Which NH country (excluding England) could potentially step up at international level?

[MatthewWoody]

The last great result by a European side (no Eng) is Scotland drawing with NZ.

[Tommygilf]

If Scotland and Ireland (even Italy and Lebanon) can get their best players out, France don't have massive off field issues and Wales aren't coached as if passing wide is illegal there is a core of a competitive tournemant there even with England in too.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

If Scotland and Ireland (even Italy and Lebanon) can get their best players out, France don't have massive off field issues and Wales aren't coached as if passing wide is illegal there is a core of a competitive tournemant there even with England in too.

Absolutely. As long as there's some incentive for the best players to make themselves available. If we'd have such a tournament this Summer which could have acted as a selection tool for the Lions, I think it could've worked really well. It is going to be hugely reliant on heritage players, but I don't have an issue with that.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Absolutely. As long as there's some incentive for the best players to make themselves available. If we'd have such a tournament this Summer which could have acted as a selection tool for the Lions, I think it could've worked really well. It is going to be hugely reliant on heritage players, but I don't have an issue with that.

Exactly. I'd scrap loop fixtures for that in a heartbeat.

[Wollongong]

All of the developing nations are slow burners... my guess at genuine development possibilities are... Greece.... Turkey... Norway.... Nigeria.... Cameroon and Kenya

USA, Canada etc will develop with North American franchises and conferences...

 

minimum 20 years before any of them really start to develop world class players 

[Rupert Prince]

On 10/11/2019 at 09:05, Damien said:

France is the obvious one but needs at least one more Super League team to do so. The governance if the game needs to be much better too.

Wales has the natural Rugby players and history to make great strides given a little investment, which unfortunately the game doesn't have. If again the game could fund two Celtic Crusader type clubs then the national team could become much stronger.

Being realistic that is just about it.  Wales and France.  

The Pacific Islands have the advantage of their extensive diaspora to a place (Australia and NZ) which hosts the games leading and most prosperous RL competition.  

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 minute ago, Wollongong said:

All of the developing nations are slow burners... my guess at genuine development possibilities are... Greece.... Turkey... Norway.... Nigeria.... Cameroon and Kenya

I suspect Greece could be competitive very quickly based on heritage players.

2 minutes ago, Wollongong said:

minimum 20 years before any of them really start to develop world class players 

If at all. One of the unknowns in our sport is what it takes and how it long it takes to develop world class players in new countries. All of the current genuine world class players have come through the NRL or Super League.

I strongly suspect there's a direct correlation between numbers of players from each nationality playing in those comps, and with the level of world class players each country produces. Do France have any genuine world class players at the moment? They've got some decent ones, but I'm not sure how good they are against the likes of England or Australia. Wales don't appear to have any outright world class players, otherwise they would've been selected for the Lions. And this is despite Wales and France both having clubs playing in pro competitions. 

I also suspect there's a direct correlation between the amount of earning potential in the various countries, and the amount of world class players playing in them. In any environment, the most talented athletes are going to be courted by loads of sports. Rugby league is therefore not going to be attracting world class athletes in these other countries, because there's no earning potential. Of the countries you mentioned, soccer and track & field will be pinching them before league can get their hands on them.

I'm therefore not sure if any other countries will become competitive on the world stage in my lifetime, unless they are relying on heritage players. If money does start to pour in to Canada/USA and they begin to massively expand their player pools, then possibly they may start attracting some world class athletes, but otherwise I just can't see it.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Being realistic that is just about it.  Wales and France.  

The Pacific Islands have the advantage of their extensive diaspora to a place (Australia and NZ) which hosts the games leading and most prosperous RL competition.  

By that token then so could Italy, Lebanon, Ireland and Scotland, as well as various others.

[RayCee]

I would like to see Norway take another step up.

The problem is the step from a few keen amateur clubs to a competitive international team is all but impossible without some serious investment. RU has always poured vastly greater sums into expanding the game but have had limited success themselves. 

Heritage players are a quick fix but how often does it impact on the domestic scene? 

