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South Sydney director’s international blueprint

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29 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Should the NRL get a share of the Super League's Australian TV rights contract?

Should they get a bonus for all the Australian players, or even just players developed by the NRL and NRL clubs in general, that are playing in the RFL system?

Should the RFL be expected to invest into the Australian grassroots and Australian charities because they are taking money out of the Australian market?

Because using the logic that is being used to demand that the NRL payout the NZRL, the RFL owes the NRL a big check each year as well. They also owe the FFR XIII, WRL, Canadian RL, and maybe a few others, a good chunk of change each as well.

So basically be careful what you wish for...

Are there any Australian clubs in SL? No.

So it makes your convoluted point redundant 

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1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

Are there any Australian clubs in SL? No.

So it makes your convoluted point redundant 

It indeed does. Some of the Australians on here can never take any criticism of the NRL and the way it operates and it always makes these types of debate difficult.

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6 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Are there any Australian clubs in SL? No.

So it makes your convoluted point redundant 

It doesn't matter whether there is an Australian team in SL because his point isn't reliant on their being teams, it's about the NRL making money in NZ and taking juniors out of NZ supposedly without putting anything back into NZ.

You don't need a team in a market to suck talent out of a market or to make money in a market, lots of money in some cases.

There's nothing convoluted about that at all, and you are trying to move the goal posts so you don't have to address the logical inconsistency in his idea, namely that if the NZRL is going to get kick backs for money made in "their" market then everybody else is going to expect the same in kind.  

Edited by The Great Dane

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5 hours ago, Damien said:

It indeed does. Some of the Australians on here can never take any criticism of the NRL and the way it operates and it always makes these types of debate difficult.

I have no problem criticising the NRL, in fact 95% of the time I spend talking about the NRL is spent criticising it.

However the vast majority of the discussion about the NRL on this forum is either totally unfair criticism of the NRL (basically blaming them for all of the sports failures, even when they weren't involved at all) and/or insane ideas about how the NRL should be expected to basically bankrupt it's self propping up all manner of crazy ideas because 'they can afford it' and "it's for the good of the game".

A large majority of that discussion about the NRL also comes off simply as vindictive rants, it's always about getting something out of the NRL (normally money or players) to prop some other disparate part of the game. In other words it's always about tearing the NRL down to the rest of the games level instead of building the rest of the games up to the NRL's level.

It reminds me of how a lot of the older fans and even the odd member of the old boys group in Sydney used to talk about the Raiders and Broncos in the early 90s before SL. In short it was all about ways to split their teams apart and punishing them for being successful. 

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NRL does not run any programs in NZ on an ongoing annual basis it does in Australia and also gives 38 million per year in grants to Australian State leagues. I like the NRL's product more than the Fast food chain you mentioned but at least that fast food chain gives back even a small % of profits to assist sick children and there families in the community. Good will is everything in the sports entertainment industry and a charitable trust could be set up in NZ by the NRL to give back some small % to communities that support the game.  Even NRL Indigenous round totally misses the point in NZ a large percentage of NZ Warriors fans, players and staff are Maori. 

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4 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

NRL does not run any programs in NZ on an ongoing annual basis it does in Australia and also gives 38 million per year in grants to Australian State leagues.

What do you mean by programs?

I've shown where you can find out about the NRL's charitable work and you've ignored it, and surely you aren't suggesting that the Warriors don't run juniors/development programs (other clubs have done stuff in NZ on occasion as well BTW), because if you are that again is you just choosing to ignore that.

The programs exist you are just refusing to acknowledge their existence.

You're also ignoring all the development work that every NRL club does when they develop Kiwi players, and I remind you again that they are the only RL organisations doing that work and that without them doing it RL would be effectively dead in NZ by now, and every professional RL player from NZ (with the exception of some of those that were raised in Australia) would either be professional RU players or not have had an opportunity to play pro-sport if it wasn't for the NRL. In other words without the NRL doing what it does in NZ then RL would be a tiny minority sport in NZ, and the RL community in NZ would be equivalent to other tiny minority sports such as Handball or Lacrosse.And what greater charity could their be that the NRL could give the NZ RL community then literally propping RL in the country by feeding it with professional player and super stars?

