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The fact that USA v Cooks got about 50 in the crowd and was streamed at 2 fps from Jacksonville isn't a great sign.

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RL in the USA is nearly non existent. In 12 years living here I am not sure I have ever met an American who knew that Rugby had more than one code.

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22 hours ago, Mister Ting said:

I wonder which pointless team you support.

And they wonder why people aren't so keen on them.

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On 23/11/2019 at 00:51, Chamey said:

The fact that USA v Cooks got about 50 in the crowd and was streamed at 2 fps from Jacksonville isn't a great sign.

TBF there weren’t many watching International rugby in New Zealand and they’re ranked World Number 1

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13 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

TBF there weren’t many watching International rugby in New Zealand and they’re ranked World Number 1

The second tier of RL in England is far better supported than its Union equivalent, must be a sign that Union is dying and League is on the up. 

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Being single, a day spent with my nephew is special to me, and on Saturday he dragged me along to Stoke Vs Wigan round ball borefest. It was mildly entertaining, in the second tier of course. Attendance was 22,530 as announced, which shocked me as this was a bottom of the table match up. Puts things in perspective for me. Our game has do much to do to penetrate the consciousness of the " many".

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17 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Being single, a day spent with my nephew is special to me, and on Saturday he dragged me along to Stoke Vs Wigan round ball borefest. It was mildly entertaining, in the second tier of course. Attendance was 22,530 as announced, which shocked me as this was a bottom of the table match up. Puts things in perspective for me. Our game has do much to do to penetrate the consciousness of the " many".

It’s pointless comparing RL to football, or any other sport to football. 

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19 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It’s pointless comparing RL to football, or any other sport to football. 

Not really...

The championship is like the 7th highest attended in Europe! 

So why can soccer do this but rugby can't??

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19 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Not really...

The championship is like the 7th highest attended in Europe! 

So why can soccer do this but rugby can't??

Here we go again, as Eddie said absolutly pointless comparing English Football to any team sport in the UK. 

Take Celtic and Rangers out of Scottish football and we are getting close to UKRL.

So your next question should be - if you go down the football route -  what are a team in a smallish city like Dundee & Dundee Utd doing wrong when their  crowds are slightly less than say Hull & Hull KR???

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2 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

Here we go again, as Eddie said absolutly pointless comparing English Football to any team sport in the UK. 

Take Celtic and Rangers out of Scottish football and we are getting close to UKRL.

So your next question should be - if you go down the football route -  what are a team in a smallish city like Dundee & Dundee Utd doing wrong when their  crowds are slightly less than say Hull & Hull KR???

My next question is how did football end up in this position and what can we learn??

How is Scottish football failing so badly and how do we stop this being replicated in RL

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Just looked it up and surprised that both Dundee clubs are in the second tier in Scotland a country with the population roughly equivalent to Yorkshire. So getting similar attendances to Hull clubs is okay really. But why is soccer in this great position? Can't be just hype and Sky. I remember my old man , may he R.I.P. telling me in the 40's Charlton Athletic got 50K plus at their games. A mystery.!!

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26 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Just looked it up and surprised that both Dundee clubs are in the second tier in Scotland a country with the population roughly equivalent to Yorkshire. So getting similar attendances to Hull clubs is okay really. But why is soccer in this great position? Can't be just hype and Sky. I remember my old man , may he R.I.P. telling me in the 40's Charlton Athletic got 50K plus at their games. A mystery.!!

Soccer is the world's biggest team sport, number 1 in the vast majority of the world's countries by quite some distance.  From what I can tell it only trails in countries where better sports got established before soccer came along.  The challenge for RL in the UK is how to compete with that without the means to entice well known RU players to come over which seems to have been how it managed before RU dropped their opposition to professionalism.

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2 hours ago, HawkMan said:

Being single, a day spent with my nephew is special to me, and on Saturday he dragged me along to Stoke Vs Wigan round ball borefest. It was mildly entertaining, in the second tier of course. Attendance was 22,530 as announced, which shocked me as this was a bottom of the table match up. Puts things in perspective for me. Our game has do much to do to penetrate the consciousness of the " many".

Stoke city are, historically, a fairly well supported team, who unless I'm mistaken had Stanley Mathews playing for them once. It's hardly that unbelievable that they can still attract decent support. Like Nottingham Forest I imagine (but haven't checked lately)

Or Sheffield Weds or United. 

