Harry Stottle Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 18 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: I know! Toronto could have been up a year earlier, Hull KR won't have had the pressure of the home crowd same as Leigh the following season! Neutral grounds are the way to go as playing at home in a final doesn't seem to be all its cracked up to be. I like the idea of a championship finals day, but it would need commitment to being set in stone years in advance. Perhaps I'm biased but I think Headingley offers the best option currently in terms of accessibility and facilities, but could be persuaded otherwise. Failing that, I don't see how a stand alone final could be profitable if it were not at the home of one of the two teams - that may change if clubs with larger fanbases for whatever reason drop into the championship. Hi Tommy with due respect the previous years you describe were not Grand Finals they were an elimination play-off to a round robin fixture list of 8 clubs in the Middle 8's, being those who finished in 4th and 5th positions, the team finishing 4th had earned the right to host the fixture. If you insist on comparing previous years of Grand Finals in the Championship the game has been played at a neutral venue, the top placed club had recieved it's reward by way of having a 'bye' and only having to win one game to reach the final. The way it was done this year with Toronto - this is not a go at Toronto - having the abillity to lose a game and still retain home advantage including the final was ludicrous, and in my eye's seemed like a fabriction designed to give the Canadian club every advantage possible. SL, don't play by those same rules, why should the Championship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 A neutral venue in the country of the highest ranked team, then. Compromise. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dealwithit Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: They have to earn it first. Hopefully the RFL will have learned from the advantageous effect it has for one of the teams in playing the GF at their ground, without question the GF should be at a neutral venue. It’s not without question. Of course we can question it. If the rules are stated at the start of the year - fair game. What is not fair is changing them half way through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, dealwithit said: It’s not without question. Of course we can question it. If the rules are stated at the start of the year - fair game. What is not fair is changing them half way through. Completely agree Mr Dealer, but why change it from the format that has been used before, lets say for arguments the same two teams contested this years final at a neutral venue say Headingley do you consider it would have been less attended than the 9,000 or so that was in in attendance in Toronto? The last Championship Grand Final was held at this same venue in 2014 between Fev and Leigh and virtually the same attendance was posted, I consider the Championship to have a higher profile today than 5 years ago and I would have expected that figure to be increased on. Yes the decision was taken at the beginning of the season but in my opinion for one reason alone, it was still very fresh in the minds of the RFL of the Challenge Cup Wembley final the previous season 2018 in which Catalan took part in and the posting of the worst Wembley attendance by a good number since the war. Toronto and Tolouse were the two clubs expected to be contesting the Grand Final last year and being such I honestly believe that is why Rimmer ducked away from the accepted format of the neutral venue final which would have been over here, out of fear that it would not be very well attended, can you honestly tell me of any other reason why he should change the format? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 58 minutes ago, gingerjon said: A neutral venue in the country of the highest ranked team, then. Compromise. Why Ginger, it is the British Rugby League, I have attended a few Championship GF even when my team has not bepen contesting them, this year I was denied that privaledge because of the altered format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 34 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Why Ginger, it is the British Rugby League, I have attended a few Championship GF even when my team has not bepen contesting them, this year I was denied that privaledge because of the altered format. Rotate around each of the home nations then. Probably Northern Ireland's turn by now. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 minute ago, gingerjon said: Rotate around each of the home nations then. Probably Northern Ireland's turn by now. C'mon Ginge you are better than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: C'mon Ginge you are better than that. Yes, I was being facetious. But a neutral venue doesn't just mean "not the home ground of either side just so long as it's one that Harry can get to" Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 41 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Yes, I was being facetious. But a neutral venue doesn't just mean "not the home ground of either side just so long as it's one that Harry can get to" Not just Harry Ginge, but many others from clubs other than the finalists who have been involved in the comp or those who just desire to attend the game are being denied by playing the final overseas. I should imagine if your location is correct, that getting to live games is somewhat difficult for you, or maybe you could be one of those who would not attend a live game if it