4 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

I like the NRL's product more than the Fast food chain you mentioned but at least that fast food chain gives back even a small % of profits to assist sick children and there families in the community. Good will is everything in the sports entertainment industry and a charitable trust could be set up in NZ by the NRL to give back some small % to communities that support the game. 

They already are giving back a small percentage, you are just choosing to ignore it!

https://www.warriors.kiwi/community/charity-partners/

https://www.nrl.com/community/

4 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Even NRL Indigenous round totally misses the point in NZ a large percentage of NZ Warriors fans, players and staff are Maori. 

Look, I agree that the NRL should't have a mandatory Indigenous Round (they shouldn't have mandatory rounds for anything, especially things that are political and/or divisive), but to suggest that the NRL shouldn't have an Indigenous Round because it focuses on indigenous Australians and not Maori, or that to focus on indigenous Australians and not Maori is somehow offensive to Maori, is just irrational.

For one thing the Maori are indigenous peoples (to New Zealand obviously), and more importantly the NRL is an Australian competition where all but one of the clubs is based in Australia, so of course any "indigenous" programs are going to be focused mainly Indigenous Australians.

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2 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

They already are giving back a small percentage, you are just choosing to ignore it!

https://www.warriors.kiwi/community/charity-partners/

https://www.nrl.com/community/

Look, I agree that the NRL should't have a mandatory Indigenous Round (they shouldn't have mandatory rounds for anything, especially things that are political and/or divisive), but to suggest that the NRL shouldn't have an Indigenous Round because it focuses on indigenous Australians and not Maori, or that to focus on indigenous Australians and not Maori is somehow offensive to Maori, is just irrational.

For one thing the Maori are indigenous peoples (to New Zealand obviously), and more importantly the NRL is an Australian competition where all but one of the clubs is based in Australia, so of course any "indigenous" programs are going to be focused mainly Indigenous Australians.

The 1st link above is the NZ warriors organisation charity partners that they give time and money an NZ based sports team giving its own time and money to other kiwis without direct involvement of the NRL.

The 2nd link has no mention of any NRL activities/initiatives/course/events that take place in NZ.

My point on the NRL indigenous round needs to include Maori as the indigenous people of NZ as the NZ Warriors are part of the competition and often play a home game in NZ that round and a large percentage of Warriors Fans/players/staff are Maori. The Warriors do there bit usually have a Maori themed jersey for that round but the NRL forgets it also operates in NZ.

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10 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

It doesn't matter whether there is an Australian team in SL because his point isn't reliant on their being teams, it's about the NRL making money in NZ and taking juniors out of NZ supposedly without putting anything back into NZ.

You don't need a team in a market to suck talent out of a market or to make money in a market, lots of money in some cases.

There's nothing convoluted about that at all, and you are trying to move the goal posts so you don't have to address the logical inconsistency in his idea, namely that if the NZRL is going to get kick backs for money made in "their" market then everybody else is going to expect the same in kind.  

It’s highly relevant despite your assertions. 

Lets take a comparison to SL. Currently SL subsidises Catalans, as their TV deal (which has just ended) covered the costs but didn’t directly contribute additional revenue to SL. However, if Toulouse joined and they were able to secure a revenue generating tv deal from French broadcasters, then it would only be just that SL re-invested that money into developing the French game. The whole game, and particularly the key stakeholders at the top, have a duty of care to take a holistic approach to ensuring the game supports the many, not just the few it chooses.

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On 01/12/2019 at 20:29, kiwis 13 6 said:

The 1st link above is the NZ warriors organisation charity partners that they give time and money an NZ based sports team giving its own time and money to other kiwis without direct involvement of the NRL.

The Warriors act as representatives of the NRL in NZ, they also exist at the NRL's whim.

Everything they do they do as a representative of the NRL.

On 01/12/2019 at 20:29, kiwis 13 6 said:

The 2nd link has no mention of any NRL activities/initiatives/course/events that take place in NZ.

If you were willing to trawl the news part of that website you probably would find mention of the stuff in NZ, but that's not the point of the link, the point is to point you in the direction of where to ask them about what they do in NZ. 

BTW, I know for a fact that at least a couple of those programs, particularly Voice Against Violence, run/have run programs in the PI's, and I'd be willing to bet they've been in NZ as well and you just haven't heard about it.

