Smith justifies big changes at Hull KR

[Total Rugby League]

TONY SMITH believes Hull Kingston Rovers had no alternative but to undergo a drastic overhaul of their squad heading into the 2020 season. The Robins...

View the full article

[Farmduck]

He's right though. There's no point being in SL if your only goal is to stave off relegation every year.

[eal]

They should just merge with Hull FC to form Hull United.

[The Future is League]

15 hours ago, Total Rugby League said:

TONY SMITH believes Hull Kingston Rovers had no alternative but to undergo a drastic overhaul of their squad heading into the 2020 season. The Robins...

View the full article

If they don't make the top 5 Smith could find himself under pressure. with this overhaul.

[HKR AWAY DAYS]

We literally had no choice; you all saw how bad we were last season.

You also have to consider the reserve competition too. 

We have a few identifiably quality players in Quinlan, Kenny-Dowell, Linnet, Masoe, and Parcell.

We have a few young lads coming through, as well as a few 'projects' from other clubs.

Changes were absolutely necessary and they all get a full pre-season under their belts too.

That's my positivity quota maxed out for t'day...

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, HKR AWAY DAYS said:

We literally had no choice; you all saw how bad we were last season.

You also have to consider the reserve competition too. 

We have a few identifiably quality players in Quinlan, Kenny-Dowell, Linnet, Masoe, and Parcell.

We have a few young lads coming through, as well as a few 'projects' from other clubs.

Changes were absolutely necessary and they all get a full pre-season under their belts too.

That's my positivity quota maxed out for t'day...

Funnily enough the 5 identifiable quality players you mention are all surplus to requirement NRL players, being those not good enough or those past their sell by date for that comp.

This is not a slur on HKR but I think it sums up where as a sport in the UK we are going, I think on the back of the performance in the recent test series it just puts into perspective just how low our game is becoming that one of our top 12 clubs has to take on this recruitment policy, we just cannot produce enough home grown quality players of our own, our resources are so small in player development that a club of HKR's stature struggles to entice High Profile British player's, and there are those who think it a good policy to dilute the player resources even further by adopting clubs in areas that will never add to the player pool. 

Anyway good luck with next season Away Day's.

[Hullfan]

On 26/11/2019 at 17:06, eal said:

They should just merge with Hull FC to form Hull United.

Or Hull KFC

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

there are those who think it a good policy to dilute the player resources even further by adopting clubs in areas that will never add to the player pool. 

What does this bit mean? Not sure how this relates to the comment about the ex NRL players

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

What does this bit mean? Not sure how this relates to the comment about the ex NRL players

What it means RLG, is that if new clubs are allowed into our competition that has no way of adding to the player pool it will be a further drain on the player resources we have, obviously there will be Antipodeans joining these clubs but the majority will be British lads, tge playing roster at Toronto for example.

We employ 90 plus antipodeans to substansiate our lack of player development as it stands, the more new clubs who can't produce will mean a larger demand for what we have not got, the standard of the game will fall alarmingly from an already substandard position.

Scubby, if you read this youe emoji laugh will come back to haunt you in years to come.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What it means RLG, is that if new clubs are allowed into our competition that has no way of adding to the player pool it will be a further drain on the player resources we have, obviously there will be Antipodeans joining these clubs but the majority will be British lads, tge playing roster at Toronto for example.

We employ 90 plus antipodeans to substansiate our lack of player development as it stands, the more new clubs who can't produce will mean a larger demand for what we have not got, the standard of the game will fall alarmingly from an already substandard position.

Scubby, if you read this youe emoji laugh will come back to haunt you in years to come.

I think that's an overly simplistic way of looking at it and not sure I agree with it. 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I think that's an overly simplistic way of looking at it and not sure I agree with it. 

Simplistic? The simple fact is we in the UK are not producing player's in enough numbers to populate our teams without the reliance on surplus NRL, City and Country League, Kiwi and P.Islanders personnel.

Would HKR have the need to invest in 'average' Aussies to lead the team if we could produce our own, in fact the Hull and District League was one of the best breeding grounds of RL talent in the country, how strong is it today? The evidence is at HKR!

Please tell me what is difficult to understand if we have say another 3 teams in the British game who would be totally reliant on others to produce their playing rosters, that it would dilute an already undersubscibed ledger of player's we have for our teams here, and if at the expense of admitting these teams it impacts on the demise of clubs and in turn the area's that DO produce player's.

