Australia U23 v France

[Damien]

Remember in 2003 when Australia only beat England A 26-22.

[Number 16]

Ahem...

[Marty Funkhouser]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

Utter rubbish? Big words, so what exactly is utter rubbish? At least back up what you say. It being the week before the World Cup means diddly squat and anyone with a modicum of common sense would realise what that would actually mean.

It was not a full international and had unlimited subs and numerous replacements. It was a trial warm up game that wasn't taken very seriously as no one wanted to get injured, you know the week before the World Cup. It wasn't even the first choice team either. 

If you want be an apologist for one of the worst England performances on record then fine but it was a full side drawn entirely from the World Cup squad  against a handful of NRL first teamers , lot of fringe players , country players and a player from the French league. An international the week before playing Australia the World Cup not taken seriously, do you know much about the game ?? Steve McNamara was quite adamant about it.

Sam Tomkins (Wigan), Hall (Leeds), Ablett (Leeds), Cudjoe (Huddersfield), Briscoe (Hull FC); Chase (Castleford), Sinfield (capt) (Leeds); Graham (Canterbury Bulldogs), McIlorum (Wigan), Mossop (Wigan), Hock (Widnes), Farrell (Wigan), Sam Burgess (South Sydney Rabbitohs).

Replacements: Charnley (Wigan), Watkins (Leeds), Widdop (Melbourne Storm), Burrow (Leeds) Hill (Warrington), Roby (St Helens), George Burgess (South Sydney Rabbitohs)

[hunsletgreenandgold]

31 minutes ago, Number 16 said:

Ahem...

I too probably watch more NRL than SL so am also familiar with all these players. I think the issue I take in this thread and others is that we're 'way off' - when evidence suggests otherwise. As you stated yourself there's very little between them at first grade, England actually beat the Aussies at 'Schoolboy' level and haven't actually played at this Junior/U23 level to know what might happen. I agree the Aussies have some phenomenal young players and certainly at all levels have more strength in depth but best 13 v best 13 I think we're closer than we've been for a long time at all those levels. 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

7 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

If you want be an apologist for one of the worst England performances on record then fine but it was a full side drawn entirely from the World Cup squad  against a handful of NRL first teamers , lot of fringe players , country players and a player from the French league. An international the week before playing Australia the World Cup not taken seriously, do you know much about the game ?? Steve McNamara was quite adamant about it.

Sam Tomkins (Wigan), Hall (Leeds), Ablett (Leeds), Cudjoe (Huddersfield), Briscoe (Hull FC); Chase (Castleford), Sinfield (capt) (Leeds); Graham (Canterbury Bulldogs), McIlorum (Wigan), Mossop (Wigan), Hock (Widnes), Farrell (Wigan), Sam Burgess (South Sydney Rabbitohs).

Replacements: Charnley (Wigan), Watkins (Leeds), Widdop (Melbourne Storm), Burrow (Leeds) Hill (Warrington), Roby (St Helens), George Burgess (South Sydney Rabbitohs)

So based on England going on the week after to lose by 8 to Australia and narrowly losing the chance of a rematch in the final tell me, how did Italy's tournament pan out? And you still believe that was an England team going at it full tilt? 

[Dunbar]

Australia are certainly seeing a very good young generation of talent coming through.

Look at the Australian Schoolboys who defeated the English Academy 50-26 and 52-12 in the 2016.  Positions 2 through 5 were

2. Mawene Hiroti

3. Zac Lomax

4. Nick Cotric

5. Cambell Graham

Mawene Hiroti has only played six games for Souths but Lomax and Graham played in the comprehensive Kangaroo u23's victory while Cotric has made his full test debut today.

The English backline on that tour was Craig Mullen, Liam Walsh, Joe Wardill and Will Oaks, none of whom have gone on to cement first team Super League careers let alone international honours.

Fast forward to the 2018 series and the English backline was Innes Senior, Cameron Scott, Harry Newman and Louis Senior.  I expect all of these players to progress well in the game.  In a few years time this will be good for the English team.

[winnyason]

Well as expected france so disappointing. needs to change whole reason for catalans was to improve national team that has not happened. 

[OMEGA]

Cameron Murray 21

Payne Haas 19

Latrell Mitchell 22

Nick Cotric 20

could all have played for Australia’s under 23s but we’re instead playing against New Zealand in the senior Test match

This wasn’t even the best U23 team Australia could field

Now there’s food for thought!