On 01/12/2019 at 20:29, kiwis 13 6 said:

My point on the NRL indigenous round needs to include Maori as the indigenous people of NZ as the NZ Warriors are part of the competition and often play a home game in NZ that round and a large percentage of Warriors Fans/players/staff are Maori. The Warriors do there bit usually have a Maori themed jersey for that round but the NRL forgets it also operates in NZ.

As you just said yourself it already does include Maori.

You do realise that the jerseys, charity work, and the indigenous theme/representation on game days (most of which is organised by the clubs) is pretty much all that goes into Indigenous round right?!

I mean what the Warriors are doing for indigenous round in NZ is exactly what is happening over here, so I'm not sure what more would you want them or the NRL to do?

 

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On 01/12/2019 at 20:31, DoubleD said:

It’s highly relevant despite your assertions. 

Lets take a comparison to SL. Currently SL subsidises Catalans, as their TV deal (which has just ended) covered the costs but didn’t directly contribute additional revenue to SL. However, if Toulouse joined and they were able to secure a revenue generating tv deal from French broadcasters, then it would only be just that SL re-invested that money into developing the French game. The whole game, and particularly the key stakeholders at the top, have a duty of care to take a holistic approach to ensuring the game supports the many, not just the few it chooses.

Mate you are very, very confused...

The NRL already subsidises the Warriors, in fact it subsidises all of the NRL clubs through grants (even when they are profitable), and a portion of those grants are earmarked for the grassroots and junior development, i.e. to be re-invested into the local game, in the Warriors case the Kiwi game.

Grants to the Warriors also aren't what is being talked about, they are a given and as I explained before already happen, what's being suggested is that the NRL should give the NZRL a grant out of the net profit that the NRL makes in NZ (specifically out of the NZ broadcasting rights).

So to give you a hypothetical equivalent of what is being suggested using the RFL and FFR XII, imagine if the RFL was expected to give the FFR XIII a percentage of every pound they made in France, even though the FFR XIII isn't institutionally connected to the RFL and didn't have anything to do with the process of actually making that money, they just get a cut because they are from France and France is 'their market'.

Making money in a market doesn't require there to be a club in the market, it only requires that people from that market spend money on the product. So even though the RFL doesn't have an Australian club, it does make money in Australia, so if the RFL is being held to the same standards that are being expected of the NRL in this case, then the RFL would owe the NRL a percentage of that money.

If you add in what has been subtly suggested earlier: that extra should be given for all the players that from NZ in the NRL, then the RFL would owe the NRL a very big check.

Edited by The Great Dane

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3 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Mate you are very, very confused...

The NRL already subsidises the Warriors, in fact it subsidises all of the NRL clubs through grants (even when they are profitable), and a portion of those grants are earmarked for the grassroots and junior development, i.e. to be re-invested into the local game, in the Warriors case the Kiwi game.

Grants to the Warriors also aren't what is being talked about, they are a given and as I explained before already happen, what's being suggested is that the NRL should give the NZRL a grant out of the net profit that the NRL makes in NZ.

So to give you a hypothetical equivalent of what is being suggested using the RFL and FFR XII, imagine if the RFL was expected to give the FFR XIII a percentage of every pound they made in France, even though the FFR XIII isn't institutionally connected to the RFL and didn't have anything to do with the process of actually making that money, they just get a cut because they are from France and France is 'their market'.

Making money in a market doesn't require there to be a club in the market, it only requires that people from that market spend money on the product. So even though the RFL doesn't have an Australian club, it does make money in Australia, so if the RFL is being held to the same standards that are being expected of the NRL in this case, then the RFL would owe the NRL a percentage of that money.

If you add in what has been subtly suggested earlier: that extra should be given for all the players that from NZ in the NRL, then the RFL would owe the NRL a very big check.

I’m not the one confused..........my point was quite clear and my view is unequivocal from this

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1 minute ago, DoubleD said:

I’m not the one confused..........my point was quite clear and my view is unequivocal from this

No you are definitely confused, and talking about stuff you don't know anything about, because you didn't know that the Warriors are already getting subsidised by the NRL just like the RFL is subsidising Catalans, and since you didn't know about that, and assumed it wasn't happening, your unequivocal view is built on ignorance.

You also obviously only read the first line of my post as well. . .  But it doesn't matter anyway because you have a bad case of confirmation bias, and as such you are only interested in things that support your view that the NRL is a terrible organisation that is solely responsible for all the failures of the sport. So even if you did read it you'd ignore what it said, as you'll never consider a point where the NRL isn't either in the wrong or at fault.

