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Gerrumonside ref

Where do St Helens 2019 rank among all time great U.K. teams?

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41 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Always difficult to compare teams from different eras.

I saw the top Wigan sides at Central Park and they were very dominant, but was it a level playing field

There is not and never has been such thing as a level playing field, in any sport.

Certain teams/individuals, depending on a number of variables, always have advantages.

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43 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Always difficult to compare teams from different eras.

I saw the top Wigan sides at Central Park and they were very dominant, but was it a level playing field really?

If you look at how close some of Wigan's seasons were they were only dominant in a small number, the playing field was a lot more level than people think. Wigan didn't suddenly have this fully professional team overnight and other teams started follow Wigan's lead and offer full time contracts to their top players. Many Wigan players throughout the "glory years" were still semi-pro, especially in the early period.

 

 


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15 hours ago, Damien said:

I don't think one good year makes them great. This is particularly so when every other club, especially the bigger clubs, were so poor.

Can't agree, a season is enough IMO, we compare teams on a season basis as invariably teams never remain exactly the same from one year to the next so it's really comparing a 'dynasty'  as the yanks like to call it, isn't really valid because each year the players are different.

Saints have a good year overall, a bit better than last year but my opinion is that it's the 3rd or even 4th best St.Helens team in superleague alone. the '06 and '08 teams most definitely in front.

Comparing to Saints best teams of all time, it might get into their top 10 but that's for Saints fans to decide upon, IMO I don't think this team gets into a top 100 of all time.

The points diff at the top of the table is misleading compared to half the years in the last 50 as it's not a winning the league competition but a play-off competition to decide champions AND again IMO I think most of the teams this year were also rans, hence why it was tight between 2nd and bottom, it had never been that close ever. That isn't disrespecting London (or even Saints), but they should never have got anywhere near to surviving but due to the overall quality of the league I believe that in part is why that happened and equally why Saints were so far ahead.

 

Edited by Denton Rovers RLFC

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14 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Can't agree, a season is enough IMO, we compare teams on a season basis as invariably teams never remain exactly the same from one year to the next so it's really comparing a 'dynasty'  as the yanks like to call it, isn't really valid because each year the players are different.

Saints have a good year overall, a bit better than last year but my opinion is that it's the 3rd or even 4th best St.Helens team in superleague alone. the '06 and '08 teams most definitely in front.

Comparing to Saints best teams of all time, it might get into their top 10 but that's for Saints fans to decide upon, IMO I don't think this team gets into a top 100 of all time.

The points diff at the top of the table is misleading compared to half the years in the last 50 as it's not a winning the league competition but a play-off competition to decide champions AND again IMO I think most of the teams this year were also rans, hence why it was tight between 2nd and bottom, it had never been that close ever. That isn't disrespecting London (or even Saints), but they should never have got anywhere near to surviving but due to the overall quality of the league I believe that in part is why that happened and equally why Saints were so far ahead.

 

Not even in the top 100 of all time?

That seems a little harsh, but I guess it’s your view.

Out of interest do you have an idea on who would be in your top ten historically?   

Probably rating teams based on how dominant they were against their rivals and maybe trying to quantify the quality of those rivals.  It’s difficult to be truly objective I admit, but it’s all interesting stuff.
 

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11 hours ago, Chris22 said:

Behind our 2000, 2006 and 2008 teams, but still special.

We were fantastic this year but can't be considered amongst the greatest as we didn't win the treble.

Actually just read your comment, glad that another Saints fan agrees with my opinion on how good this years Saints team is, that in itself tells you how good those Saints sides were, the '06 team was very, very special, absolute class.

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34 minutes ago, Padge said:

If you look at how close some of Wigan's seasons were they were only dominant in a small number, the playing field was a lot more level than people think. Wigan didn't suddenly have this fully professional team overnight and other teams started follow Wigan's lead and offer full time contracts to their top players. Many Wigan players throughout the "glory years" were still semi-pro, especially in the early period.

 

 

I think I do remember at least two end of season  ‘deciders’ - maybe one against Bradford Northern and maybe one against Castleford, but it’s lost in the haze of time.

I do remember a bit more clearly though the endless run in the Challenge Cup.

Also that period where a draw or a low scoring defeat for underdog Saints seemed like a victory of sorts!