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

Stoke city are, historically, a fairly well supported team, who unless I'm mistaken had Stanley Mathews playing for them once. It's hardly that unbelievable that they can still attract decent support. Like Nottingham Forest I imagine (but haven't checked lately)

Or Sheffield Weds or United. 

https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-championship-2019-2020/1/

NF 28k, Leeds Utd 35k.


My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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5 hours ago, yipyee said:

My next question is how did football end up in this position and what can we learn??

How is Scottish football failing so badly and how do we stop this being replicated in RL

Scotland has a population of 5.4 million, almost identical to the county of Yorkshire. Given the difference in size between the country and the county (result being Scotland is sparsely populated, Yorkshire is densely populated) you can not compare the two. 

Yorkshire is 4500 square miles. Scotland is 30900 square miles. So, based purely on distance, you would have to travel roughly seven times to see a team in Scotland than you do in Yorkshire. Therefore, an 8k attendance figure in Scotland is more significant/impressive than a similar figure in Yorkshire. 

The only comparison you can make is with the same region as it doesn’t have variables. So, football clubs in Yorkshire, with rugby league teams in Yorkshire.

4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Soccer is the world's biggest team sport, number 1 in the vast majority of the world's countries by quite some distance.  From what I can tell it only trails in countries where better sports got established before soccer came along.  The challenge for RL in the UK is how to compete with that without the means to entice well known RU players to come over which seems to have been how it managed before RU dropped their opposition to professionalism.

From what I can tell, that’s your subjective opinion. Likewise me saying it’s the greatest sport in the world, would be mine. You are in Canada, where Ice hockey is the biggest sport...an activity I’d rank somewhere near Kabaddi or cheese rolling, so your theory doesn’t quite work.

 

Regarding those asking the question, what can Rugby league do? It doesn’t need to look at other sports. You cannot replicate what other sports bring, as they are different. What both rugby codes could grasp, is what generates most interest in the codes...and that’s open, attacking, running rugby. And yet, both are moving away from this, with both being more attritional, more physical, more risk averse, more defensive. Garry Schofield couldn’t watch GB in that four game tour. 

The contrast in open play from 25 years ago to now is vast, and is the reason why it’s much harder for individuals to stand out now. Stars increase interest, make kids want to emulate them in the park, buy their jersey...so more fans, and more participants...sport grows. Neither code produces stars as the attritional nature of both means they don’t have the platform to become one. We just had a Rugby World Cup, not one stand out player. None. The talent is no different to say 20 years ago, but the way game is played is different, and the talent doesn’t get the chance to shine as they used to. I’ve said this repeatedly, an Offiah wouldn’t get the space to run riot now like he did when he played, likewise Lomu. They would get shut down much quicker. They’d have their moments yes, but far fewer that when they played, and as a result they wouldn’t stand out (and become stars) like they did in their era. 

RU has deteriorated as a spectacle for many reasons, bigger, bulkier players, less skill, less running etc, and another issue is the influx of Rugby league coaches making the game much tighter defensively. Making the sport harder to play, is not good. Turnstile defences, easier to run past people yes, but much more exciting too. Shaun Edwards gets acclaim for his work with Wales, and Wales are now turgid to watch. In football, Jose Mourinho is hugely successful, and his teams play defensive, risk averse football. Both codes of rugby are littered with Jose Mourinho types. Shaun Wane, only a diehard would pay to watch his team. 

The biggest question, if either code ever decides to look inward, is what can be done to make rugby more open and exciting like it used to be. Rangi Chase did a moment of magic about four years ago and was brought on Sky Sports News, it generated a modicum of interest. But such moments are scarce in a more attritional game. 44k play RL in England, that’s a tiny figure. Physically it’s an ultra demanding game to play...you need to be a gym bunny to get anywhere near a field for your own safety with the constant hits. A more open, skilful game is more enticing to most people. The Tony Collins podcasts address the increasing issues both codes are facing with the increasing demands on the body. I get that a Sam Burgess battering into people and doing all sorts of damage to himself is enticing to some who would like to do similar, whatever floats your boat, but you only need to see what generates views to know it’s skills that grab the most interest. Both rugby codes have gone too much in the direction of the former than the latter.