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Good article. The argument about 'less is more' with NRL reducing to play 22 rounds plus SOO and Internaitional Football has got to be the way forward for SL.  29 plus CC and Play Off's is ridiculous in such a high intensity collision sport. The season should start in March giving ample time in the off season for recovery and skills preparation. How can SL clubs and administators sanction starting in late January?? Get rid of loop fixtures and create the space for a full pre-season and international football.

If marketed correctly 'less is more' is a valuable tactic because in SL ' More is definitely Less'!

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On 02/12/2019 at 16:54, The Great Dane said:

No you are definitely confused, and talking about stuff you don't know anything about, because you didn't know that the Warriors are already getting subsidised by the NRL just like the RFL is subsidising Catalans, and since you didn't know about that, and assumed it wasn't happening, your unequivocal view is built on ignorance.

You also obviously only read the first line of my post as well. . .  But it doesn't matter anyway because you have a bad case of confirmation bias, and as such you are only interested in things that support your view that the NRL is a terrible organisation that is solely responsible for all the failures of the sport. So even if you did read it you'd ignore what it said, as you'll never consider a point where the NRL isn't either in the wrong or at fault.

And breathe, count to 10 and have a little lie down. 

 I have a fairly neutral view of NRL, they do some things well and others less well. 

Now back to your confused state of mind. Can you provide the following for clarity:

• amount of money Sky pay in NZ for tv rights

• amount of money that Fox and 9 pay extra for having a NZ team in the comp 

• Value of any sponsorship deals directly or indirectly due to having a NZ team in the comp

Much obliged.

DD

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On 05/12/2019 at 20:05, DoubleD said:

And breathe, count to 10 and have a little lie down. 

 I have a fairly neutral view of NRL, they do some things well and others less well. 

Now back to your confused state of mind. Can you provide the following for clarity:

• amount of money Sky pay in NZ for tv rights

• amount of money that Fox and 9 pay extra for having a NZ team in the comp 

• Value of any sponsorship deals directly or indirectly due to having a NZ team in the comp

Much obliged.

DD

- The NZ NRL TV rights deal from 2018 -2022 is estimated at 18 million NZ dollars per.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/sky_nz_extends_rugby_league_deals

- NRL has sponsorship deals from all sources worth $26 million Australian dollars per year. Working out a % of that sponsorship revenue that is generated as a result of the NZ involvement in the NRL is difficult. Operating in NZ gives the NRL a reach into market with 5 million people and some NZ companies have sponsorship deals with the NRL.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/06/15/nrl-declares-money-will-flow-back-to-clubs-grassroots-after-posting-huge-surplus/

- there are also other revenue streams the NRL generates from NZ such as NRL merchandise sales, NZ NRL Radio rights, Event fees such as the amount NZ company DUCO Events paid NRL to stage the NRL 9's in Auckland. 

I estimate the NRL would be generating around $20 million AUD per year from NZ in NZ TV rights, NZ sponsorship earnings, NZ Merchandise sales, NZ Radio rights. The NRL club grant to the NZ Warriors is AUD is $12.5 million per year. An estimated $7.5 million AUD profit per year and the NRL has been making a yearly profit in the millions from NZ for the last 25 years.

To the best of my knowledge the NZ warriors players and staff are the only NRL employees based in NZ. The NRL currently does not grant any funds to the local grassroots game in NZ. NRL does not directly contribute towards any NZ charitable causes that assist the wider community. The NRL does not operate any ongoing programs in NZ to assist the grassroots of the game in NZ. NRL should start giving something back to NZ as this is responsible and sustainable business practice, creates a win - win situation and ensures goodwill continues. NRL could set up a NZ charitable trust and partner with who they like NZRL/Regional leagues/Schools/Clubs to assist and deliver Coaching, refereeing, administration, recruitment and development of juniors. I am 100% this would be greatly appreciated in New Zealand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kiwis 13 6
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22 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

- NRL has sponsorship deals from all sources worth $26 million Australian dollars per year. Working out a % of that sponsorship revenue that is generated as a result of the NZ involvement in the NRL is difficult. Operating in NZ gives the NRL a reach into market with 5 million people and some NZ companies have sponsorship deals with the NRL.

