Why old Trafford?

[Smoketrail]

As a grand final I'm wondering why at Old Trafford? Stadium and crowd looked good, but the pitch looked awful. Too small in goal, too small width, football lines all over. I think it should be bid on and moved around every year. Where else could it be held?

[davet]

Old Trafford.

[Jim Prendle]

13 minutes ago, Smoketrail said:

As a grand final I'm wondering why at Old Trafford? Stadium and crowd looked good, but the pitch looked awful. Too small in goal, too small width, football lines all over. I think it should be bid on and moved around every year. Where else could it be held?

Good question, and I like the idea of moving it around.

People get fed up of going to the same place, and maybe this is one reason why GF attendances are generally falling.

I still go every year, but I would get a lot more excited about it if the next 3 were to be held at Tottenham's new stadium, the Aviva in Dublin and Cardiff.

[davet]

1 minute ago, Jim Prendle said:

Good question, and I like the idea of moving it around.

People get fed up of going to the same place, and maybe this is one reason why GF attendances are generally falling.

I still go every year, but I would get a lot more excited about it if the next 3 were to be held at Tottenham's new stadium, the Aviva in Dublin and Cardiff.

I would say attendances falling are more down to the repeatativeness of fixtures and not people being fed up of going to the same place.

[fighting irish]

What was the attendance last weekend? 

[Jim Prendle]

Just now, davet said:

I would say attendances falling are more down to the repeatativeness of fixtures and not people being fed up of going to the same place.

That may be true, but nobody actually knows what the reasons are.

It is probably a combination of many things, but surely it can't do any harm to have a bit of variety around the stadium used for the final

[whatmichaelsays]

The simple answer is that is the most appropriate venue. It's close and easily connected to the core audience (consider that the finalists are only known one week before the event), Old Trafford is a prestigious name in sport in the way that most other venues aren't, it's big enough and there's nothing inherently wrong with it aside from the pitch length (you're going to have visible football lines at any suitable venue and other than the Etihad, I think most soccer grounds would be too short for full-length in-goals).

There are lots of reasons why attendances might be falling for the GF - the venue it's played at is way. way down the list. 

[Jim Prendle]

Just now, whatmichaelsays said:

The simple answer is that is the most appropriate venue. It's close and easily connected to the core audience (consider that the finalists are only known one week before the event), Old Trafford is a prestigious name in sport in the way that most other venues aren't, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it aside from the pitch length (you're going to have visible football lines at any suitable venue).

There are lots of reasons why attendances might be falling for the GF - the venue it's played at is way. way down the list. 

And what makes you so certain of that?

 

[Big Picture]

6 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

What was the attendance last weekend? 

I saw the crowd reported as 64,102 in the BBC's live text coverage of the match.

[Eddie]

Good transport links, iconic stadium, located within easy reach of any team likely to make the final (other than now Toronto). There isn’t another stadium in the North of England big enough. I doubt people aren’t going because it’s always there (if that was the case the FA Cup final crowds would have dwindled to 10,000 after nearly 100 years), and why would you get a bigger crowd in Dublin or Cardiff?

[Eddie]

Just now, Big Picture said:

I saw the crowd reported as 64,102 in the BBC's live text coverage of the match.

That’s a highly respectable crowd, other than football and Union what domestic club sport in this country would hope to get anywhere near that for any event. 

[whatmichaelsays]

20 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

And what makes you so certain of that?

Because I can come up with a host of reasons why people might not be attracted to the Grand Final that are, in my view, a much bigger deal than the venue it's played at or football markings on the pitch. 

• Pricing
• Promotion
• The fan experience
• The teams competing
• Fixture fatigue
• Competition from other events

That's just what I came up with in ten seconds. With a bit of research time and some data to crunch, I could probably increase that list ten-fold. What you'll also note is that none of these are fixed by a change of venue. 

[Tommygilf]

Old Trafford is great for the Grand Final. Better atmosphere than Wembley etc.

 

[Dunbar]

29 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

GF attendances are generally falling.

Depends what you mean by generally falling.

If you take from the high point (73,512 in 2015) then yes they have gone down since then.

But if you take the attendances for the Grand Final overall there is a strong upward trend so they 'generally' going up.

The average attendance over the 22 events is 65,533 so the 64,102 this year is pretty close to the norm.

Personally, I think it would be a brave (or foolish) decision to take this game away from Old Trafford as it is now the single most important day in our domestic calendar and by any reasonable measure a huge success.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Because I can come up with a host of reasons why people might not be attracted to the Grand Final that are, in my view, a much bigger deal than the venue it's played at or football markings on the pitch. 

• Pricing
• Promotion
• The fan experience
• The teams competing
• Fixture fatigue
• Competition from other events

That's just what I came up with in ten seconds. With a bit of research time and some data to crunch, I could probably increase that list ten-fold. What you'll also note is that none of these are fixed by a change of venue. 

