New York - weeks from approval

[Tex Evans Thigh]

11 hours ago, SL17 said:

Fair comment. You can’t run before you walk. As for the “fame” comment TWP have chosen fame above development and structure. 
 

Hopefully NY don’t follow the same path. TWP stated to put rugby balls in kids hands. Which was nice! But really only hiding the fact no development or structure was under way. Are they still putting rugby balls in kids hands now they have reached the promised land?

No.

Lets hope New York do it better.

Maybe the fame bit is needed first to garner interest and then build up the youth leagues. It's hard to get kids interested in something they have no clue about.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

5 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Yes, but just for a day so some press photos could be taken with TWP players before the kids ran back to their Rugby Union clubs. Not only do you swallow all this PR stuff, you promote it yourself. Stick to the OP it's about New York not the phonies.

More garbage, the development of top players comes through playing regularly in organnised games in junior schools and amateur leagues. It comes from being coached by people with experience of playing RL. It comes from regular competetive games. Both of you know it does but you can't help using a thread about New York to promote the phoney club. go open your own apologists thread for TWP.

Steady, these clubs are in a league, the USARL that crosses many boundaries and takes the RL game to many states. We know that the last USA team in the World cup for goodness sake had many home grown players - how good was that?

We know that developing any junior game takes decades fair enough but in the current USARL we have the opportunity for Rugby Union, Grid-Iron and any other players to give league a go with an opportunity to go train with an SL clubs and try playing at senior level pretty quickly if they are good. We have the opportunity for existing USARL players to go full time. Perez pretended to do this for 5 minutes then cynically abandoned it. New York and the USARL can run senior development week on week year on year? Back around 1970 Paul Grimes a north eastern RU player travelled to Leigh for a trial I believe, and became a great RL success. Senior converts are possible.

The issue here is are new York just aiming to get into superleague after two promotions then that is that? They will not then bother with any player development? They and Catalans and TWP will be the 25% allowed in the Superleague under the leagues new rulings? none of them bothering with junior, academy or reserves or some other system that is a serious attempt to develop quality players

And do these clubs then play in SL without any player development which is only going to see them at a disadvantage that means they join those clubs who never win anything but just make up the numbers, signing over the hill players top English and Aussie clubs don't want? We have to await more details of the NY business plan but it must include further and deeper player development  than what the USA game has actually achieved so far which is far far more than TWPhonies ever will. RL in Canada died twice - it's still dead there.

Lets forget TWP and keep the thread on New York and the USA Rugby League - it is very real.

Sadly, but not surprisingly, most of your points are undermined by childish name calling but I'll try to look past that.

Firtsly, I agree with you that these NA teams need to have a plan to develop junior players, particularly if more are going to enter the league. RL suffers from player numbers and it is one of the big potential positives of these teams going pro. The potential benefits of these areas producing professional players are huge.

Yes the USARL has a league, which is a much bigger effort than Canada has managed. However, as I pointed out, this is a social league, a league that is mainly made up of players that have played Union or ex-pats. There are very few/no NFL players. Most of the american lads will of course have played football at school, then tried Union at college before hearing about League and giving it a try. These are lads who are playing league for the first time in their 20's and at a pretty low level. They aren't, in most cases, anywhere the elite level of collision sport athletes that might make a go of professional RL. They are lads who fancy trying something new and having fun. Some turn out to be decent players, usually those with a deeper Union background who have played a decent level.

All this in no way places USARL as a breeding ground for professional US players. It absolutely doesn't. I've played in the league and seen it up close for a few years now and it is not a suitable vehicle for player production. The USARL is its current guise will never, ever produce junior players with the upbringing you correctly highlight as a prerequisite for a pro career (regular games, coaching from a young age etc).

So how do they do that? 

Well you have to have kids interested in something for them to take part. How do you gain interest? Probably have a successful pro team that kids go and watch so they can emulate their heroes. How do have a successful pro team? Pump money into it and get some quick success. Only then can you hope to build up a junior base who want to play the game.

Toronto now have a profile and are starting to use that for development as the other guys have demonstrated. They would have struggled massively and ultimately failed if their approach was to start with junior development and try and base their success on that. Its putting the cart before the horse and New York would be wise to follow the same path.

Toronto have done more junior development recently than the USARL has in its entire history.

If New York can become a success and then start getting juniors involved then the USARL could genuinely become a transition league for potential SL players who aspire to play for New York (or Toronto). The standard would undoubtedly go up it would serve a purpose. At the moment its a lone piece of pipe in a yet to be built plumbing network and thus has no water going through it.

