Wayne Bennett: In or Out?

[GeordieSaint]

Just now, Dave T said:

We may have some issues with squad selection, but that ain't the biggest issue. Neither is execution.

It is clear as anything that tactically we are way off. It's a bit embarrassing.

I agree with the bit in bold. Said last week I am unsure about the use of Hill, Graham (would also include Hall even though I didn't mention it last week), and I massively in the camp of NO HODGSON in the 17.

You can now throw Widdop into the mix as well... (hope you enjoy him next year! )

[EagleEyePie]

Bennett shouldn't have been made GB coach to begin with. If GB is meant to be a standalone representative side and not feel like England under a different name then they should have had a different coach. Unless we turn this tour around drastically then he shouldn't remain at the GB coach.

As England coach he's done some good things, got the side close to the Aussies in some games but to be honest we're not massively better off than before. It's not like he's been a disaster though. My concern from these last few matches though is that things are starting to stagnate. He seems to be overly reliant on the same players even though they aren't at the same level they once were and seems to favour certain players based on their previous performances for England, yet doesn't afford the same luxuries to others. It almost seems lazy. I'm not sure how much Super League he actually watches, so seems to favour players he already knows about. Others get picked but seem to be expected to play in a different way.

Maybe it's just time for a refresh. I don't think the coach makes as much of a difference as the players but if the coach isn't necessarily picking the right players or planning ahead then it might be best to look elsewhere.

[Scubby]

6 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I agree with the bit in bold. Said last week I am unsure about the use of Hill, Graham (would also include Hall even though I didn't mention it last week), and I massively in the camp of NO HODGSON in the 17.

You can now throw Widdop into the mix as well... (hope you enjoy him next year! )

Isn't it interesting that his switch to full back in 2017 saw England become a much bigger threat? Maybe Widdop 1, Lomax 6 and Hastings 7 was actually the best formation?

We will never know because Blake Austin will be rolled out next week  

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, GeordieSaint said:

I agree with the bit in bold. Said last week I am unsure about the use of Hill, Graham (would also include Hall even though I didn't mention it last week), and I massively in the camp of NO HODGSON in the 17.

You can now throw Widdop into the mix as well... (hope you enjoy him next year! )

I've been really critical of Widdop for England, particularly in that 2015 series vs the Kiwis. I've never been convinced of him at Test level, I hope he is better at SL level. But I cant write too many backs off on this tour when they have to play in that structure.

Similarly I think the forwards did a very good job today. In that first half there was a stat which showed we had 10 sets in their half, and they were pretty much completing every set on their own 40. So whilst there is a good argument in bringing younger lads through, particularly in the forwards, we did fine for large parts.

When your attacking tactic is just to keep it in the forwards and hope something happens, it really doesnt give the players chance to shine. So far our two tries have been forwards bashing their way over.

They made a huge mistake just making Bennett the manager, I agree with Brian Carney.

[Cheshire Setter]

1 hour ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Oh christ, am I gonna have to dig out that box of 'Radford out' t-shirts I had printed up and cross out the name now?? 

If Warrington have a bad season next year you could easily scribble over the 'd' with a 'tch' and still make a profit. 

[DavidM]

I’ve seen the merits of Wayne but I want to be entertained as well as see the grunt and physicality ! Play rugby ffs .International rugby is the pinnacle - people see it on terrestrial telly . I don’t want to watch stats driven conservative stuff that might look good on a sheet showing low errors , forward drives and high completions etc if it’s utterly tedious and leads to nothing . I love the NRL but it’s the one big downer , they’re utterly obsessed with all this . That’s not our game and Wayne is infecting us with this non style of playing and the players  look shackled by it . We need freeing up . In SL we offload snd link forwards and backs , Aussies mention the more open style ... where’s that ? We’re churning out the opposite . Were oozing out points like getting the last bit of toothpaste out the tube . Sorry folk don’t want to watch that on the beeb with a big prospective audience . I thought we were doing ok but this has been a right slap in the chops with a wet haddock . Too boring and this kiwi team looks  average so it tells us where we are right now 

[Chris22]

Given that Bennett is this year acting as GB coach, we cannot really sack him as England coach for poor performances this year, no matter how bad. As technically they are different entities, although in reality they are not. I imagine that if / when Britain reappear again, Bennett will not be the coach of England by that point either.

What Bennett has done is improve our defence, we conceded an average of 2 tries per match against Australia in the 2017 World Cup, and are also averaging 2 tries conceded per game on this tour. That is a good defensive record and you should be able to win games with that kind of defensive effort.