But to be fair, you have provided as much evidence as Jim has for his.

Old Trafford looks great for this event on TV and has a good capacity, but otherwise it is a dive with poor facilities around the ground.

I'd probably keep it there and move the Cup though tbh.

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But to be fair, you have provided as much evidence as Jim has for his.

Old Trafford looks great for this event on TV and has a good capacity, but otherwise it is a dive with poor facilities around the ground.

I'd probably keep it there and move the Cup though tbh.

Where would you go that isn’t a dive and has good facilities around the ground though? It really needs a 70k capacity and to be in the North of England. 

[doc]

Yeah, let's not have the sports biggest game at one of the world's most famous stadiums. Why would neutral fans want to go every single year to see two teams give their all to be champions? 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

Where would you go that isn’t a dive and has good facilities around the ground though? It really needs a 70k capacity and to be in the North of England. 

Hence my last line.

[whatmichaelsays]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But to be fair, you have provided as much evidence as Jim has for his.

Old Trafford looks great for this event on TV and has a good capacity, but otherwise it is a dive with poor facilities around the ground.

I'd probably keep it there and move the Cup though tbh.

I have, but I don't think I'm making unreasonable assumptions in this instance. I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that SLE's own research would also show that the venue is a low priority issue here. I struggle to see a better / more appropriate venue given the circumstances of the Grand Final. 

I'm not sure I'd call Old Trafford a dump either. Whilst it has probably fallen behind some of the PL's newer venues, it's not that long ago that it was hosting UEFA's showpiece club event. 

I'd personally keep both events where they are and focus on adapting them to the market. You can move either event and not address the real reasons why people aren't interested. 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

There’s roughly a 20k drop in terms of capacity from Old Trafford to the second biggest ground in the north of England, The Etihad. The last time we had less than 55k at a Final was the second ever Grand Final, twenty years ago. 
 

It’s a pretty simple choice really. If we want to keep this in the North, it has to stay at Old Trafford. I can’t see us going to two finals in London, especially when one isn’t attended all that well and the grounds we could move to are smaller than Old Trafford. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I have, but I don't think I'm making unreasonable assumptions in this instance. I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that SLE's own research would also show that the venue is a low priority issue here. I struggle to see a better / more appropriate venue given the circumstances of the Grand Final. 

I'm not sure I'd call Old Trafford a dump either. Whilst it has probably fallen behind some of the PL's newer venues, it's not that long ago that it was hosting UEFA's showpiece club event. 

I'd personally keep both events where they are and focus on adapting them to the market. You can move either event and not address the real reasons why people aren't interested. 

As I said, I'd keep it at OT for the couple of positives i highlighted, and the fact that the crowds are holding up well, 64k is fine.

But I do think monotony is a reason it is not jam-packed every year. We have seen the impact repeat fixtures in the final can have.

I dont think Wembley is fit for purpose nowadays for RL.

[Dave T]

Just now, Oliver Clothesoff said:

There’s roughly a 20k drop in terms of capacity from Old Trafford to the second biggest ground in the north of England, The Etihad. The last time we had less than 55k at a Final was the second ever Grand Final, twenty years ago. 
 

It’s a pretty simple choice really. If we want to keep this in the North, it has to stay at Old Trafford. I can’t see us going to two finals in London, especially when one isn’t attended all that well and the grounds we could move to are smaller than Old Trafford. 

Yep, I'd agree, the capacity is the important thing here.

If City ever go to the 65k then that maybe becomes a consideration.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yep, I'd agree, the capacity is the important thing here.

If City ever go to the 65k then that maybe becomes a consideration.

Even then we’ve had back-to-back 64k attendances, a 63k in 2009 and the last one before that below 65k was 2002 when Old Trafford’s capacity was probably around 65-67k. 

The Millennium Stadium poses a good option though and is only 1,200 less than OT and has a roof, so those who dislike finals in the rain (basically any Saints fan ever) can stop moaning about that. 

[Eddie]

1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Even then we’ve had back-to-back 64k attendances, a 63k in 2009 and the last one before that below 65k was 2002 when Old Trafford’s capacity was probably around 65-67k. 

The Millennium Stadium poses a good option though and is only 1,200 less than OT and has a roof, so those who dislike finals in the rain (basically any Saints fan ever) can stop moaning about that. 

I can’t see anything like as many people being bothered to go to Cardiff as go to OT though, given the distances and probable overnight stay involved. 

[Nomad XIII]

12 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Even then we’ve had back-to-back 64k attendances, a 63k in 2009 and the last one before that below 65k was 2002 when Old Trafford’s capacity was probably around 65-67k. 
. 

Attendance was ~65,500 two years running, maybe 2002/3. Those were both sell outs