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Maybe the fame bit is needed first to garner interest and then build up the youth leagues. It's hard to get kids interested in something they have no clue about.

This is top-down model of North American sports, proving time and time again in basketball, hockey and soccer. Establish a professional team in a new area, get the local populous interested in it, and, in time, the area will start producing players capable of playing the game at that elite level. It does take time though. Often a generation.

NYC is still all talk. Until they have a place to play - unlike, say, Ottawa - they cannot be taken seriously.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

33 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

This is top-down model of North American sports, proving time and time again in basketball, hockey and soccer. Establish a professional team in a new area, get the local populous interested in it, and, in time, the area will start producing players capable of playing the game at that elite level. It does take time though. Often a generation.

NYC is still all talk. Until they have a place to play - unlike, say, Ottawa - they cannot be taken seriously.

I don't think it's just applicable to NA sports but yes I agree, a pro team certainly helps junior development. You only have to look at London Broncos as evidence. The Broncos do a great job developing players and were even better unsurprisingly when they were a regular SL club.

I think Ottawa has a much higher chance of success then NYC.

[The Parksider]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

In Toronto They're promoting RL to youngsters

No they are not, they photographed a couple of TWP players with a few toddlers in rugby shirts and put that out as “junior development” it was utterly pathetic.

10 hours ago, TIWIT said:

This is top-down model of North American sports. Establish a professional team in a new area, get the local populous interested in it, and, in time, the area will start producing players capable of playing the game at that elite level.

Too late, all the grass roots playing interest has been captured by Canada Rugby Union who have grown Rugby as a sport in Canada whilst RL spent it’s time dying out twice. RL isn’t a sport in Canada it’s a day out at a beer festival.

11 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Yes the USARL has a league, which is a much bigger effort than Canada has managed. However, as I pointed out, this is a social league

Really – Then how come 11 of their players made the 2017 World cup, and Eichner and Burroughs made up a whole USA team? I’m sure an all American team could easily compete hard in league one from the start.  Nowt phoney about that is there………..some very poor excuses for TWPhonies on what should be a New York thread.

9 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I agree, a pro team certainly helps junior development. You only have to look at London Broncos as evidence.

Really? Broncos have a continuous history going back nearly 40 years so maybe you can name me all the current London born Superleague level players in the game? Lets also try the same exercise with Sheffield Eagles? TWPhonies will always be a manufactured team gentlemen.

[Kayakman]

7 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Do you live in La La land..

Calm down...you are getting all negative again!  I thought we had gotten you past that.

[Omott91]

3 hours ago, SL17 said:

Best post I have read in long while..Can’t fault it.

Bring on the insults...

Still no direct links to back up anything. There's an obvious fault. 

[Davo5]

2 hours ago, SL17 said:

Not negative Canoe lad. He’s just a force who thinks he knows he is right only to find out he failed.

Shame.

Wow Parky must have called an emergency all night meeting of the legion of doom,hope it's not too cold in that bunker of his.

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Wow Parky must have called an emergency all night meeting of the legion of doom,hope it's not too cold in that bunker of his.

I must have missed the text

[fieldofclothofgold]

When I lived over there in Philadelphia I noticed there were lots of sports that hardly got noticed. I remember watching Lacrosse on TV which I enjoyed very much ,but I noticed they were playing in front of very sparse crowds, well could t even call them crowds . Association Football has only just got a foothold over there after many years of trying and that is the world's most popular sport . 

[North but south]

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

No they are not, they photographed a couple of TWP players with a few toddlers in rugby shirts and put that out as “junior development” it was utterly pathetic.

Interesting. I'm guessing they shipped kids from Leigh when they put on the halftime game? 

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Too late, all the grass roots playing interest has been captured by Canada Rugby Union who have grown Rugby as a sport in Canada whilst RL spent it’s time dying out twice. RL isn’t a sport in Canada it’s a day out at a beer festival.

So the 4 junior clubs, Canadian high school challenge cup, female teams, and a inuit team, all sponsored and supported by Toronto wolfpack are signs rugby league has no grassroots?

[Tommygilf]

7 hours ago, The Parksider said:

No they are not, they photographed a couple of TWP players with a few toddlers in rugby shirts and put that out as “junior development” it was utterly pathetic.

Ah so we're back to disingenuous trolling now? At least we cleared that up!

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, North but south said:

Interesting. I'm guessing they shipped kids from Leigh when they put on the halftime game? 

So the 4 junior clubs, Canadian high school challenge cup, female teams, and a inuit team, all sponsored and supported by Toronto wolfpack are signs rugby league has no grassroots?

Great post - will be totally ignored, cut up and misconstrued mind, but great post!