The negative is that despite the fact that we can limit our opponents in attack, we do not have a sufficiently strong attack of our own to retort. It has taken us to the back end of matches in both tour games to register a try.

We desperately need some attacking impetus. The lack of wingers and centres don't help, although that is partly caused by injury. Selecting players like Daryl Clark more regularly is a step forward. 

Squad selection for this tour was highly imbalanced though. The number of half backs taken suggests that he doesn't really trust any of them. Conversely, the selection of 2 wingers only suggests that he believes McGillvary and Hall to be reliable.

I do not know if Britain / England have a specific attack coach, but if not, one is needed.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Whoever the national coach is there is constant calls for them to be sacked.

Wayne Bennett got us within 6 points of winning a World Cup and deserves another shot at the next tournament.

Now Tonga have beaten Australia our loss to them doesn’t look so bad.

We are missing a lot of players through injury and don’t have much quality depth, that’s not Wayne’s fault 

[DavidM]

15 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

We are missing a lot of players through injury and don’t have much quality depth, that’s not Wayne’s fault 

But how we play is 

[Scubby]

Bennett's Eng/GB test record so far is played 18, won 11 and lost 4

Versus Australia 0-3

Versus NZ 3-3

Versus Tonga 1-1

So 4 wins from 11 against those 3 countries.

Tonga's record over the same period is 3 wins from 6 (NZ 1-1, Eng/GB 1-1, Australia 1-1) 

[graveyard johnny]

bennett sending blake Austin to be measured up for  Velcro gloves and lead boots as we speak

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Very uninspiring performances both games. Nowhere near enough questions asked of the opposition defence with far too much one out stuff. Forgot Jake Connor was playing today. He's one of the few X factor players we've got and he hardly touched the ball. 

Playing low risk, safety first stuff is fine if your players are all well matched with their opposite numbers, but Tonga and  NZ both had more X factor players than us who were able to create tries for them. We need to be greater than the sum of our parts to create more try scoring opportunities and beat these teams. A fresh approach from a more innovative coach is needed for me.

[Bring back GB]

Most overrated coach ever. Needs to go before he kills the international game 

[GeordieSaint]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

Isn't it interesting that his switch to full back in 2017 saw England become a much bigger threat? Maybe Widdop 1, Lomax 6 and Hastings 7 was actually the best formation?

Thought Lomax posed a threat most of the game today; but he wouldn't have made any more of a difference at 6 due to the lack of space the halves had until the last 10mins. I'd actually start with 1. Lomax 6. Williams 7. Hastings next week.

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I've been really critical of Widdop for England, particularly in that 2015 series vs the Kiwis. I've never been convinced of him at Test level, I hope he is better at SL level. But I cant write too many backs off on this tour when they have to play in that structure.

Similarly I think the forwards did a very good job today. In that first half there was a stat which showed we had 10 sets in their half, and they were pretty much completing every set on their own 40. So whilst there is a good argument in bringing younger lads through, particularly in the forwards, we did fine for large parts.

I've always been a fan of Widdop; but he's awful the last two games. I don't think he's being helped by Bennett's tactics (as he wasn't with McNamara's tactics in 2015, which were equally as dull) but his kicking has been shockingly bad as well. He's also been taking the wrong options every time, which is not good for a half back at this level. He won't be in the side in 2021 IMO so I'd be looking at William (or even Trueman) for the next game.

Agreed about the forwards. I thought (my perception) they were beaten last week by the Tongans but don't have that feeling this week. I did feel their impact was negated to some extent by the referees willingness to let the Kiwis get away with murder messing around at the play the ball. But I really don't like Bennett's tactics of using them in strong positions on the field later in the tackle count... utterly dull and frankly quite easy for the defence to defend against.

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, DavidM said:

But how we play is 

Indeed. Too much training and not enough rehearsing and practicing. The coach lagely dictates the way we play given the players he has chosen.  

[Damien]

Its certainly time for a change and a UK based coach again. The team generally needs a clear out too to build for the World Cup. The likes of Hall and McGillvary didn't deserve to be picked on form and look to be getting past it now, both would have taken their opportunities and scored tries a few years ago. The likes have James Graham need to be moved on too.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Before this tour i said it should have been used to blood players. The performances we are seeing would have been acceptable in a tour used to blood inexperienced players. Sticking to the tried and tested and failing simply isnt good enough. 

Bennett is obviously a good coach, it is unlikely that we will get someone better. But we might get someone more suited to the position we are in because one thing is clear, whether Bennetts tactics work or not, these players arent good enough to win competitions with them. 