Your thoughts please RLG.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

46 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Simplistic? The simple fact is we in the UK are not producing player's in enough numbers to populate our teams without the reliance on surplus NRL, City and Country League, Kiwi and P.Islanders personnel.

This is part of the issue, but IMO the reintroduction of P&R has meant that alot of clubs will go for the short-term quick fix of importing an overseas player rather than developing their own.

48 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Please tell me what is difficult to understand if we have say another 3 teams in the British game who would be totally reliant on others to produce their playing rosters, that it would dilute an already undersubscibed ledger of player's we have for our teams here, and if at the expense of admitting these teams it impacts on the demise of clubs and in turn the area's that DO produce player's.

This is a simplistic, short-term view of how these things work. In your example, you've simply stated that adding 3 new clubs to the mix will dilute the player pool, but haven't acknowledged that the 3 new clubs will offer anything new in terms of player development, and attracting new supporters, sponsors and revenue in to the game. Newcastle, for example, are offering a huge amount in terms of long-term player development in the North East. 

[Harry Stottle]

58 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

This is part of the issue, but IMO the reintroduction of P&R has meant that alot of clubs will go for the short-term quick fix of importing an overseas player rather than developing their own.

This is a simplistic, short-term view of how these things work. In your example, you've simply stated that adding 3 new clubs to the mix will dilute the player pool, but haven't acknowledged that the 3 new clubs will offer anything new in terms of player development, and attracting new supporters, sponsors and revenue in to the game. Newcastle, for example, are offering a huge amount in terms of long-term player development in the North East. 

I am not talking Newcastle Mr Geek, I am directing it to those overseas hopefuls of joining our league, I would love them to be in a position to substantiate their position in terms of a staged development plan, I would love them to offer a constructive proposal, propsition, intension and objective in taking the sport forward but all we have had is the theory there are 1000's of ready made athlete's who are a perfect fit for RL, after the many auditions that took place in North America please point one out to me who the coaches thought they had something to work on!

I have a fear of the impact it is going to have on our sport if this "expansion" project is carried on, I have asked the question many times on these pages how are these teams going to be populated and not once has any other answer other than there are a lot of player's in Australia to choose from. Well yes there must be HKR are prooving that in their recruitment policy but what is that doing for our game here?

Go through our clubs and look at the teams and the reliance on overseas player's, is it any wonder our National team is so ###### and we don't stop there in the recruitment in that Great Britain also have had 3 Average Aussies performing, and I got first hand evidence from the stands not just from the TV producers perpective of showing the close up's of ball in hand and effective tackles, anyone with any knowledge of RL who can see and deduce what is going on without having Jon Wells explain it to them sitting there watching it unfold will realise just how bad we were. 

Sorry I have gone of on a tangent somewhat but I feel it is all interconnected, in that we don't produce enough player's, one of our top club's is just reliant on average Aussie's, our playing pool is so shallow, new clubs in territories that can only ever take out of the pool and not give back, and our National team with so few quality player's to choose from is evidence enough that we are at a crisis stage with the game in this country, it needs a good dose of attention and people in charge with the abillity and acumen to take the game forward not just the pocket liners who head our sport at the moment.

[Click]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am not talking Newcastle Mr Geek, I am directing it to those overseas hopefuls of joining our league, I would love them to be in a position to substantiate their position in terms of a staged development plan, I would love them to offer a constructive proposal, propsition, intension and objective in taking the sport forward but all we have had is the theory there are 1000's of ready made athlete's who are a perfect fit for RL, after the many auditions that took place in North America please point one out to me who the coaches thought they had something to work on!

I have a fear of the impact it is going to have on our sport if this "expansion" project is carried on, I have asked the question many times on these pages how are these teams going to be populated and not once has any other answer other than there are a lot of player's in Australia to choose from. Well yes there must be HKR are prooving that in their recruitment policy but what is that doing for our game here?

Go through our clubs and look at the teams and the reliance on overseas player's, is it any wonder our National team is so ###### and we don't stop there in the recruitment in that Great Britain also have had 3 Average Aussies performing, and I got first hand evidence from the stands not just from the TV producers perpective of showing the close up's of ball in hand and effective tackles, anyone with any knowledge of RL who can see and deduce what is going on without having Jon Wells explain it to them sitting there watching it unfold will realise just how bad we were. 