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

If you want be an apologist for one of the worst England performances on record then fine but it was a full side drawn entirely from the World Cup squad  against a handful of NRL first teamers , lot of fringe players , country players and a player from the French league. An international the week before playing Australia the World Cup not taken seriously, do you know much about the game ?? Steve McNamara was quite adamant about it.

Sam Tomkins (Wigan), Hall (Leeds), Ablett (Leeds), Cudjoe (Huddersfield), Briscoe (Hull FC); Chase (Castleford), Sinfield (capt) (Leeds); Graham (Canterbury Bulldogs), McIlorum (Wigan), Mossop (Wigan), Hock (Widnes), Farrell (Wigan), Sam Burgess (South Sydney Rabbitohs).

Replacements: Charnley (Wigan), Watkins (Leeds), Widdop (Melbourne Storm), Burrow (Leeds) Hill (Warrington), Roby (St Helens), George Burgess (South Sydney Rabbitohs)

Ok so you can't back up what you say. You could have just said that.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

So based on England going on the week after to lose by 8 to Australia and narrowly losing the chance of a rematch in the final tell me, how did Italy's tournament pan out? And you still believe that was an England team going at it full tilt? 

Indeed, and he has the nerve to question others knowledge of the game.

[jim_57]

21 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

 

That's fair enough - so we all agree an England U23 side would be competitive against a full Aus/NZ side, right? 

Maybe, if they named an Under-23's I'd have a look and decide then. Not as competitive as that Aus U23 side would be against England or NZ I'd wager.

[Cowardly Fan]

On 25/10/2019 at 08:05, jim_57 said:

The problem is it is their full team because it's the best 17 they could obviously get to make themselves available. Shows there are some massive underlying issues in the French game as highlighted by Baitieri.

If I was England, NZ or Aus I'd be looking at this and wondering if it would be worth commiting to a test against them when come the week of the game they could announce a squad missing 15 of their top 20 players essentially making it a training run.

It's very damaging to French Rugby League in my opinion.

I agree it's damaging, but part of the reason for the dropouts is surely due to playing the junior kangaroos. If we treat them as second class we shouldn't be surprised if they don't treat it seriously either. That said there are clearly problems with the federation as well.

[Themusician_2]

18 hours ago, OMEGA said:

Cameron Murray 21

Payne Haas 19

Latrell Mitchell 22

Nick Cotric 20

could all have played for Australia’s under 23s but we’re instead playing against New Zealand in the senior Test match

This wasn’t even the best U23 team Australia could field

Now there’s food for thought!

France don't have enough pro players the game is basically amateur in France that's what this result truly highlights. Even with the 12 players missing I would still pick a junior Kangaroos win. No wonder the Aussies dont take internationals seriously.

[Damien]

4 hours ago, Cowardly Fan said:

I agree it's damaging, but part of the reason for the dropouts is surely due to playing the junior kangaroos. If we treat them as second class we shouldn't be surprised if they don't treat it seriously either. That said there are clearly problems with the federation as well.

They need to regain that respect in the first place. For too long have players shown little interest or pride in the French jersey.

[Cowardly Fan]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

They need to regain that respect in the first place. For too long have players shown little interest or pride in the French jersey.

They have a responsibility, but we do too. Why do they have little pride in the national team?

I'd argue part of it is what it is associated with - play second grade teams and/or in smaller stadiums. I don't think it's any coincidence their worse results have come in Leigh, and they have a negative impact. 

Imagine if their best players turned up and they had a close defeat or even a win, what would be the outcome? I doubt it would be a game against the full Australia team or England in a big stadium. 

[DoubleD]

5 minutes ago, Cowardly Fan said:

They have a responsibility, but we do too. Why do they have little pride in the national team?

I'd argue part of it is what it is associated with - play second grade teams and/or in smaller stadiums. I don't think it's any coincidence their worse results have come in Leigh, and they have a negative impact. 

Imagine if their best players turned up and they had a close defeat or even a win, what would be the outcome? I doubt it would be a game against the full Australia team or England in a big stadium. 

I certainly don’t agree with playing games in Leigh but that is certainly not the issue with France. There are much bigger, deep rooted issues at play

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Cowardly Fan said:

They have a responsibility, but we do too. Why do they have little pride in the national team?

I'd argue part of it is what it is associated with - play second grade teams and/or in smaller stadiums. I don't think it's any coincidence their worse results have come in Leigh, and they have a negative impact. 

Imagine if their best players turned up and they had a close defeat or even a win, what would be the outcome? I doubt it would be a game against the full Australia team or England in a big stadium. 