[Kayakman]

3 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

When I lived over there in Philadelphia I noticed there were lots of sports that hardly got noticed. I remember watching Lacrosse on TV which I enjoyed very much ,but I noticed they were playing in front of very sparse crowds, well could t even call them crowds . Association Football has only just got a foothold over there after many years of trying and that is the world's most popular sport . 

I knew some of those lacrosse players who were in Philly!

Your point is valid and that is why Ottawa deserves the emphasis and attention but the English fans seem obsessed for some reason with New York.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

I knew some of those lacrosse players who were in Philly!

Your point is valid and that is why Ottawa deserves the emphasis and attention but the English fans seem obsessed for some reason with New York.

Its not a ridiculous suggestion to say that New York is a bigger headline grabber than Ottawa. It would be over almost any city in the world. 

That said I still think the Ottawa project has more legs in it

[Oxford]

Yeah but where did they get the cut out pictures and blow up dolls from?

There can't be much of a market out there unless we're planning loads of NA teams!

 

[RP London]

5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Ah so we're back to disingenuous trolling now? At least we cleared that up!

3 or 4 different dates on the posts, different kids and different kits.. they really have gone all out to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.. you have to wonder why they would bother... unless they didnt and all this is genuine and yes, of course, the photos etc are done for PR purposes that is sort of the point of Social Media and taking photos (unless I am missing something re social media). 

[DoubleD]

54 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Yeah but where did they get the cut out pictures and blow up dolls from?

There can't be much of a market out there unless we're planning loads of NA teams!

 

I wondered where my blow up doll went 

[Oxford]

44 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I wondered where my blow up doll went 

Your inflatable is on the Terraces at Odsal, seemed like a nice girl!

Last I heard she was leading the return to Bradford campaign.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

14 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Really – Then how come 11 of their players made the 2017 World cup, and Eichner and Burroughs made up a whole USA team? I’m sure an all American team could easily compete hard in league one from the start.  Nowt phoney about that is there………..some very poor excuses for TWPhonies on what should be a New York thread.

Really? Broncos have a continuous history going back nearly 40 years so maybe you can name me all the current London born Superleague level players in the game? Lets also try the same exercise with Sheffield Eagles? TWPhonies will always be a manufactured team gentlemen.

Yes, really. Eichner wasn't League 1 standard and was let go by the Wolfpack. Burroughs slightly better and had a good grounding in union. He's a bottom Championship/League 1 standard player. The rest of those players that made the world cup squad are not even League 1 standard apart from maybe 1.  There were players on that field pretending to be injured to come off or avoiding involvements because they were hopelessly out of their depth. The others were Aussie expats pretending to be American.

If the USA had fielded a full team of American born USARL players in the world cup it would have 150-0 every game and someone would have got seriously hurt. They hid a few of them around decent pro and semi pro players like Pettybourne and Vaivai. Here's a list of the squad and games played:

Player	Games	Points	Club
Taylor Alley	1	0	Central Florida Warriors
Ryan Burroughs	3	0	Toronto Wolfpack
CJ Cortalano	1	0	White Plains Wombats
Joe Eichner	2	0	Toronto Wolfpack
Bureta Faraimo	3	4	New Zealand Warriors
Gabriel Farley	2	0	Philadelphia Fight
Kristian Freed	3	0	White Plains Wombats
Daniel Howard	3	0	Wentworthville Magpies
Stephen Howard	2	0	Mount Pritchard Mounties
Martwain Johnston	1	0	Delaware Black Foxes
Andrew Kneisly	1	0	Philadelphia Fight
Corey Makelim	3	0	Mount Pritchard Mounties
Fotukava Malu	1	0	Atlanta Rhinos
David Marando	3	0	Belrose Eagles
Nick Newlin	1	0	Atlanta Rhinos
Mark Offerdahl (c)	3	0	London Broncos
Eddy Pettybourne	3	0	Gold Coast Titans
Josh Rice	3	0	New York Knights
Tui Samoa	3	0	Young Cherrypickers
Matt Shipway	2	4	South Newcastle Lions
Sam Tochterman-Talbott	2	0	Tweed Heads Seagulls
David Ulch	2	0	Tampa Mayhem
Taioalo "Junior" Vaivai	3	4	Western Suburbs Red Devils

Of the USARL players to play more than one game (usually a few minutes), Kristian Freed is Australian which leaves 3 players. Josh Rice went ok and was already a very good Union player developed by Old Blue Union. Gabriel Farley also an accomplished Union player on the wing for a couple of games. Only Josh Rice really contributed and that was with a few decent hit-ups and reasonable defence in his short stints.