 

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5 minutes ago, DC77 said:

Scotland has a population of 5.4 million, almost identical to the county of Yorkshire. Given the difference in size between the country and the county (result being Scotland is sparsely populated, Yorkshire is densely populated) you can not compare the two. 

Yorkshire is 4500 square miles. Scotland is 30900 square miles. So, based purely on distance, you would have to travel roughly seven times to see a team in Scotland than you do in Yorkshire. Therefore, an 8k attendance figure in Scotland is more significant/impressive than a similar figure in Yorkshire. 

The only comparison you can make is with the same region as it doesn’t have variables. So, football clubs in Yorkshire, with rugby league teams in Yorkshire.

From what I can tell, that’s your subjective opinion. Likewise me saying it’s the greatest sport in the world, would be mine. You are in Canada, where Ice hockey is the biggest sport...an activity I’d rank somewhere near Kabaddi or cheese rolling, so your theory doesn’t quite work.

 

Regarding those asking the question, what can Rugby league do? It doesn’t need to look at other sports. You cannot replicate what other sports bring, as they are different. What both rugby codes could grasp, is what generates most interest in the codes...and that’s open, attacking, running rugby. And yet, both are moving away from this, with both being more attritional, more physical, more risk averse, more defensive. Garry Schofield couldn’t watch GB in that four game tour. 

The contrast in open play from 25 years ago to now is vast, and is the reason why it’s much harder for individuals to stand out now. Stars increase interest, make kids want to emulate them in the park, buy their jersey...so more fans, and more participants...sport grows. Neither code produces stars as the attritional nature of both means they don’t have the platform to become one. We just had a Rugby World Cup, not one stand out player. None. The talent is no different to say 20 years ago, but the way game is played is different, and the talent doesn’t get the chance to shine as they used to. I’ve said this repeatedly, an Offiah wouldn’t get the space to run riot now like he did when he played, likewise Lomu. They would get shut down much quicker. They’d have their moments yes, but far fewer that when they played, and as a result they wouldn’t stand out (and become stars) like they did in their era. 

RU has deteriorated as a spectacle for many reasons, bigger, bulkier players, less skill, less running etc, and another issue is the influx of Rugby league coaches making the game much tighter defensively. Making the sport harder to play, is not good. Turnstile defences, easier to run past people yes, but much more exciting too. Shaun Edwards gets acclaim for his work with Wales, and Wales are now turgid to watch. In football, Jose Mourinho is hugely successful, and his teams play defensive, risk averse football. Both codes of rugby are littered with Jose Mourinho types. Shaun Wane, only a diehard would pay to watch his team. 

The biggest question, if either code ever decides to look inward, is what can be done to make rugby more open and exciting like it used to be. Rangi Chase did a moment of magic about four years ago and was brought on Sky Sports News, it generated a modicum of interest. But such moments are scarce in a more attritional game. 44k play RL in England, that’s a tiny figure. Physically it’s an ultra demanding game to play...you need to be a gym bunny to get anywhere near a field for your own safety with the constant hits. A more open, skilful game is more enticing to most people. The Tony Collins podcasts address the increasing issues both codes are facing with the increasing demands on the body. I get that a Sam Burgess battering into people and doing all sorts of damage to himself is enticing to some who would like to do similar, whatever floats your boat, but you only need to see what generates views to know it’s skills that grab the most interest. Both rugby codes have gone too much in the direction of the former than the latter.

 

Best post ever.

The lack of open running rugby is holding both codes back, this is especially true for Union, but it still applies to League. Most fans want a balance between the biff and the open back play. Due to increased professionalism, games that were originally played by amateurs or semi-pros, are now suffocated by highly trained and fit defences.

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25 minutes ago, ojx said:

Best post ever.

The lack of open running rugby is holding both codes back, this is especially true for Union, but it still applies to League. Most fans want a balance between the biff and the open back play. Due to increased professionalism, games that were originally played by amateurs or semi-pros, are now suffocated by highly trained and fit defences.

Cheers. I’m not saying anything new, as I’ve read posts from people who have watched rugby league for 40 years plus and they have said it’s a different game. Phil Caplan (from the Forty20 podcasts on Mondays) has stated watching women’s rugby league today reminds him of what attracted him to rugby league in the first place, as they play it in a manner that used to be played by the men. It’s cleaner with no wrestle, ball recycled quicker, more lateral play etc. There isn’t an over emphasis on bulk/physicality, and play is less risk averse. The hits are there yes, it’s a collision sport so that’s expected (nobody is asking to take that out of the game), but the balance between the physical stuff and open, attacking play is better. 