was being played in the next street, all along I have said that it is not right to play a final at the home of one of the clubs for which the result is much more than just another victory, each of the participants benefit greatly from winning that game, club loyalties/preference should not come into it for anybody with any level of fair play, the club finishing top quite rightly get preferred terms to reach the final, that should not extend to the final itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Hi Tommy with due respect the previous years you describe were not Grand Finals they were an elimination play-off to a round robin fixture list of 8 clubs in the Middle 8's, being those who finished in 4th and 5th positions, the team finishing 4th had earned the right to host the fixture. If you insist on comparing previous years of Grand Finals in the Championship the game has been played at a neutral venue, the top placed club had recieved it's reward by way of having a 'bye' and only having to win one game to reach the final. The way it was done this year with Toronto - this is not a go at Toronto - having the abillity to lose a game and still retain home advantage including the final was ludicrous, and in my eye's seemed like a fabriction designed to give the Canadian club every advantage possible. SL, don't play by those same rules, why should the Championship? How many points did Toronto win the regular season by? If you have a grand final between teams in 2 countries how can you have a neutral venue that will please anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Hi Tommy with due respect the previous years you describe were not Grand Finals they were an elimination play-off to a round robin fixture list of 8 clubs in the Middle 8's, being those who finished in 4th and 5th positions, the team finishing 4th had earned the right to host the fixture. If you insist on comparing previous years of Grand Finals in the Championship the game has been played at a neutral venue, the top placed club had recieved it's reward by way of having a 'bye' and only having to win one game to reach the final. The way it was done this year with Toronto - this is not a go at Toronto - having the abillity to lose a game and still retain home advantage including the final was ludicrous, and in my eye's seemed like a fabriction designed to give the Canadian club every advantage possible. SL, don't play by those same rules, why should the Championship? I do agree with you that the way that the "highest place team" was worked out does need some fixing and that is across the leagues. Losing in the playoffs should mean forfeiting the right to home advantage. In all fairness Harry I see the million pound game (as it is still being called now) as effectively a championship grand final to gain Super League status. On your specific SL do this so why don't the championship Question. I think it simply comes down to economics at the moment but like I say I think this could change. Simply put, there are not enough championship clubs that could guarantee between them to get enough fans to a neutral venue for a stand alone fixture. I don't disagree with merging this with League 1's Playoff final either. Perhaps if Toulouse are promoted we may reach that stage where there are enough well supported teams in the presumably wholly British championship to host a neutral final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 44 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: I should imagine if your location is correct, that getting to live games is somewhat difficult for you, or maybe you could be one of those who would not attend a live game if it was being played in the next street Used to be fairly regular, got less and less so the further I got from a rugby league team. Doesn't change what a neutral venue is though. Or its purpose. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 14 minutes ago, Scubby said: How many points did Toronto win the regular season by? If you have a grand final between teams in 2 countries how can you have a neutral venue that will please anyone? If Toronto won the regular season by one point or 100 points what has that got to with anything? We have a top 5 play-off system that enables two teams to contest the last game. In the case of North America there are no other notable centre's that could attract any attention, unless you are going to tell me different, yes in France it could be accomodated, but I say again it is a RFL competition, in my opinion it should be staged over here, perhaps on your thinking if Le Cats and Toronto won through to the Challenge Cup final it could be transferred to one of those countries instead of Wembley, sounds daft doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 24 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: I do agree with you that the way that the "highest place team" was worked out does need some fixing and that is across the leagues. Losing in the playoffs should mean forfeiting the right to home advantage. In all fairness Harry I see the million pound game (as it is still being called now) as effectively a championship grand final to gain Super League status. On your specific SL do this so why don't the championship Question. I think it simply comes down to economics at the moment but like I say I think this could change. Simply put, there are not enough championship clubs that could guarantee between them to get enough fans to a neutral venue for a stand alone fixture. I don't disagree with merging this with League 1's Playoff final either. Perhaps if Toulouse are promoted we may reach that stage where there are enough