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ShropshireBull

Ideal 14/15 Team Super League (Yet another restructure)

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Hello there!

 

Long time lurker but first post. As it's the off season for club rugby league I thought I would post about a speculative 15/14 SL and possible re structure (because I know we love them on here). First, some throat clearing. This would require me to win the euro millions and sort out Bradford with a 12,000 Capacity stadium. No, I am not in favour of franchising and want P + R, this is just what a successful 14/15 team league could look like. I am from Shropshire and although the name is ShropshireBull, I have no allegiance to any club but just remember the Bulls being the team when I was younger. For the love of God let's not turn this into another Toronto only post. Although I am in favour of p + r I would be happy to see registered expansion teams given a 3 year grace period before they can be relegated (so Toulouse for instance) this would allow them and Catalans to work together and grow the sport there whilst having yearly rivalry games but also eliminating loop fixtures. If we are going to have Toronto (I know Parksider, I know) then we do need another NA team so I have included one. Tbh, I would love to see us have more French teams but take it for what it is.

I have chose teams based on their potential and opportunity for growth of the sport. I have put a speculative average for what I think they could average in attendances . 

 

St Helens      12,000 , Wigan         11,000  

Leeds            13,000 ,   Bradford    8,000

Hull               11,000,   Hull KR       8,000

Catalan        8,000,    Toulouse     6,000

Toronto       8,000,     NA Team    8,000

Warrington  10,000,    Cas           7,000

Newcastle 6,000,      AN Other    5,000

AN Other   5,000

 

Two relegation places outright or 1 guaranteed with the Championship winners going up and the 2nd from bottom Super League team entering the championship playoffs to keep their place. This way, we keep mobility in the pyramid, we guarantee a minimum number of teams from each country for tv deals and international growth of the game. 

Keen to see what the long time experts would make of such a system. 

 

 

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Welcome to the forum.

Some interesting ideas there. I’d like to see a 14 team league with pure P&R and no protected places - if a team isn’t strong enough to stay up they can go down and rebuild like everyone else has to imho.

Two up two down; champions up automatically, 14th down,  with 13th in SL and 2nd-4th in the Championship playing off  

Also think Toronto will average more than 8,000, Tolouse would be well below 6,000 and would change a few others but obv that’s all speculation anyway. Cas already get over 7,000 and if Widnes were one of your AN Others they’d do better than 5,000. Salford fans might be annoyed not to see themselves there also!

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no cumbrian team marra?? we could get 6k each home game.2000 in the ground + 4000 of our mates in the sheep pens outside. before you complain about this post i am a cumbrian and i live on a farm .stick that in your pipe an smoke it.ps up the raiders.

 

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Beijing, NYC, Berlin, Caracas...Oh, never mind. Let’s be realistic. 

A Super League sponsored by a few major bluechip companies, with massive prize money on offer, that sees the best sides, however, many that may be, competing for the title.

Ideally, somewhere between 12-14 clubs, I’d be inclined to have 13 for now, what with Toronto’s inclusion and I’d, if it can be done, arrange teams bye week to be after they’ve been to Toronto. 

P&R? I’m not completely sold on it. It makes for some great entertainment, however, is it morally right to put livelihoods at stake when we have so few professional sides as it is? That’s probably for another discussion. 

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8 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

 

P&R? I’m not completely sold on it. It makes for some great entertainment, however, is it morally right to put livelihoods at stake when we have so few professional sides as it is? That’s probably for another discussion. 

Would you watch 11th v 12th on a wet Thursday night if there was no P&R?

Players can still get paid if relegated, either by moving clubs if they’re good enough or by getting paid a suitable amount in the lower division. 

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31 minutes ago, the mutt said:

no cumbrian team marra?? we could get 6k each home game.2000 in the ground + 4000 of our mates in the sheep pens outside. before you complain about this post i am a cumbrian and i live on a farm .stick that in your pipe an smoke it.ps up the raiders.

 

Where would the Cumbrian side be? The only area I could see sustaining a SL side is the Workington/Whitehaven area but presumably they would never merge so I imagine it’s Championship at best for any Cumbrian club unless someone will millions to throw at it comes along. Which is a shame imho. 

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3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Would you watch 11th v 12th on a wet Thursday night if there was no P&R?

Players can still get paid if relegated, either by moving clubs if they’re good enough or by getting paid a suitable amount in the lower division. 