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1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think I do remember at least two end of season  ‘deciders’ - maybe one against Bradford Northern and maybe one against Castleford, but it’s lost in the haze of time.

I do remember a bit more clearly though the endless run in the Challenge Cup.

Also that period where a draw or a low scoring defeat for underdog Saints seemed like a victory of sorts!

One season Wigan, Warrington and Bradford could have all won it on the last weekend, Sky showed all the games which was something new.

There was the mission impossible were Wigan were playing every two days(ish) for just over a week to win it.

The eight challenge cups was a bit freaky, the relief in Wigan when Salford put a stop to it was quite paltible. 

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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40 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Not even in the top 100 of all time?

That seems a little harsh, but I guess it’s your view.

Out of interest do you have an idea on who would be in your top ten historically?   

Probably rating teams based on how dominant they were against their rivals and maybe trying to quantify the quality of those rivals.  It’s difficult to be truly objective I admit, but it’s all interesting stuff.
 

I don't see it as harsh at all more realistic and I base it on a few things.

Firstly, three other saints sides in SL era are better IMO, also several Leeds, Wigan, Bradford teams are better in the SL era (even those sides that didn't win the comp) plus two Hull FC teams (06 & 16), the 2017 Cas team and probably a Warrington side or two., possibly even the Hudds LL winning side, mmm, they were very, very good - you need not have won the comp to be a better side when the competition is at a higher standard comparatively. I'd go so far as to say 15-20 teams better than the current Saints outfit since SL was formed.

Now look back over history, the great Huddersfield and Hunslet teams of the 20th Century, the Hull FC sides of the 1910s, our early/mid 50s sides and our early to mid 80s sides. Many Wigan sides stretching over a lot of their history, Wakefield's dreadnought sides, Widnes, Warrington all had superlative teams at one point or another, Leigh (their '82 team was fantastic). Salford's mid 70s team were sheet hot, Hull KR - yes even our East Hull six fingered friends have had some mighty sides I would easily place above the current Saints side and by a distance, Swinton, the early to mid 70s St.Helens teams.

That's just the one's I can think of.

Top ten historically, I'd have to really give it some thought, there's just so many legendary sides oozing with class, talent and monster forwards that would chew many of todays packs up and use them to sound a tune on a spittoon 😂

Edited by Denton Rovers RLFC
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10 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

I don't see it as harsh at all more realistic and I base it on a few things.

Firstly, three other saints sides in SL era are better IMO, also several Leeds, Wigan, Bradford teams are better in the SL era (even those sides that didn't win the comp) plus two Hull FC teams (06 & 16), the 2017 Cas team and probably a Warrington side or two., possibly even the Hudds LL winning side, mmm, they were very, very good - you need not have won the comp to be a better side when the competition is at a higher standard comparatively. I'd go so far as to say 15-20 teams better than the current Saints outfit since SL was formed.

Now look back over history, the great Huddersfield and Hunslet teams of the 20th Century, the Hull FC sides of the 1910s, our early/mid 50s sides and our early to mid 80s sides. Many Wigan sides stretching over a lot of their history, Wakefield's dreadnought sides, Widnes, Warrington all had superlative teams at one point or another, Leigh (their '82 team was fantastic). Salford's mid 70s team were sheet hot, Hull KR - yes even our East Hull six fingered friends have had some mighty sides I would easily place above the current Saints side and by a distance, Swinton, the early to mid 70s St.Helens teams.

That's just the one's I can think of.

Fair enough that’s your view - who would be your all-time top ten from the one’s you’ve listed.

Just for fun - no rush!

Edited by Gerrumonside ref

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I edited above whilst you answered.

As you say it's opinion ATEOTD it doesn't really matter, it's good to chat and dig up old RL history/legendary teams and make idle comparison, it's meaningless really and not important, it's just sport.😜

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1 minute ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

I edited above whilst you answered.

As you say it's opinion ATEOTD it doesn't really matter, it's good to chat and dig up old RL history/legendary teams and make idle comparison, it's meaningless really and not important, it's just sport.😜

Yes, I agree and while I’ve watched the game for a long time, I know I’m not as steeped in the history and folklore as many others on here including yourself.

I imagine myself and a few others will always find these kind of conversations interesting to learn more.

Cheers for your replies.

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