well supported teams in the presumably wholly British championship to host a neutral final. Tommy when does that statement of yours (in bold) come into play in this fickle medium that is Rugby League Football? In another thread still on the main page, there is a title "Which team would you like to see promoted" with the exception of Bradford who have prooved previously they can attract customers and a fan base, and even my club Leigh who only two years ago posted a 6500 average attendance in SL and could so again, all the other desires and hopefuls of the posters had nothing but a wish and a hope to base their selections on, there would also be some incumbant SL teams including obe of the teams competing in the SL GF who should make way for these 2 clubs if economics is the main criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 31 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: perhaps on your thinking if Le Cats and Toronto won through to the Challenge Cup final it could be transferred to one of those countries instead of Wembley, sounds daft doesn't it? Doesn't sound daft at all...actually sounds like what we call 'a natural evolution'. You would probably understand it better if it was referred to as a 'cull'. The strong will survive, the weak...well you know. "Raise The Cap!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Tommygilf said: I do agree with you that the way that the "highest place team" was worked out does need some fixing and that is across the leagues. Losing in the playoffs should mean forfeiting the right to home advantage. In all fairness Harry I see the million pound game (as it is still being called now) as effectively a championship grand final to gain Super League status. On your specific SL do this so why don't the championship Question. I think it simply comes down to economics at the moment but like I say I think this could change. Simply put, there are not enough championship clubs that could guarantee between them to get enough fans to a neutral venue for a stand alone fixture. I don't disagree with merging this with League 1's Playoff final either. Perhaps if Toulouse are promoted we may reach that stage where there are enough well supported teams in the presumably wholly British championship to host a neutral final. ' wholly British ' , as in Ontario and NY ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANO Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 You could solve all these problems by doing away with the silly bash and promote the top team sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDINTHEHIZZOUSE Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 You could solve all these problems by sticking with a winning format,simply promote teams whose names begin with the letter L. It's been quite successful over the last couple of seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dealwithit Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 15 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Completely agree Mr Dealer, but why change it from the format that has been used before, lets say for arguments the same two teams contested this years final at a neutral venue say Headingley do you consider it would have been less attended than the 9,000 or so that was in in attendance in Toronto? The last Championship Grand Final was held at this same venue in 2014 between Fev and Leigh and virtually the same attendance was posted, I consider the Championship to have a higher profile today than 5 years ago and I would have expected that figure to be increased on. Yes the decision was taken at the beginning of the season but in my opinion for one reason alone, it was still very fresh in the minds of the RFL of the Challenge Cup Wembley final the previous season 2018 in which Catalan took part in and the posting of the worst Wembley attendance by a good number since the war. Toronto and Tolouse were the two clubs expected to be contesting the Grand Final last year and being such I honestly believe that is why Rimmer ducked away from the accepted format of the neutral venue final which would have been over here, out of fear that it would not be very well attended, can you honestly tell me of any other reason why he should change the format? Great question. The answer is: if a neutral venue of Leeds is decided and the grand final teams are Toulouse and London, will enough attend to not only be viable but also appear to be well attended for PR and broadcast images? Growing up playing RL with a top 5 system, the winner of grand final qualifier always hosted the grand final. Everyone was aware and no one bothered complaining. It was the desired reward for being the best team to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 3 hours ago, dealwithit said: Great question. The answer is: if a neutral venue of Leeds is decided and the grand final teams are Toulouse and London, will enough attend to not only be viable but also appear to be well attended for PR and broadcast images? Growing up playing RL with a top 5 system, the winner of grand final qualifier always hosted the grand final. Everyone was aware and no one bothered complaining. It was the desired reward for being the best team to date. If it's a London-Toulouse final will enough attend to be viable but also appear to be well attended for PR and broadcast images ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 7 hours ago, dealwithit said: Great question. The answer is: if a neutral venue of Leeds is decided and the grand final teams are Toulouse and London, will enough attend to not only be viable but also appear to be well attended for PR and broadcast images? Growing