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8 hours ago, yipyee said:

Not really...

The championship is like the 7th highest attended in Europe! 

So why can soccer do this but rugby can't??

Because it is by far the biggest sport in both this country and the world. 

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1 hour ago, DC77 said:

Scotland has a population of 5.4 million, almost identical to the county of Yorkshire. Given the difference in size between the country and the county (result being Scotland is sparsely populated, Yorkshire is densely populated) you can not compare the two. 

Yorkshire is 4500 square miles. Scotland is 30900 square miles. So, based purely on distance, you would have to travel roughly seven times to see a team in Scotland than you do in Yorkshire. Therefore, an 8k attendance figure in Scotland is more significant/impressive than a similar figure in Yorkshire. 

The only comparison you can make is with the same region as it doesn’t have variables. So, football clubs in Yorkshire, with rugby league teams in Yorkshire.

From what I can tell, that’s your subjective opinion. Likewise me saying it’s the greatest sport in the world, would be mine. You are in Canada, where Ice hockey is the biggest sport...an activity I’d rank somewhere near Kabaddi or cheese rolling, so your theory doesn’t quite work.

 

Regarding those asking the question, what can Rugby league do? It doesn’t need to look at other sports. You cannot replicate what other sports bring, as they are different. What both rugby codes could grasp, is what generates most interest in the codes...and that’s open, attacking, running rugby. And yet, both are moving away from this, with both being more attritional, more physical, more risk averse, more defensive. Garry Schofield couldn’t watch GB in that four game tour. 

The contrast in open play from 25 years ago to now is vast, and is the reason why it’s much harder for individuals to stand out now. Stars increase interest, make kids want to emulate them in the park, buy their jersey...so more fans, and more participants...sport grows. Neither code produces stars as the attritional nature of both means they don’t have the platform to become one. We just had a Rugby World Cup, not one stand out player. None. The talent is no different to say 20 years ago, but the way game is played is different, and the talent doesn’t get the chance to shine as they used to. I’ve said this repeatedly, an Offiah wouldn’t get the space to run riot now like he did when he played, likewise Lomu. They would get shut down much quicker. They’d have their moments yes, but far fewer that when they played, and as a result they wouldn’t stand out (and become stars) like they did in their era. 

RU has deteriorated as a spectacle for many reasons, bigger, bulkier players, less skill, less running etc, and another issue is the influx of Rugby league coaches making the game much tighter defensively. Making the sport harder to play, is not good. Turnstile defences, easier to run past people yes, but much more exciting too. Shaun Edwards gets acclaim for his work with Wales, and Wales are now turgid to watch. In football, Jose Mourinho is hugely successful, and his teams play defensive, risk averse football. Both codes of rugby are littered with Jose Mourinho types. Shaun Wane, only a diehard would pay to watch his team. 

The biggest question, if either code ever decides to look inward, is what can be done to make rugby more open and exciting like it used to be. Rangi Chase did a moment of magic about four years ago and was brought on Sky Sports News, it generated a modicum of interest. But such moments are scarce in a more attritional game. 44k play RL in England, that’s a tiny figure. Physically it’s an ultra demanding game to play...you need to be a gym bunny to get anywhere near a field for your own safety with the constant hits. A more open, skilful game is more enticing to most people. The Tony Collins podcasts address the increasing issues both codes are facing with the increasing demands on the body. I get that a Sam Burgess battering into people and doing all sorts of damage to himself is enticing to some who would like to do similar, whatever floats your boat, but you only need to see what generates views to know it’s skills that grab the most interest. Both rugby codes have gone too much in the direction of the former than the latter.

 

This DC77 person takes exactly like that Irish Troll Kerry off BBC HYS notoriety.

That's not a good thing by the way.

Edited by Mr Frisky

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8 hours ago, yipyee said:

My next question is how did football end up in this position and what can we learn??

How is Scottish football failing so badly and how do we stop this being replicated in RL

Scottish football crowds are, along with Iceland and Belgium, the highest per capita in Europe. Even without Celtic and Rangers crowds would be decent. 

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