[MatthewWoody]

26 minutes ago, RayCee said:

I would like to see Norway take another step up.

The problem is the step from a few keen amateur clubs to a competitive international team is all but impossible without some serious investment. RU has always poured vastly greater sums into expanding the game but have had limited success themselves. 

Heritage players are a quick fix but how often does it impact on the domestic scene? 

You can have both things.

Especially if locally you manage to produce players and have them playing in Eng/Aus to improve and then give back to the national team. 

[MatthewWoody]

37 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Being realistic that is just about it.  Wales and France.  

The Pacific Islands have the advantage of their extensive diaspora to a place (Australia and NZ) which hosts the games leading and most prosperous RL competition.  

They have local communities who actually care about the game, maybe because they are in Oceania so they're close to Aus/NZ, maybe because they don't excel in any sport as a national team so they engage with their strong rl teams. Maybe both. 

Not sure about the Scottish diaspora in England and about the relationship to their family's roots. But I can talk for my country and...the diaspora in America and Aus is very proud of the Italian roots (you can see they're almost always Catholic, etc.) so they support the baseball (USA) and rl (Aus) rl teams. But it's the support in the country of Italy that is hard to be raised; the typical target would be ru fans but they have a strong prejudice about this code.

But in terms of having competitive games, I think the likes of Scotland, Ireland and Lebanon can give England some interesting tests if they have all their heritage players, with Italy, Malta and say Greece slightly less strong but still able to compete. 

[stevevalerugby]

I think Wales will start to get better.  they have a group of young players from Super League and the championship plus from Australia i think over the next couple of years you will see a different Wales and hopefully one that can compete well 

[Rupert Prince]

5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

By that token then so could Italy, Lebanon, Ireland and Scotland, as well as various others.

I'm not sure there are a lot of potential Italian grandparents who were born in Australia. My point is that these heritage players live in RL-mad Australia and are familiar with the game.

I believe one of Gildarts grandparents is Italian and he would have qualified for the WC, but he declined because he hoped to be be selected for England. But the Italian diaspora is limited in Lancashire and RL is a minority interest in Europe. So he is very much an exception to a rule.

[Tommygilf]

34 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

I'm not sure there are a lot of potential Italian grandparents who were born in Australia. My point is that these heritage players live in RL-mad Australia and are familiar with the game.

I believe one of Gildarts grandparents is Italian and he would have qualified for the WC, but he declined because he hoped to be be selected for England. But the Italian diaspora is limited in Lancashire and RL is a minority interest in Europe. So he is very much an exception to a rule.

Italy have always got a fair few Oz heritage players. Tedesco and Vaughn were in the Oz team this year having previously played for Italy, but there's a fair few knocking around in the NRL, NSW and Qld cups, as well as the British and French games. 

Lebanon however are certainly a side that could add to the northern hemisphere opposition for England (even if an away day in Beirut isn't likely) based on having players in and around the NRL. Ireland and Scotland have predominantly Northern hemisphere based players but could quite easily get more than a sprinkling of heritage from the southern hemisphere too.

If we can make it pay through either a TV deal or an initial speculate to accumulate, a confed cup of say 8 northern hemisphere teams is possible. 2 years inbetween world cup years you could have two groups of 4 from (have mid season qualifiers for NA and lowest ranked European side) with a final and there's 5 weeks of fairly high quality international RL. I wouldn't be opposed to it running like the nations league for example with a top 4, second 4, third 4 and so on so that there is some structure and meaning to the international game up here. 

[jim_57]

On 14/11/2019 at 08:59, Yakstorm said:

Canada could be sooner rather than later... I mean the 5 year residency rule does make it a bit harder for a nation who suddenly gets a Professional Franchise to have a star studded team overnight, but with Toronto now in Super League and Ottawa set to join in 2021, maybe in 3-5 years time they might be able to pull together a more than competitive side between players who have qualified via residency, plus heritage players like Ryley Jacks (Gold Coast Titans), Rhys Jacks (Easts Tigers), Louis Robinson (London Skolars) and Cain Southernwood (Hunslet) in the mix.

