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Far reaching consequences of Tongas victory over the Kangaroos ?


Yosser

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 Tony Collins is suggesting huge change will come as a result of Tonga's win. Which coming from an academic surprises me, but I hope he is right. 

“It’s the biggest upset in the history of international rugby league without a doubt,” says Collins. One profound impact of the victory according to Collins will be striking a decisive blow against rugby union’s stranglehold on Pacific Islander hearts and minds.

Tonga’s rise has meant for the first time international rugby league is challenging State of Origin as the premier form of the game. “Origin has always been the pinnacle but the passion generated by the Pacific nations is now equivalent,” Collins says.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/nov/06/rugby-leagues-pacific-revolution-goes-global-after-tongan-triumph

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9 minutes ago, Yosser said:

 Tony Collins is suggesting huge change will come as a result of Tonga's win. Which coming from an academic surprises me, but I hope he is right. 

“It’s the biggest upset in the history of international rugby league without a doubt,” says Collins. One profound impact of the victory according to Collins will be striking a decisive blow against rugby union’s stranglehold on Pacific Islander hearts and minds.

Tonga’s rise has meant for the first time international rugby league is challenging State of Origin as the premier form of the game. “Origin has always been the pinnacle but the passion generated by the Pacific nations is now equivalent,” Collins says.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/nov/06/rugby-leagues-pacific-revolution-goes-global-after-tongan-triumph

It's a nice article with some very positive thoughts on the future development of Rugby League in the South Pacific.

But to suggest that it was the biggest upset in the history of international Rugby League is to use a certain degree of poetic licence.

When you look at the Tongan selection, you can appreciate how strong and competitive they are. It isn't a major shock for them to beat anybody.

That small disagreement aside, I would love to see Rugby League become the major sport in the Pacific Islands.

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33 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

When you look at the Tongan selection, you can appreciate how strong and competitive they are. It isn't a major shock for them to beat anybody.

People seem to forget that, right?

Tonga are made up of professionals. Outside of experience and fitness, there is no reason why a team of professional players shouldn't be able to beat another team of professionals.

A couple of years ago, Cameron Smith was interviewed after a match against New Zealand. I don't recall who won but I do recall him saying that the two nations were equals. A blowout result every now and then doesn't change that.

The same applies to Tonga. They were beaten well enough by Australia previously but there were signs there. The important thing was that more matches were scheduled for them and they learnt from them. We all saw the result.

Keep playing games each year, keep nurturing Tongan talent and who knows what is possible?

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1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

When you look at the Tongan selection, you can appreciate how strong and competitive they are. It isn't a major shock for them to beat anybody.

Disagree. Bookies had the Kangaroos at 1/10 to win. 

It wasn’t a shock that Tonga would be competitive but to actually beat them is another matter. 

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1 minute ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

I agree.

How many people on here put a tenner on a Tongan victory?

Not many, I would’ve thought.

My thought process would’ve been ‘Yeah, they were good against GB but then again they didn’t score many and, anyway, this is the Kangaroos. The Kangaroos always win, the bar stewards’.

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The biggest change that was discussed here in Aus is the fact that there is approx 500k Tongans in the world, only 120k actually live in Tonga, the rest are either in NZ, Aus or US. There is estimated approx 100k Tongans in both NZ and Aus, all of who would have previously followed the Kangaroos or Kiwis, now will have aspirations from a young age to play for Tonga.

This can be a game changer, and I emphasis 'can', if done correctly. Almost 50% of the NRL is now Island players and when you look at all the junior rep teams they make up a significant amount. There is no reason that there cant be an ongoing production line of quality players into the Tongan, Samoan. Fiji, PNG etc into the future. 

I'm a proud Aussie and always want the best for us, and in this case the best is to have sustained competition. I want to watch the Kangaroos and hope they win, not expect them to win every time. I enjoy Origin as well, but the fact that a State competition in Australia is considered the pinnacle of the sport is not healthy, International matches need to be the priority for the sport to grow.

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id say the Tongan passion for National team is higher than origin the passion of origin is not what it was it now feels like a corporate thing when it once felt like a grassroots movement.

Balmain according to Wikipedia there is 100 000 people in Tonga, 60 000 Tongans in NZ, 60 000 in USA & 25 000 in Australia. Thats roughly 250 000 worldwide. Well the NRL sure knows how to make a dollar finding a new revenue stream in NZ based Tongan Community, so Australia wins even when they lose, thats an Iceberg Slim move right there.

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7 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

It's a nice article with some very positive thoughts on the future development of Rugby League in the South Pacific.

But to suggest that it was the biggest upset in the history of international Rugby League is to use a certain degree of poetic licence.

When you look at the Tongan selection, you can appreciate how strong and competitive they are. It isn't a major shock for them to beat anybody.

That small disagreement aside, I would love to see Rugby League become the major sport in the Pacific Islands.

I think the importance of the victory should be the main message from that article, hearts and minds has been TGG's problem for over a century because we lost the propaganda war.

Certainly I don't think anyone expected a Tonga win just a good showing, and some of the sadly routine reaction of the Aussie pundits showed this.

So Martyn, which win was the biggest international upset of all time?

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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As others have said, I don't think this win is necessarily the biggest upset in International Rugby League but I think it is potentially the biggest result (as I said on the game thread).

However much we like to competitive games, the last 50 years or so has seen a three tier international scene.  Australia are at the top and England/Great Britain are tier 2.  New Zealand bounce around between the two.  and then the rest are the rest.