Yes, I would. I don’t support my team based solely off where they finish each season. I’d watch my team if they were 11th or 12th. I’d also watch a televised Thursday night between 11th or 12th because I love Rugby League. 

 

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1 minute ago, Eddie said:

Where would the Cumbrian side be? The only area I could see sustaining a SL side is the Workington/Whitehaven area but presumably they would never merge so I imagine it’s Championship at best for any Cumbrian club unless someone will millions to throw at it comes along. Which is a shame imho. 

we can but dream,is that still allowed.?All we need is a couple of millionares +bae and glaxo.oh aye sellafield could help enall.simples.

 

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So no , Huddersfield Wakefield or Salford in this new league? Add in a club that doesn't exist and a club that has been a basket case for the last few years

Interesting.

Why no Birmingham/Leicester ?

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Hi there, 

Yes I have been conservative on sum.  Cas average comes from the 7k they got this year. Think in the world where I build a 12k 3g stadium for bulls they could pull more but I wanted to be conservative. Same with Toronto I think.

Where I may have been too ambitious is Newcastle but they are getting 1000 in League 1 and they would be a welcome away Day. 

Toulouse with the rivalry game could get up to 6k or level with Huddesfield. I would give Toulouse the 3 year holiday similar to Catalans so they can build and help grow the game.  

Are 5,000 fans in France worth more than in England?  Probably.  The AN others could be a host of teams who could no doubt get plus the real challenge is to build a second tier with enough competitive teams to get a FTA deal to grow the exposure of the game and make it a friday night fixture on the telly.  

And yes, I am sad enough to have thought of what that will look like.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Beijing, NYC, Berlin, Caracas...Oh, never mind. Let’s be realistic. 

A Super League sponsored by a few major bluechip companies, with massive prize money on offer, that sees the best sides, however, many that may be, competing for the title.

Ideally, somewhere between 12-14 clubs, I’d be inclined to have 13 for now, what with Toronto’s inclusion and I’d, if it can be done, arrange teams bye week to be after they’ve been to Toronto. 

P&R? I’m not completely sold on it. It makes for some great entertainment, however, is it morally right to put livelihoods at stake when we have so few professional sides as it is? That’s probably for another discussion. 

Come on, players have been involved in P&R in many sports for years, some on here make it sound as though some of them would be made homeless. Look at London, they have gone down this season after a great effort to stay up, but players have moved on, some to SL Clubs and some have stayed. I haven't heard of any being made penniless.

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22 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Come on, players have been involved in P&R in many sports for years, some on here make it sound as though some of them would be made homeless. Look at London, they have gone down this season after a great effort to stay up, but players have moved on, some to SL Clubs and some have stayed. I haven't heard of any being made penniless.

We should cancel relegation from the football league as well, and the Union premiership. Maybe Serie B and the Segunda in spain too. 

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1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Yes, I would. I don’t support my team based solely off where they finish each season. I’d watch my team if they were 11th or 12th. I’d also watch a televised Thursday night between 11th or 12th because I love Rugby League. 

 

Very admirable but many wouldn’t, if there was no jeopardy it would be incredibly dull to a lot of people. I’d have better things to do on a thursday (or any) night than watch a load of uninterested players in a meaningless game. 

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54 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Come on, players have been involved in P&R in many sports for years, some on here make it sound as though some of them would be made homeless. Look at London, they have gone down this season after a great effort to stay up, but players have moved on, some to SL Clubs and some have stayed. I haven't heard of any being made penniless.

Many in sports with far deeper foundations and far more professional sides, which you conveniently forgot to mention.  

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31 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Very admirable but many wouldn’t, if there was no jeopardy it would be incredibly dull to a lot of people. I’d have better things to do on a thursday (or any) night than watch a load of uninterested players in a meaningless game. 

Many people do though, in many sports, Rugby League included. Without wanting to be harsh to some Super League clubs, they still manage to shift season tickets and get 5k crowds plus each home game when their side realistically has little to no chance of winning anything. If you get unlucky and draw a big side in the first round of the Cup, your season is done in May. Fans still turn up. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Many people do though, in many sports, Rugby League included. Without wanting to be harsh to some Super League clubs, they still manage to shift season tickets and get 5k crowds plus each home game when their side realistically has little to no chance of winning anything. If you get unlucky and draw a big side in the first round of the Cup, your season is done in May. Fans still turn up. 