If Ottawa does take a more 'home grown' approach as indicated, this could suddenly fast track a few guys, plus considering World Rugby appears to have forgotten all about Canada in their international plan, there is a lot of very talented Canadian Rugby Union players who could be very easily lured across to the code if we start providing the right opportunities. 

Just regarding this, I wouldn't have any issue with Canada using the Wolfpack and the residency rules to their advantage BUT..

Can they get the residency qualification for Canada by playing for the Wolfpack due to the Manchester/Toronto situation?

[Kayakman]

28 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

Just regarding this, I wouldn't have any issue with Canada using the Wolfpack and the residency rules to their advantage BUT..

Can they get the residency qualification for Canada by playing for the Wolfpack due to the Manchester/Toronto situation?

That is a good question Jim....say someone like Adam Sidlow who has been with the Wolfpack for three years now...it would be nice to have a better national team but it will take time.

[Man of Kent]

On 13/11/2019 at 21:59, Yakstorm said:

Canada could be sooner rather than later... I mean the 5 year residency rule does make it a bit harder for a nation who suddenly gets a Professional Franchise to have a star studded team overnight, but with Toronto now in Super League and Ottawa set to join in 2021, maybe in 3-5 years time they might be able to pull together a more than competitive side between players who have qualified via residency,

Do any Wolfpack players live in Canada then?!

[Kayakman]

4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Do any Wolfpack players live in Canada then?!

They all do for certain time frames and you know it.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

On 14/11/2019 at 13:34, stevevalerugby said:

I think Wales will start to get better.  they have a group of young players from Super League and the championship plus from Australia i think over the next couple of years you will see a different Wales and hopefully one that can compete well 

I disagree. Tonga have started to be really competitive because they have a nucleus of world class players. We've got some promising Welsh players in Super League, but nobody really world class for me. The reality is that any world class Welsh rugby players will have been snapped up for union before they can become league players. Now if a multi-millionaire comes out of the woodwork to form a new Welsh pro team and starts chucking silly money about Argyle style, then things would change very quickly. But that's a colossal 'if'.

[Man of Kent]

8 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

They all do for certain time frames and you know it.

Not sure of the rules but I don’t think visiting for a few days per month between April and September qualifies as residency.

[Kayakman]

3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Not sure of the rules but I don’t think visiting for a few days per month between April and September qualifies as residency.

Thats correct....so when you are coming over here Man Of Kent to try and become a Canadian citizen you will most certainly have to stay longer...you've clearly looked into IT though and that is the first step to becoming a citizen of the BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!

[Lounge Room Lizard]

On 11/11/2019 at 20:29, Mister Ting said:

I'm waiting for Germany to step up.

Never going to happen. Union has seen tens of millions pumped in and is still a game most Germans know nothing about or have watched one game. Football is king and then comes daylight to the rest like Winter Sports, Athletics, Basketball, Handball, Ice Hockey, Cycling and F1. The money needed to properly Developers Rugby League in Germany even to host a strong say 6 Team amateur Comp is simple not there or ever will be sadly. No Chance of getting money from Government as First not an Olympic Sport and secondly needs 10s of thousands of members to quality for State help.

[Tommygilf]

I don't know what anyone else thinks but that Great Britain team showed a bit of promise in some of the games this Autumn, maybe they could step up???

[JM2010]

After reading the thread about Greece I think if they can get their domestic scene in order they can quickly rise to be one of the top NH teams. 

7 clubs is a good base and if they get recognition and investment then I'm sure they can expand and increase the amount of clubs and players. Add to that the amount of heritage players they can call upon and they should be quite a strong team.

Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France, Greece, Italy, Lebanon and Jamaica could provide quite a competitive NH tournament.

England can continue to play the top SH teams outside of WCs with maybe a mid season international against the winners of the NH tournament.

Regional qualification tournaments could be played mid season to qualify for the NH completion such as European A,B, C etc, North America, Middle East/North/Central Africa. 

This would provide plenty of competitive fixtures for all the nations on a regular basis