There have been some upset wins against England/GB and we had the Tongan upset against NZ in the World Cup but the thought of the Kangaroos losing to a team like Tonga would have been unthinkable even a couple of years ago.  This result changes the dynamic and shows the Kangaroos as beatable.

It is a bit of a shame for a historian to say that State of Origin has 'always' been the pinnacle of our sport as internationals used to be.  What I will say is that we may see internationals 'return' to being the pinnacle of our sport.  I think that is massively important for the game overall (however much I have enjoyed SOO over the years).  It won't happen overnight, especially in Australia, but this is a critical start.

And I see a public holiday has been declared in Tonga to celebrate the win... now that is impact!

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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"Tonga is set to celebrate the historic rugby league wins over Australia and Great Britain with a public holiday and reception for players next Friday.

Tongan government officials are set to announce a public holiday following the 16-12 win over the Kangaroos, by far the highest profile in the team's history."

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Disagree. Bookies had the Kangaroos at 1/10 to win. 

It wasn’t a shock that Tonga would be competitive but to actually beat them is another matter. 

This.

Especially, sad but true, England (a tram whose nation have a professional club league) haven't beaten the Aussies in ... A lot of years. ?‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

As others have said, I don't think this win is necessarily the biggest upset in International Rugby League but I think it is potentially the biggest result (as I said on the game thread).

However much we like to competitive games, the last 50 years or so has seen a three tier international scene.  Australia are at the top and England/Great Britain are tier 2.  New Zealand bounce around between the two.  and then the rest are the rest.

There have been some upset wins against England/GB and we had the Tongan upset against NZ in the World Cup but the thought of the Kangaroos losing to a team like Tonga would have been unthinkable even a couple of years ago.  This result changes the dynamic and shows the Kangaroos as beatable.

It is a bit of a shame for a historian to say that State of Origin has 'always' been the pinnacle of our sport as internationals used to be.  What I will say is that we may see internationals 'return' to being the pinnacle of our sport.  I think that is massively important for the game overall (however much I have enjoyed SOO over the years).  It won't happen overnight, especially in Australia, but this is a critical start.

And I see a public holiday has been declared in Tonga to celebrate the win... now that is impact!

I don't have any problem with Origin neither should those in charge of the game, inho.

We just have to give English players and public something similar, another "pinnacle". 

Test matches could and should be what Origin is for Australians. 

English, Kiwi and Tongan player don't have Origin? Well, let's make Tests "our" Origin. 

If this works, with Kiwis and Tonga able to beat the Kangaroos and hopefully England too, tests will be able to match Origin in terms of crowds, anticipation, etc.

 

Toronto Wolfpack Global Ambassador

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5 hours ago, Oxford said:

I think the importance of the victory should be the main message from that article, hearts and minds has been TGG's problem for over a century because we lost the propaganda war.

Certainly I don't think anyone expected a Tonga win just a good showing, and some of the sadly routine reaction of the Aussie pundits showed this.

So Martyn, which win was the biggest international upset of all time?

I would say the biggest shock result of all time was when France drew 15-15 with England on 28 March 1935 at the Stade Buffalo in Paris in the European Championship.

That came only a year or two after Rugby League had been introduced in France and came in the year following the formation of the French Federation.

For a group of players from a rugby union background to be competitive with England in such a limited amount of time would be unthinkable today.

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2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I would say the biggest shock result of all time was when France drew 15-15 with England on 28 March 1935 at the Stade Buffalo in Paris in the European Championship.

That came only a year or two after Rugby League had been introduced in France and came in the year following the formation of the French Federation.

For a group of players from a rugby union background to be competitive with England in such a limited amount of time would be unthinkable today.

Nice choice though I have to say the differences between the two sports were less so then than now.

But anything that reminds us of French RL history and potential is always good in my book.

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

id say the Tongan passion for National team is higher than origin the passion of origin is not what it was it now feels like a corporate thing when it once felt like a grassroots movement.

Balmain according to Wikipedia there is 100 000 people in Tonga, 60 000 Tongans in NZ, 60 000 in USA & 25 000 in Australia. Thats roughly 250 000 worldwide. Well the NRL sure knows how to make a dollar finding a new revenue stream in NZ based Tongan Community, so Australia wins even when they lose, thats an Iceberg Slim move right there.

If there are only 60k Tongans in NZ how the hell do they sell 20k tickets to Tongans for their games?  Surely not 1 in 3 of the Tongan population of NZ is going to the matches.  And I assume not many Tongans fly in for matches for economic reasons. Or are there more people in NZ of Tongan heritage that aren't counted in this figure?

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2 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

If there are only 60k Tongans in NZ how the hell do they sell 20k tickets to Tongans for their games?  Surely not 1 in 3 of the Tongan population of NZ is going to the matches.  And I assume not many Tongans fly in for matches for economic reasons. Or are there more people in NZ of Tongan heritage that aren't counted in this figure?

This one.

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36 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

This one.

This one what?

The number included figures copied from the blow up doll and cardboard cut out figures of TWP ?

And all I'm asking here is what are you saying?

image.png.0acb18bdf868e5af7c9bcc59aa80e28a.png

image.png.4b962298630ac39198f804a82af77fac.png

 

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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On 06/11/2019 at 21:19, Tre Cool said:

If there are only 60k Tongans in NZ how the hell do they sell 20k tickets to Tongans for their games?  Surely not 1 in 3 of the Tongan population of NZ is going to the matches.  And I assume not many Tongans fly in for matches for economic reasons. Or are there more people in NZ of Tongan heritage that aren't counted in this figure?

This is the correct statement, what Kiwi 13 6 is saying is correct but from what I heard on the radio they were including people of heritage as well.

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