 

That’s because they also have a chance of going down though. As the system is with play offs for most of the season (in football and RL) most teams still have a chance of doing something, be it make the play offs or go down. A last week of the season win to stay up is often as exciting as winning something.  Take that away and people lose interest. Take the NFL, the later season games with the worst teams are often played in half empty stadiums. 

Edited by Eddie
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Ok so back in the dry. Don't want to turn it into an essay but people took the time to respond so here goes.

1 hour ago, Red Willow said:

So no , Huddersfield Wakefield or Salford in this new league? Add in a club that doesn't exist and a club that has been a basket case for the last few years

Interesting.

Why no Birmingham/Leicester ?

As mentioned, AN Other could be a bunch of teams. Again I don't want franchising and the whole benefit of expanding the league with a 2 up , 2 down or 1 guaranteed plus potential playoff winners is that you would have more chance of a variety of clubs getting into the top tier for a few seasons. Can Huddersfield draw more than Leigh in Super League ? No. Would Wakefield be better than Widnes? Widnes got 4000 this year and could probably get 6,000 again in Super League. A Cumbrian side could probably make it, Barrow got solid attendances despite a poor season this time around. 

The point here is to give opportunities for all clubs (even Keighley who were barred all those years ago) to go up without needing to break the bank and people have something to play for.

Also, if Toronto exist then we would need another NA team for it to work I feel. Plus, this Ottawa set up is going to happen and on 'a basket case' I would say read the first bit where I acknowledged Bradford's dire situation but we can't deny if Bradford had an even basic stadium that doesn't chew up money they could draw 8,000 in Super League. 

Oliver, I'd go 15 to do the rest week if clubs play the back to back NA games then get the week off and not have to remove British teams for the foreign ones but part of any restructure involves having a thriving second tier which can generate it's own stories excitement and playoffs. If we cut off the opportunity for those clubs to progress are people's livelihoods not being potentially damaged by not being able to reach their potential? I'd say so. Plus 15 is 14 home games a year which I heard bandied round as the magic number and no more loop fixtures. 

As mentioned, a Super League like this (let's say Salford and Leigh are in SL for the sake of arguement) would leave a pretty stacked championship (Giants, Wakefield, Rovers, Widnes, Broncos, York) all with a real chance of pushing for the two promotion spots every year and perhaps re-energising lapsed fans at other clubs if one season they made the big time. Also , it should produce enough excitement to look for a FTA TV deal to get exposure for the game. I watched alot of Championship games on the RL website and I think it could find a home somewhere.

 

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4 minutes ago, Eddie said:

That’s because they also have a chance of going down though. As the system is with play offs for most of the season (in football and RL) most teams still have a chance of doing something, be it make the play offs or go down. A last week of the season win to stay up is often as exciting as winning something.  Take that away and people lose interest. Take the NFL, the later season games with the worst teams are often played in half empty stadiums. 

And some teams don’t have the threat of relegation in Rugby League, Football and plenty of sports out there. 

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3 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

And some teams don’t have the threat of relegation in Rugby League, Football and plenty of sports out there. 

Like I said though, with a P&R system most teams, for 3/4 of the season at least, are still either in with a shout of going up or in danger of going down. That keeps fans interested. I just can’t see that many other than the hardcore would be too keen on watching a team at the bottom when there was no threat of relegation, crowds would drop. You see that happen towards the end of the season in NRL as well as NFL, and probably other closed shop sports like baseball too. 

Edited by Eddie

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7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Like I said though, with a P&R system most teams, for 3/4 of the season at least, are still either in with a shout of going up or in danger of going down. That keeps fans interested. I just can’t see that many other than the hardcore would be too keen on watching a team at the bottom when there was no threat of relegation, crowds would drop. You see that happen towards the end of the season in NRL as well as NFL, and probably other closed shop sports like baseball too. 

And some teams seasons are over barely are quarter of the way in. It’s just the way the cookie crumbles. 

Crowds aren’t great now anyway, with P&R and Rugby League is mostly a hardcore. There isn’t a massive amount of tickets sold for regular season games as it is, STH’s take up the bulk of an attendance. 

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2 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

And some teams seasons are over barely are quarter of the way in. It’s just the way the cookie crumbles. 

Crowds aren’t great now anyway, with P&R and Rugby League is mostly a hardcore. There isn’t a massive amount of tickets sold for regular season games as it is, STH’s take up the bulk of an attendance. 

Teams seasons are never over with 1/4 of the season gone with P&R. 

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