Sorry I have gone of on a tangent somewhat but I feel it is all interconnected, in that we don't produce enough player's, one of our top club's is just reliant on average Aussie's, our playing pool is so shallow, new clubs in territories that can only ever take out of the pool and not give back, and our National team with so few quality player's to choose from is evidence enough that we are at a crisis stage with the game in this country, it needs a good dose of attention and people in charge with the abillity and acumen to take the game forward not just the pocket liners who head our sport at the moment.

You keep repeating this same point over and over - But what is going to change the shallow playing pool, if it isn't expanding to new markets?

You can't fault a new team for not having a ready production line of youth to come through the second they register at Companies House.

How long did it take Melbourne Storm to start producing talented youngsters? How long has it taken London to have a steady stream of youth?

IMO, if you don't expand into these new markets, then you will never increase our player pool, as the clubs in this country evidently don't care too much to invest in increasing it.

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Click said:

You keep repeating this same point over and over - But what is going to change the shallow playing pool, if it isn't expanding to new markets?

You can't fault a new team for not having a ready production line of youth to come through the second they register at Companies House.

How long did it take Melbourne Storm to start producing talented youngsters? How long has it taken London to have a steady stream of youth?

IMO, if you don't expand into these new markets, then you will never increase our player pool, as the clubs in this country evidently don't care too much to invest in increasing it.

Thanks for the reply Click,

Yes I do labour over the same points and ask the same questions, but there are never any positive answers, I am not faulting any team in that they have no academy but some concerted effort with even commencing on a grass roots policy would help, people do use the example of Melbourne quite often but never broach on the fact that it is a mere 400 miles from Canberra were the District Regional Rugby League comp has been in existance since 1910 and if so wished within Driving distance it happens to be only 120miles further than London to Newcastle and most probably shorter in driving time - given comparative road conditions -.

Your last sentance, please define 'expansion' is it 1. Getting a new audience viewing the game,  or 2. Increase the number of participants taking part in the sport? 

So in terms of what I believe to be your take on expansion (I have taken the liberty of answering for you) in that it is a way to eventually increase the player pool, how can it be done, what mechanics will be set in place to acheive the goal, and most importantly how long will it take considering we are at a crisis point right now with the game requiring action required immediately to reverse the downhill trend.

As for the second part of your last paragraph, I will go half way with you, clubs do care when youngster's get to a certain age to be adopted under their system,  but not enough I believe is done from them and more importantly the RFL below Academy age level, we have been on the downward slope ever since the RFL took the jurisdiction of the running of the amateur game from BARLA.

I don't raise this stuff to be argumentative or troll as I have been accused of,  I am genuinely worried that Rugby League (UK) is not very well at the moment and requires corrective action to reverse it, I am yet to be convinced that the North American experiment is the treatment required.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

our playing pool is so shallow, new clubs in territories that can only ever take out of the pool and not give back, and our National team with so few quality player's to choose from is evidence enough that we are at a crisis stage with the game in this country

I agree with Mr/Mrs Click that this point emphasises the need to expand in to new markets in order to widen both our player pool, and select from a more diverse gene pool in order to attract more and better athletes to our sport. Watching the Tongans, Kiwis and Aussies, it's evident that they have more athletic individuals than we do currently. If we continue to draw from the same well - i.e. a relatively small number of northern towns/cities - then we are going to be really limiting ourselves in terms of the quality and quantity of athletes that we can attract.

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Go through our clubs and look at the teams and the reliance on overseas player's, is it any wonder our National team is so ######

IMO this is linked to the point above, and also the re-introduction of promotion and relegation, and the short-term mindset that accompanies it. The England team that performed admirably in the 2013 WC semi final was filled with players that had developed during the licencing years. Looking at this year's dad's army outing, it was evident that we're still largely reliant on the same players who played in the semi final 6 years ago. I'm concerned that we haven't developed as many talented British players because too many clubs are opting for the short-term quick fix of an import in order to avoid the cliff-edge of relegation.

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am not talking Newcastle Mr Geek, I am directing it to those overseas hopefuls of joining our league, I would love them to be in a position to substantiate their position in terms of a staged development plan, I would love them to offer a constructive proposal, propsition, intension and objective in taking the sport forward but all we have had is the theory there are 1000's of ready made athlete's who are a perfect fit for RL, after the many auditions that took place in North America please point one out to me who the coaches thought they had something to work on!

I'm not as concerned as you about this, but I can understand why you feel this way. It would be good to see a more clearly defined development pathway to help attract new talent to the sport, but in the same breath, they are in virgin territory and we have to accept that it is going to take upwards of 10-20 years for them to start developing home grown players. However, the potential benefits that they can bring to the game in the intervening period cuts them a lot of slack in my opinion. We've seen the media interest that the Sonny Bill signing has generated, and this is arguably going to be as effective a strategy for exciting and attracting new supporters and interest to the game, and hopefully it will have a knock on effect in terms of inspiring youngsters to want to play.