up playing RL with a top 5 system, the winner of grand final qualifier always hosted the grand final. Everyone was aware and no one bothered complaining. It was the desired reward for being the best team to date. Hi Mr Dealer, I can go back to the times we had a top 16 play off to determine the Champions that was in the days of one division and the Lancashire and Yorkshire leagues employed within that system, being such every club did not play each other hence we had a League Leaders and a Premiership trophy. When we went to two divisions and employed a P & R system the number of clubs to be Promoted/Relegated was by finishing position in their respective divisions we have had 1, 2, 3 and even 4 clubs swopping leagues in that system. In the modern/summer era in the years there has been P&R employed it has been by a play off system in the Championship to determine the promoted team and the final has always been played at a Neutral Venue, so has not to give any club 'home advantage", which to me the prize for winning/losing warrents, the club finishing in pole position has had a favoured route to the final which is reward for being the League leaders. I seem to recall the Premiership final for the old 1st division being played at the home of one of the competing teams but cannot recall it ever being so in a promotion Grand Final, perhaps you can expand on examples of everyone one being aware and no one complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Taylor Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 London - Are they as strong as they were the year they were up? Featherstone - How impact will the new coach have on the team? Is James Webster the coach to lead them to promotion? Leigh - Have they signed the right players to push on? Is James Duffy the right coach - or is he a yes man? York - Can James Ford carry on his superb job with the astute signings he's made? Toulouse - Will injuries effect them again? Is this year there year? What impact will the new stadium have on performances? Halifax - Will they hit the ground running? Or will they be hit and miss? Bradford - Are they a surprise package now they have new owners and only just missed out on play off rugby last year? Sheffield - Big loss losing Pat Walker, have they replaced him well? Widnes - Year re-building - but you'd think that they will be there or there abouts Batley - Start of the divide in the league. Made a great signing recently, but what else have they got in store? New coach - new ideas? Dewsbury - Similar story to Batley - are they play off contenders or relegation survivors? Oldham - Hard to decide between the three teams below. Swinton Whitehaven Just a few thoughts / discussion points above 2008 RFL Wakefield & District Young Volunteer of the Year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Chris Taylor said: London - Are they as strong as they were the year they were up? Featherstone - How impact will the new coach have on the team? Is James Webster the coach to lead them to promotion? Leigh - Have they signed the right players to push on? Is James Duffy the right coach - or is he a yes man? York - Can James Ford carry on his superb job with the astute signings he's made? Toulouse - Will injuries effect them again? Is this year there year? What impact will the new stadium have on performances? Halifax - Will they hit the ground running? Or will they be hit and miss? Bradford - Are they a surprise package now they have new owners and only just missed out on play off rugby last year? Sheffield - Big loss losing Pat Walker, have they replaced him well? Widnes - Year re-building - but you'd think that they will be there or there abouts Batley - Start of the divide in the league. Made a great signing recently, but what else have they got in store? New coach - new ideas? Dewsbury - Similar story to Batley - are they play off contenders or relegation survivors? Oldham - Hard to decide between the three teams below. Swinton Whitehaven Just a few thoughts / discussion points above It's John Duffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Evans Thigh Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 I'd make Toulouse favourites. They're up there every year and are very difficult to beat away so I can see them finishing top and ending up with an easy route to the final (wherever that may be). Fev have recruited very well with Hall, Minns, Ferguson, Ferris, Parata but the big question mark is over Jouffret and the main signing, Webster as coach. If those two can deliver in their important roles, fev will be up there again. Leigh, who knows. I don't get a great feeling about them but they will be strong and could challenge if everything clicks. London I think will disappoint having lost some key players and will be a target from day 1 having been relegated. Might even miss the play-offs but in Wardy they have a great coach and are full time so I'd back them to do well. Another great coach at York, who should have another crack although I think they will drop a little. Widnes, Bradford, Fax could push into the top 5 with a good run if things click but a lot of problems to iron out for those clubs. At this stage I'd go: Toulouse, Fev, London, York, Leigh, Widnes Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid." MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions " Discounts available for forum members contact me for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Taylor Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 5 hours ago, GUBRATS said: It's John Duffy 2008 RFL Wakefield & District Young Volunteer of the Year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.