I've played in the UK up to SL academy level, decent amateur level and down to bog standard Uni reserve team. I've also played in USARL so I'm qualified to make an assessment. You aren't.

You really want me to list all London born SL players? Are you mad? Some of us have jobs you know.  A large portion of the London squad this year are from London plus the likes of McCarthy-Scarsbrook and Clubb. The period London were in SL they started developing a fair few players and had a great network of development officers and the game was growing. Sadly funding was taken away and London slipped out of the top division slowing that down. I saw that because I was coaching in London at the time. Were you close to London junior scene at all or just sat smelling your farts typing on the internet in your flat in Leeds?

[westside]

Josh Rice played football at the University of Hawaii. Good athlete. He picked up RU and RL around the same time.

http://www.thisisamericanrugby.com/2014/03/rice-opens-up-on-code-switch-hawaii.html

[Tex Evans Thigh]

4 minutes ago, westside said:

Josh Rice played football at the University of Hawaii. Good athlete. He picked up RU and RL around the same time.

http://www.thisisamericanrugby.com/2014/03/rice-opens-up-on-code-switch-hawaii.html

Very good athlete and did surprisingly well in the world cup considering he was playing in the middle at a much higher level than he was used to. Not surprising he had a bit of RL background before he played USARL.

[RobertAM]

1 hour ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

 

I've played in the UK up to SL academy level, decent amateur level and down to bog standard Uni reserve team. I've also played in USARL so I'm qualified to make an assessment. You aren't.

 

He's only qualified to moan and denigrate any attempt to spread Rugby League because it doesn't fit with his "vision" which is stuck in the 60's. He'll still be spouting his claptrap when there's Toronto, Ottawa, NY, Philadelphia and Belgrade in RL. Pathetic.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

Just now, RobertAM said:

He's only qualified to moan and denigrate any attempt to spread Rugby League because it doesn't fit with his "vision" which is stuck in the 60's. He'll still be spouting his claptrap when there's Toronto, Ottawa, NY, Philadelphia and Belgrade in RL. Pathetic.

Sad thing is he has some decent points but they're lost in the coating of insults, spurious argument and outright rubbish that he has no clue about. NA teams should have a plan for junior development, I agree with him on that, it's just hard to have a discussion.

[The Parksider]

2 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

You really want me to list all London born SL players? Are you mad? 

Are you frit?  Name just the Superleague or the old first division quality players produced by London since 1980. Just do your best, it will help you and others realise that as big a city as London is where soccer is king and rugby is established as “Union” there’s been little room for junior player development for RL and few successes in over 40 years. On that basis I don’t see a thriving junior RL game in Toronto ever........

10 hours ago, North but south said:

So the 4 junior clubs, Canadian high school challenge cup, female teams, and a inuit team, all sponsored and supported by Toronto wolfpack are signs rugby league has no grassroots?

None of that will produce a single pro player and you should know that. For others let me explain.....

In Leeds the Rhinos despite being a big club for over a century struggle to compete with Union for kids playing the game. Rugby Union has a near monopoly on kids playing Rugby union in Toronto, and a big network of coaches and facilities. Given TWPhonies appeal to the adult beer crowd I don’t see them ever making any headway against the Rugby Union clubs. They know this hence they don’t bother.

It’s easy to list all the Toronto union clubs running junior Union projects, but even they struggle against Canadian sports and certainly soccer where there is a massive take up by Canadian kids. What chance has the foreign sport of RL attracting young quality players? None really.

To develop youngsters into professionals Leeds needs to get the game played in schools as much as they can, as I say a lot of schools stick with union. Those who love the game at school have a choice of 30 clubs to play junior RL at outside school, some of the big names are Oulton, Stanningley, Hunslet Parkside, Hunslet Warrios, Milford and Easts.

From that player pool Leeds can try to stock an academy and develop the best into professionals, but despite hundreds of kids going through the academy the success rate is very low. It’s been quoted as one or two academy kids per one hundred manage to get through to first team. Even then they may not last like Jordan Lilley and Ash Golding.

Look at the way Leeds have to chase Australians and buy other clubs stars all the time. It shows you that the player pool here isn’t enough to stock our SL clubs with English talent, we have to go cap in hand to Australia. It’s just a fact that Canada won’t ever develop a player production system based on youngsters.

Which is exactly why they didn’t promise this. They promised to develop players from the grid iron game. So it’s no good being up in arms about junior player development, even Perez knew they cannot do this, from his six year failure at Canada RL.

Footnote: Gents, no point in the insults it just makes me even more determined to have a right to a fair say. Stick to the board rules please.