[Gooleboy]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Im certain that my club, had we not had relegation, would have put a huge amount more of their youngsters on the field for longer minutes had we not been under threat of relegation.

I seem to recall SL Clubs in the licensing years still bringing plenty of overseas players in instead of playing youngsters, and many of those only came because they couldn't get a game in the NRL. Even Stevo, a great advocate of the closed shop Super League said as much.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

I seem to recall SL Clubs in the licensing years still bringing plenty of overseas players in instead of playing youngsters, and many of those only came because they couldn't get a game in the NRL. Even Stevo, a great advocate of the closed shop Super League said as much.

Did you ever manage to find any stats on this? I'm far from convinced of the accuracy of much of what Stevo said I'm afraid.

[Gooleboy]

Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Did you ever manage to find any stats on this? I'm far from convinced of the accuracy of much of what Stevo said I'm afraid.

I haven't, but if there had been a drop in overseas recruits during Licensing, I am sure we would have heard about it at the time. Too many ordinary overseas players being recruited has been an issue that has blighted the domestic game for years, and has effected our lack of achievement at international level. Regarding P&R, Tony Smith regularly voices his opinion against it, but I don't remember him being so vocal when he was trying to get Huddersfield promoted.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

Regarding P&R, Tony Smith regularly voices his opinion against it, but I don't remember him being so vocal when he was trying to get Huddersfield promoted.

In the coaches and owners defense, they have to play to the rules set out. So you can't really blame people for choosing a short-term quick fix signing over a longer-term developmental option, because they can't afford to take any risks.

[GUBRATS]

4 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

The problem with Harrys arguement is he pretends that Toronto are diluting the player pool, then if they sign overseas players they are stopping opportunities for british players.

Then if you point out the myriad of clubs, like his who havent developed an SL player in a decade and a half, dont run academies you get the argument that thats because Wigan sign them all. When you ask well what are Leigh contributing if that is the case you get some vague nonsense about the amateur game falling to pieces if Leigh arent at the top level. When you point out that leigh havent been in SL for 22 of the last 24 seasons (25 next year) we move on to the idea that without the 'possibility' of SL through P+R the amateur game in Leigh would collapse and then Wigan wouldnt be able to develop those youth players.

when you point out the inherent hypocrisy of the excuses made for and low bar applied to leigh and the high bar and no acceptance of the circumstances applicable to Toronto you get BoJoesque harrumphing and obfuscation.

Lets just be honest, Harry doesnt like Toronto, he doesnt like change, he remembers a game that was played by parishes every 5miles 50 years ago and cant accept the world has moved on and is such is making bad faith arguments about youth development.
 

That Tony Smith making an argument that Hull Kr didnt have good enough players, and Hull Kr going out and buying NRL players, and RFL and BARLA failures are in any way related to, never mind the fault of Toronto or any expansion side really is not a good faith argument. At best its labored trolling at worst moronic, tortured logic.

A couple of days ago you we agreeing that 3/4 academies either side of the Pennines was about all we could accommodate

It suited your argument then , now it doesn't , so who's the politician now ?

[GUBRATS]

Coaches will get whatever players they can to keep them in a job wether there's P and R or not 

[Marty Funkhouser]

31 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

You recall incorrectly. There where fewer overseas players in the licensing years. To the point that the change to p+r coincided with an increase in the quota

I think you must be recalling incorrectly or are making stuff up to suit your position again. There were 112 overseas players in 2009, the first season of licensing. In 2019, a P&R season of course, there were 72.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

I think you must be recalling incorrectly or are making stuff up to suit your position again. There were 112 overseas players in 2009, the first season of licensing. In 2019, a P&R season of course, there were 72.

Do you know the figures for the last season before licencing (i.e. 2008), and the last season before the reintroduction of P&R (2014)? I think seeing the overall trends across all seasons would be more useful in this instance, otherwise it doesn't show the full picture.

[GUBRATS]

20 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I've said before I think clubs should have an academy, I see no reason those academies need to be based where the clubs are.

And I'm not mirroring Harry's argument. The whole player pool argument is far more complex than that and frankly the paradigm harry is arguing from isnt real or in good faith. 

Are you on bonus for using the word ' paradigm ' ?