Dunbar Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 34 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said: I'll bring back on topic. Even though i've made clear I don't think this has any real legs, i'm happy to discuss what might be. I see him as a second row/Loose forward in RL. I think attacking he could play anywhere from LF/SR all the way through to wing to be honest, but it's in defence I think he'd struggle to adapt as a centre IMO. It's just about the hardest position on the field (after FB) to make defensive decisions and I just don't see how he could get up to a high standard to start there at SL level. I think we are underestimating the ability of top quality professional Union players to come over to League. There are plenty of examples of world class players who made the transition before Union went openly professional. And even there was a 'boot money' culture the playing and coaching side was completely amateur. And yet they development into top class League players. The gap is much closer now, in physical readiness if nothing else. As for the ability to switch defensively. The Union code is full of League brains transforming how that code is played away from the breakdown. Tuilagi's attach coach at Leicester is Mike Ford and his defensive coach is Phil Blake (ironically one of the finest attacking players of his generation). They will be instilling all of the same skills into the Leicester backs as League coaches are today. Of course there will be things to adapt to but a world class player like Tuilagi would be up to it. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Just now, Tre Cool said: You did come over a bit rah rah though to be fair with your gain lines and ball recycling or whatever you were on about I learned about Union so I could tell Union fans when they are talking nonsense. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdive Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Unfortunately he is injured more often than not, which is probably why Leicester would accept this deal. I think he has the skills to succeed but his body will prevent him from being on the field consistently; which will prevent him becoming anywhere near good enough of a player for the money they will throw at him. I can't see this as being money well spent. "At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmatrix Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Luther Burnell struggled and loozed way off the pace. Think he's had to trim down a heck of a lot 10/12kgs so tuilagI I'm guessing would need to do the same. I think he would do decent enough given time but at 28 and injury prone and a big salary will he have time. There is a few union players who would do well but the younger they move across the easier it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 11 minutes ago, johnmatrix said: Luther Burnell struggled and loozed way off the pace. Think he's had to trim down a heck of a lot 10/12kgs so tuilagI I'm guessing would need to do the same. Burrell was defensively all over the shop. I’m hopeful he will go better next year but he clearly wasn’t cutting the mustard. Think Tuilagi might struggle with the 10-metre rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Funkhouser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 On 18/11/2019 at 16:11, Southerner80 said: I have a feeling they will find some way to bring in more talent and still be within Cap or at least say they are . It just could get interesting a year down the line ala Saracens. Seems like they are juggling and cutting other players wages already... Toronto offering players around Toronto Wolfpack are offering round several of their fringe players as they look to create space on their salary cap. They have signed just one player, Sonny Bill Williams, since promotion to Super League. The likes of Ryan Brierley, Gary Wheeler and Greg Worthington are being circulated to other clubs. Meanwhile, half-back Josh McCrone has taken a pay cut to remain at the club. https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/off-the-record-rugby-league-rumours-and-gossip-190/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted November 20, 2019 Author Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Marty Funkhouser said: Seems like they are juggling and cutting other players wages already... Toronto offering players around Toronto Wolfpack are offering round several of their fringe players as they look to create space on their salary cap. They have signed just one player, Sonny Bill Williams, since promotion to Super League. The likes of Ryan Brierley, Gary Wheeler and Greg Worthington are being circulated to other clubs. Meanwhile, half-back Josh McCrone has taken a pay cut to remain at the club. https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/off-the-record-rugby-league-rumours-and-gossip-190/ Oooh, big news there. Like nobody else has ever done this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Funkhouser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 hour ago, TIWIT said: Oooh, big news there. Like nobody else has ever done this. Big news to Mr McCrone and his family I would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said: Seems like they are juggling and cutting other players wages already... Toronto offering players around Toronto Wolfpack are offering round several of their fringe players as they look to create space on their salary cap. They have signed just one player, Sonny Bill Williams, since promotion to Super League. The likes of Ryan Brierley, Gary Wheeler and Greg Worthington are being circulated to other clubs. Meanwhile, half-back Josh McCrone has taken a pay cut to remain at the club. https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/off-the-record-rugby-league-rumours-and-gossip-190/ If we had an increase to the artificially low salary cap everyone could keep their job and pay!....and other players would be added!....that is the idiocy of the current salary cap at work...it is doing the very thing it was instituted no to do!...no one can argue that it is beneficial to the players ...especially the regular Joes, and keep a straight face...this is ridiculous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Kayakman said: If we had an increase to the artificially low salary cap everyone could keep their job and pay!....and other players would be added!....that is the idiocy of the current salary cap at work...it is doing the very thing it was instituted no to do!...no one can argue that it is beneficial to the players ...especially the regular Joes, and keep a straight face...this is ridiculous! The salary cap is there to stop wealthy folk coming in and buying the title. This isn't Formula 1 you know, it's a sport that's overwhelmingly cash strapped. The lengthy Wigan run of titles stretched the credibility of the sport in England to breaking and the salary cap almost alone rescued it by giving some other clubs a chance. I'd love for it to be increased, the sport as a whole can't afford it though. If we, say, added 50% to it, we'd probably lose 1/3 of SL to bankruptcy in a couple of years trying to keep up and stay in SL. The only "winners" would be the club owners with deep pockets. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Oh, and I'll be moderating this thread at some point tomorrow to weed out the union dross. Help yourselves to self-edit before I do that. This is NOT a forum for whining at rugby union. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dixiedean Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Lord am I looking forward to next season. Who will be right and who wrong? At least we had summat to talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, ckn said: The salary cap is there to stop wealthy folk coming in and buying the title. This isn't Formula 1 you know, it's a sport that's overwhelmingly cash strapped. The lengthy Wigan run of titles stretched the credibility of the sport in England to breaking and the salary cap almost alone rescued it by giving some other clubs a chance. I'd love for it to be increased, the sport as a whole can't afford it though. If we, say, added 50% to it, we'd probably lose 1/3 of SL to bankruptcy in a couple of years trying to keep up and stay in SL. The only "winners" would be the club owners with deep pockets. An artificially low salary cap does not promote competition - it would seem that only St Helens has really figured it out - and only serves to protect the weakest clubs who struggle to survive year-to-year and consider finishing mid-pack a successful season. An artificially low salary cap keeps down wages across the board and discourages younger players from going fully professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, Celt said: It is a disaster though - it keeps the sport in the UK at an ever descending low level as its competitors pay athletes properly. Taking on board what you say, could we increase it say 20%, but limit the percentage of club income being spent on player salaries? I don't know how applicable it is but in the North American sports with salary caps around 50% of club revenues are devoted to player salaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 It is my view that Leicester and England will make him an offer that will keep him in union. They certainly wouldn't want the positive publicity that it would generate for Rugby League if a current England international switched to Rugby League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Celt said: It is a disaster though - it keeps the sport in the UK at an ever descending low level as its competitors pay athletes properly. Taking on board what you say, could we increase it say 20%, but limit the percentage of club income being spent on player salaries? Why is it a disaster? It keeps us within our means. Look at Bradford. We don’t have many (any) SL clubs grumbling that they have spare cash that they want to spend. Even if you did manage to stop that, you’re just going to make sure that the deepest pockets wins most years. No thanks. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayCee Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 A salary cap works well if all the clubs In a competition are not too far apart financially. Where it becomes a problem is when some clubs can spend up large but can’t because some much poorer clubs they play against would get left behind. The marquee player was introduced to stop all the best players going elsewhere for more money but it doesn’t address the problem of a large financial disparity between clubs. If clubs got most of their revenue from a media deal, they all would get similar funding. If a wealthy investor wants to get involved with the game, he really can’t do much with a cap in place. I can see both sides. My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/ It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course. It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 8 hours ago, The Future is League said: It is my view that Leicester and England will make him an offer that will keep him in union. They certainly wouldn't want the positive publicity that it would generate for Rugby League if a current England international switched to Rugby League. Inclined to agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 12 hours ago, ckn said: The salary cap is there to stop wealthy folk coming in and buying the title. This isn't Formula 1 you know, it's a sport that's overwhelmingly cash strapped. The lengthy Wigan run of titles stretched the credibility of the sport in England to breaking and the salary cap almost alone rescued it by giving some other clubs a chance. I'd love for it to be increased, the sport as a whole can't afford it though. If we, say, added 50% to it, we'd probably lose 1/3 of SL to bankruptcy in a couple of years trying to keep up and stay in SL. The only "winners" would be the club owners with deep pockets. Stopping people with money from coming into the game is short sighted indeed....sounds like communism to me. The sport needs a reckoning and a reset...this is the time. RAISE THE CAP!!!!!! (Hey, that could be Torontos' first real chant at the home opener?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunsletgreenandgold Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 There is a way to bypass the constraints of the salary cap and still have a very successful team - invest all these millions into player development. That is the long term solution for any club, rather than squandering millions on relatively short term contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said: There is a way to bypass the constraints of the salary cap and still have a very successful team - invest all these millions into player development. That is the long term solution for any club, rather than squandering millions on relatively short term contracts. You can plough as much as you like into player development but in the end what keeps a lad striving to become a full-time professional is being able to make a decent living at it. A low salary cap discourages this, hence the ongoing problems recruiting top-level players. "Show me the money!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 On 20 November 2019 at 13:58, hunsletgreenandgold said: I'll bring back on topic. Even though i've made clear I don't think this has any real legs, i'm happy to discuss what might be. I see him as a second row/Loose forward in RL. I think attacking he could play anywhere from LF/SR all the way through to wing to be honest, but it's in defence I think he'd struggle to adapt as a centre IMO. It's just about the hardest position on the field (after FB) to make defensive decisions and I just don't see how he could get up to a high standard to start there at SL level. Which world class centre's currently playing in Superleague would he struggle to defend against ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunsletgreenandgold Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, TIWIT said: You can plough as much as you like into player development but in the end what keeps a lad striving to become a full-time professional is being able to make a decent living at it. A low salary cap discourages this, hence the ongoing problems recruiting top-level players. "Show me the money!" The two should move up hand in hand. Better quality all round via player player development will lead to the cap being increased to keep these players in our game. The alternative is pay ready made players a fortune and increase the cap to allow this? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunsletgreenandgold Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 20 minutes ago, Davo5 said: Which world class centre's currently playing in Superleague would he struggle to defend against ? Do they need to be work class against a novice in RL? I've played both codes (not for a moment suggesting at the level Tuilagi has) and defending is completely different in the 2 sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 6 hours ago, Davo5 said: Which world class centre's currently playing in Superleague would he struggle to defend against ? It's not that simple. Sam Burgess played inside centre in union (the same position as majority of Tuilagis England caps) Burgess is a prop foward/lock in league. Put Sam Burgess at centre in the nrl he would get burnt left, right and centre and look very ordinary in defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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