Im pretty ambivalent as to whether Bennett stays or not, but its clear that changes are necessary and that change should start at the very very bottom. We are in a bad place at the moment and we need to be looking at foundation 10-15 years in the future. We can't do much more with the players playing now than fire fighting. 

I'm not convinced it is quite as bad as that. We have been pretty close to getting a result in both games despite one out rugby.

We have some exciting talent, but we cant really judge Lomax, Hardaker, Connor, Clark etc on this your when they are treated like 2nd class squad members.

We have the foundation of a decent team, particularly when you consider the other results at the moment, but we are at risk of undoing this with poor planning (mid-year and warm-up games) and an NRL centric coach who looks past his best at international level with players he doesnt know.

I still dont think we are far off, and we need an outstanding 2020 to lead into World Cup year.

[Damien]

45 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not convinced it is quite as bad as that. We have been pretty close to getting a result in both games despite one out rugby.

We have some exciting talent, but we cant really judge Lomax, Hardaker, Connor, Clark etc on this your when they are treated like 2nd class squad members.

We have the foundation of a decent team, particularly when you consider the other results at the moment, but we are at risk of undoing this with poor planning (mid-year and warm-up games) and an NRL centric coach who looks past his best at international level with players he doesnt know.

I still dont think we are far off, and we need an outstanding 2020 to lead into World Cup year.

This is part of the trouble with Bennett. They are treated like that because they don't play in the NRL. I really doubt how much Super League a busy coach like Bennett watches.

[MatthewWoody]

I think he's gonna change both the halves. Austin in, maybe?

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I think as well we need to look at the players we are 'blooding' Lomax is 29, Hardaker 28, Connor 25, Clark 26, Jones 26, Philbin i think was the youngest today at 24. Compare that with Australia calling up Murray and Cotric and Haas and Mitchell, NZ playing Nikora, Isaako, Manu, 

This isnt a young team, this is a squad at the peak of its ability. Players arent going to make a big step up as they reach their late 20s. These are veterans. This squad isnt making a huge jump in quality, it is as good as its performances are. 

We need a two track system here, the WC and ashes coming up to it are too important to make wholesale changes but we need to be not only looking to 2025 but further than that. 

Whilst I agree with the gist of what you are saying England should have been looking to 2021 from 2017 and looking to develop the squad with that in mind. A GB tour and year with no England game and things like O'Loughlin, Graham, Hill etc still getting picked shouldn't have been part of that. England should be looking to really step up its preparations this year with 2021 in mind because we are running out of time.

[JohnM]

The thing he needs to do, in my view, is to work on the way the team plays. No use having a quick play the the ball if everyone else is moving from a standing start. Forward movement, fast running AHB, etc. Play like St Helens!!! 

[Oxford]

Bennets assessment made perfect sense.

I think that what looks like a poor performance is just dull as dishwater.

The way Tonga have posed so many questions has highlighted this and contrasts with GB only too starkly.

 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Lets not let the fantastic result of Tonga today cloud how bad we have been. Australia played poorly and still should have won. We shouldnt have been in with a shout. 

I honestly can't see this side beating Australia. We just arent good enough going forward, and in fairness to Bennett these problems precede him. But the fact is, take out the Denver test against a largely 2nd string NZ side and we (and lets be honest, GB and England are pretty much the same) have scored more than 20 points, against tier 1 sides twice in the last 10 years 

We are where we are. We seem to be going backwards rather than forwards. We arent a terrible team, we will beat New Zealand about half the time. Tonga have shown they are more than a match for us, Australia, as always, are better than us but will we will over-perform from time to time. 

But where we should be playing catchup the NRL is professionalising and improving at a faster rate than we are. The way we are 'hanging in' on games and making them competitive is going to see diminishing returns. 

This tour should serve as a wake up call for our development of players from the very earliest ages up, and act as a catalyst for the prioritisation of expanding the game and youth development because while we hope this Tongan dream is a temporary blip, its probably more likely right now that instead of us over-taking them again, we get overtaken by some of the other pacific nations. 

I disagree it's that drastic, and for me it is clear that the players have been hampered by Bennet's tactics rather than the other way round.

[Themusician_2]

The fact that this question is being asked shows that people know that GB is basically England

[Rupert Prince]

10 hours ago, Spidey said:

He’s just not kicked on after the World Cup final, gone backwards in fact. Need new coach quickly and use next years game as a platform for the next World Cup (as this year should have been without GB)

Will this new coach produce a raft of fresh internationals to test all the new players that are suddenly going to transform our results.  

Has Mal Meninga resigned yet?

Our star prop retired on the eve of this tour and his replacement lasted 5 minutes in the first game. Suddenly our pack looks a bit thin. This is not the fault of the (any) coach.