was then and is now a problem for me.

But in my view that was the only problem.  We were pinged for a forward pass on the way to the tryline that didn't look at all forward.  Regan Grace was whacked in the face just before he did his jump (which at the time I didn't know was an offence) and we didn't get a penalty.  There were times in the first and second half when the ref could have decided either way on a few things for and against both Salford and Saints.  I've just watched the match again now and so that's all fresh in my mind.

But as I said, in my view the only actual definite error he made was the call I described above.

[Saintslass]

16 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I don’t agree that this is a wider societal issue at all. I accept players and coaches shortly after games have criticised refs from time immemorial, and that the Aussies are past masters at referee influencing. But I cannot recall an entire club (roping in its own media) making such a concerted and prolonged attack at the integrity of a referee. Mr K may be entirely unaffected by the potential polemic coming his way, but which of us knows?

Tony Smith had a good few whinges before he left the game in a huff if memory serves.  I seem to remember the Hull KR chairman chipping in during past years too.  I think you will find that there have been comments made by coaches and chairman on and off throughout rugby league history but of course they are all forgotten now because those terrible Saints people said something!  Wicked, wicked people.

The 'attack' was not prolonged.  That's just hyperbole.  It was an article in a match magazine.

Has Hicks reffed a major game since Wembley?

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

10 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

In the same way the referee never lost us the Challenge Cup Final, Kendall never won us this Grand Final. It’s quite a sad indictment on the game that rather than talking up the team that won and the team that lost, after such a good season, all focus is on the referee. 

Better side for 65-70 minutes and the class and quality of our side won that. 

Again, Luke Thompson, there can’t be many props better on the planet than him. 

Who on here or anywhere on social media has said that Kendall won you the GF, I can't say I'm a twatter follower but I've read Graun and FB comments (not all of them) and a fair few RL fans too, I haven't read anywhere that have said that Kendall cost Salford the trophy?

What did happen is that the referee/officials made a significant number of errors that had a bearing, all have an effect on the game/scoreline. Saints were the better side on the night but not by the scoreline as it ended up, I'm not interested in what they did in the league, they didn't 'deserve' it on the back of that, they were the best side but that's a different competition, no side ever deserves to win a competiton based on their previous form/play, it's what they do in the game that matters.

However when you're getting a leg up, playing well is made all the easier to do so and harder for the opposition to match when they are having multiple decisions go against them through no fault of their own. This does change the mentality (of both teams) and it also has an effect physically too. Without those incorrect decisions would the outright outcome be different, probably not, but it would have been a hell of a lot closer, at least competitive and not look like one team is getting favoured officiating which puts a negative spin on the match/occasion.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

8 hours ago, Colin James said:

Saints deserved champions. Clearly the best team in a competition full of average sides.

One of the commentators last night declared them the best Super League team ever. Relative to their contemporaries this may have some merit when you look at the winning margin but I'm not sure they'd have run away with the league had the overall standard been higher. I'd love to see them tested a bit more next season if others raise their game. The potential is there to be a truly great team. 

Not even the best Saints side in SL, Clarke is just there to spout nonsense/fill in gaps between the commentary, if you can call it that.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

4 hours ago, Chris22 said:

Moving on to what we should be talking about the match! Having finished 16 points clear and winning out play off games by an aggregate of 63-10 (against 2nd and 3rd respectively), I do not think that it can be denied that we deserved to be champions.

My concerns going into the match were about our errors and lack of composure. That's why I was pleased to see a patient approach, which was maintained even after we didn't make an immediate breakthrough. I thought we dominated the first 25 minutes, but Salford dominated the next 15 minutes. Half time certainly came at a better time for us. 

On reflection, the Percival try was huge. The first 10 minutes of the second half were evenly matched, perhaps even shaded by Salford, but we got that crucial first try. Not many sides come back from a two-score deficit in Grand Finals so that buffer was welcome.

We didn't try too much for the rest of the game and sensibly saw it home. In the last two weeks, I have seen a different side to us. We adapted our tactics well, such as not risking a 20m restart and taking a powerplay on the last due to the short in goals. Now we have shown we can do it when it matters, I hope we can kick on further next year and that winning trophies doesn't become a once every few year occurrence.

Salford played well and certainly did not freeze in the same way Castleford did in 2017. They caused us problems and on another day, the game would have been far closer. It's a shame they are losing a lot of their better players.

That is utter nonsense, your form in a different competition (for which you won a trophy for) is utterly irrelevant when it comes to another competition. You don't 'deserve' anything based on what you did before, if you'd have lost would that have meant you deserved to win on the back of your aggregate scores against the 2nd/3rd place teams in a different competion and the way you played in the previous games (which was top drawer btw), of course not, so saying you deserve to win is just stupid and illogical.

You deserve to win if you play well enough when it matters, not based on other games in other competitions.

[Chris22]

27 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

That is utter nonsense, your form in a different competition (for which you won a trophy for) is utterly irrelevant when it comes to another competition. You don't 'deserve' anything based on what you did before, if you'd have lost would that have meant you deserved to win on the back of your aggregate scores against the 2nd/3rd place teams in a different competion and the way you played in the previous games (which was top drawer btw), of course not, so saying you deserve to win is just stupid and illogical.

You deserve to win if you play well enough when it matters, not based on other games in other competitions.

You're right.

Suggesting that clearly the best team over the course of both the regular season and play offs deserves to be crowned champions is crazy. On reflection, I feel a bit stupid having posted that.