None of the NRL's major sponsorship partners are NZ based businesses, they are all Australian businesses or the Australian arm of a big multinational. 

Many of those businesses have operations in NZ, or NZ arms, and maybe some of them see the NRL's involvement in NZ as a bonus, but none of them are sponsoring the NRL because of it's access to the NZ market.

22 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

I estimate the NRL would be generating around $20 million AUD per year from NZ in NZ TV rights, NZ sponsorship earnings, NZ Merchandise sales, NZ Radio rights. The NRL club grant to the NZ Warriors is AUD is $12.5 million per year. An estimated $7.5 million AUD profit per year and the NRL has been making a yearly profit in the millions from NZ for the last 25 years.

You've pulled that number out of your ######.

For a start you are ignoring all the costs that the NRL would incur in NZ, but more importantly, unless the NRL is recognised as a not for profit in NZ (which maybe they are IDK) you're also totally ignoring taxes. 

So for all we know the actual amount of money that the NRL makes in NZ each year could anything.

You are also assuming that the Australian RL organisations have made a profit in NZ for the whole time that the Warriors have been in the competition, which definitely isn't the case. But even if we assume that it is the case, most years the profit wouldn't be anywhere the sum that the NRL has made in the last few years.

22 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

The NRL currently does not grant any funds to the local grassroots game in NZ.

Because they can't because they don't come under their jurisdiction.

22 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

NRL does not directly contribute towards any NZ charitable causes that assist the wider community.

They have in the past and probably still do, in fact I'd be shocked if they didn't, and I gave you a link to where you can contact them to find out more.

So the only reason that you don't know about it is because you refuse to find out about it.

 

Edited by The Great Dane

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On 03/12/2019 at 21:29, kiwis 13 6 said:

Dane did a Kiwi ruin your Fish N Chips once upon a time or something? 

I've got no problem with Kiwi's.

I do however have a problem with people who feel entitled to something that isn't theirs.  

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On 07/12/2019 at 01:43, kiwis 13 6 said:

- The NZ NRL TV rights deal from 2018 -2022 is estimated at 18 million NZ dollars per.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/sky_nz_extends_rugby_league_deals

- NRL has sponsorship deals from all sources worth $26 million Australian dollars per year. Working out a % of that sponsorship revenue that is generated as a result of the NZ involvement in the NRL is difficult. Operating in NZ gives the NRL a reach into market with 5 million people and some NZ companies have sponsorship deals with the NRL.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/06/15/nrl-declares-money-will-flow-back-to-clubs-grassroots-after-posting-huge-surplus/

- there are also other revenue streams the NRL generates from NZ such as NRL merchandise sales, NZ NRL Radio rights, Event fees such as the amount NZ company DUCO Events paid NRL to stage the NRL 9's in Auckland. 

I estimate the NRL would be generating around $20 million AUD per year from NZ in NZ TV rights, NZ sponsorship earnings, NZ Merchandise sales, NZ Radio rights. The NRL club grant to the NZ Warriors is AUD is $12.5 million per year. An estimated $7.5 million AUD profit per year and the NRL has been making a yearly profit in the millions from NZ for the last 25 years.

To the best of my knowledge the NZ warriors players and staff are the only NRL employees based in NZ. The NRL currently does not grant any funds to the local grassroots game in NZ. NRL does not directly contribute towards any NZ charitable causes that assist the wider community. The NRL does not operate any ongoing programs in NZ to assist the grassroots of the game in NZ. NRL should start giving something back to NZ as this is responsible and sustainable business practice, creates a win - win situation and ensures goodwill continues. NRL could set up a NZ charitable trust and partner with who they like NZRL/Regional leagues/Schools/Clubs to assist and deliver Coaching, refereeing, administration, recruitment and development of juniors. I am 100% this would be greatly appreciated in New Zealand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the NZRL are a shambles.  the warriors have been a massive disappointment in the nrl.  they cant put together 80 minutes of football to save themselves.

the fact the ARL had the vision in 1995 to bring auckland in is why they make those tv rights.  and its not as if the NZRL can come under the control of the ARLC so your whole argument is nonsense.

if it wasnt for the ARL league would be semi pro in new zealand, it would be crushed by rugby union.

the best thing for rugby league in new zealand is for the warriors to have some sustained success in the nrl.

they have been a rabble for a long, long time

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