And they struggle to beat those second grade teams in smaller stadiums. They struggle to beat Wales et al in matches. They regularly get stuffed against the big boys. They have no devine right to be at the top table and frankly their performances do not deserve it.

They need to show pride and understand their obligation in developing the game in France. They certainly have not done themselves any favours over the last decade or more.

They could learn a lot from the likes of Tonga and their more skilled and prestigious players. Despite this and their status in the game they earned their way with their performances on the field and did the hard work against lesser opponents for little or no money. They are now reaping their rewards with more games on the bigger stage. The French players often act like a bunch of prima Donna's who's talent doesn't justify their actions.

[barnyia]

3 hours ago, Cowardly Fan said:

They have a responsibility, but we do too. Why do they have little pride in the national team?

I'd argue part of it is what it is associated with - play second grade teams and/or in smaller stadiums. I don't think it's any coincidence their worse results have come in Leigh, and they have a negative impact. 

Imagine if their best players turned up and they had a close defeat or even a win, what would be the outcome? I doubt it would be a game against the full Australia team or England in a big stadium. 

As there's only one club in France and most of them don't want to move away, they'll do everything they can to earn a living with the catalans, an injury or losing their place in the team could mean changing clubs which means uprooting all their family etc, for an English player you can change clubs and not need to move house, 

When they play for France it's often a 50 points loss or a game against a Scotland second team, so motivation must be difficult and they must think twice about the risk of playing in these games. Also the French players don't get much for playing for taking these risks and that's if they do get paid. 

[Hvy wg]

Some act like it wouldn't change anything if we were at full strength.

We played that match without a proper number 9 as Da Costa and Bouzinac were injured. Our best players were Bartes (a guy who came from Union 4 years ago), Canet, Marguerite and Séguier... Not one of them is in SL. 

Guys like Goudemand, Jullien, Garcia would be significant upgrades in terms of physicality and intensity. 

At this point, this is one of the best U23 that Australia has fielded against a selection of Elite 1 players. 

[Gibbo]

19 hours ago, Damien said:

And they struggle to beat those second grade teams in smaller stadiums. They struggle to beat Wales et al in matches. They regularly get stuffed against the big boys. They have no devine right to be at the top table and frankly their performances do not deserve it.

They need to show pride and understand their obligation in developing the game in France. They certainly have not done themselves any favours over the last decade or more.

They could learn a lot from the likes of Tonga and their more skilled and prestigious players. Despite this and their status in the game they earned their way with their performances on the field and did the hard work against lesser opponents for little or no money. They are now reaping their rewards with more games on the bigger stage. The French players often act like a bunch of prima Donna's who's talent doesn't justify their actions.

In fairness though France don't have the situation that Tonga have where in the last 2 or 3 years lots of New Zealand and Australian born established first grade NRL players have nominated for Tonga.

Without those "Heritage" players Tonga would be about the same level as France.

[Hvy wg]

To be honest, we should use the heritage rules. 

How come there are no Australian players with French parents in nrl, nsw cup and all that?

Why don't we use the foreigners that are in the elite 1? Even guys like Chisholm could be selected. 

[Damien]

24 minutes ago, Gibbo said:

In fairness though France don't have the situation that Tonga have where in the last 2 or 3 years lots of New Zealand and Australian born established first grade NRL players have nominated for Tonga.

Without those "Heritage" players Tonga would be about the same level as France.

That's not my point. My point is about the attitudes and commitment of the players.

[Gibbo]

45 minutes ago, Hvy wg said:

To be honest, we should use the heritage rules. 

How come there are no Australian players with French parents in nrl, nsw cup and all that?

Why don't we use the foreigners that are in the elite 1? Even guys like Chisholm could be selected. 

I would think there would be a lot more Islanders moving to New Zealand and Australia than French people.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

22 hours ago, Cowardly Fan said:

They have a responsibility, but we do too. Why do they have little pride in the national team?

I'd argue part of it is what it is associated with - play second grade teams and/or in smaller stadiums. I don't think it's any coincidence their worse results have come in Leigh, and they have a negative impact. 

Imagine if their best players turned up and they had a close defeat or even a win, what would be the outcome? I doubt it would be a game against the full Australia team or England in a big stadium. 

This is brilliant. Blaming the venue of a game for France being an absolute basket case of an organisation is sensational. What a post. Up there with the craziest on here, which takes some doing. 

France’s RL governance is a shambles. 

[londonrlfan]

France need to bring in some professionalism and a top coach. There's no reason why they can't be competing with the top nations.