Catalans fail to land new TV deal

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I didn't realise that this would be such a contentious concept.

You didn't realise saying something, anything at all, on this forum would be contentious?

Er ...........

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Them being in the SL may well help secure a new French TV deal, but fast tracking them in to see if it does, is not the right way for me, they should get there on merit by winning the Grand Final.

In which case nobody can be disappointed if we don't secure a decent French TV deal. And if people are happy with the potential long-term implications of this in relation to lack of exposure and resulting development of the game in France, then fair enough.

[M j M]

2 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Why 'weak'? From my perspective it's being realistic. We're talking about trying to secure a SL broadcasting deal with French TV. At present, there is one French club in SL. They will play in France every other week on a Saturday evening. When playing in the UK, they could be playing on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday or Sunday at various times of the day. Moreover, there is no guarantee they will be in SL in 2021. If you were a broadcaster, what is a more attractive deal? One team that will fill every other Saturday evening in your TV schedules for possibly just one season, or two teams that will provide you with content every Saturday evening, which will be guaranteed for X number of years? I know which one of the two options I would be more inclined to invest time and money into.

I'm not a fan of any particular SL club, and have no axe to grind other than wanting what's best for the development of the sport. However, I can see several commercial challenges associated with P&R. You may claim that I'm "shoehorning an anti-PR agenda into this", but for me, this topic is a perfect illustration of how P&R can impact upon the longer-term strategic planning and growth of the sport.

As I explained earlier, if people want P&R then that's fine. But don't expect anybody to be queueing up to offer SL a decent French broadcasting deal, because showing a Catalans Dragons game every other week isn't as attractive an offer as some people are perhaps making it out to be.

The French TV deal has always been a pretty hand to mouth job and the TV companies are not particularly interested either way. Yes if there was more than one French team it would be more attractive, but that's not some amazing insight, it's just stating the obvious.

On the other hand it's also not on its own a good enough reason to push Toulouse or any other team into SL.

But back to the matter at hand - the French TV companies aren't going to sign up to long, lucrative, multi-season deals just because Catalans are exempt from relegation. That's not how it works and is a total misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the reason there isn't much interest in a French TV deal. It's all about the numbers - viewers, revenues and costs. None of these are materially affected by promotion and relegation.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, M j M said:

Yes if there was more than one French team it would be more attractive, but that's not some amazing insight, it's just stating the obvious.

What is equally obvious is that P&R impacts this

3 minutes ago, M j M said:

On the other hand it's also not on its own a good enough reason to push Toulouse or any other team into SL.

Well this is where you and I differ. I happen to think it's a perfectly good reason for putting a given team into SL. SL only exists as a professional competition because of the revenue from the broadcasting deal. To not consider the impact that the SL member clubs have on the broadcasting deal is naive in the extreme.

7 minutes ago, M j M said:

But back to the matter at hand - the French TV companies aren't going to sign up to long, lucrative, multi-season deals just because Catalans are exempt from relegation.

 Probably not Catalans on their own, for the reasons I highlighted above.

8 minutes ago, M j M said:

That's not how it works and is a total misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the reason there isn't much interest in a French TV deal. It's all about the numbers - viewers, revenues and costs. None of these are materially affected by promotion and relegation.

If it's all about the numbers as you say, then I expect having zero French clubs in SL would substantially affect the numbers of viewers. And this is 100% materially affected by promotion and relegation.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

What makes anyone think the League team will ever average anything more than about 5,000 if they go up is beyond me.

The fact that they've moved permanently to a much better facility; internationals played there regularly attract fairly high figures in comparison to SL games; they've attracted a near 7k attendance for a tier 2 game against a team with no away support; they'd have large traveling support from many of the big clubs; and they'd have a French derby game (possibly 2) all strike me as reasons as to why many would believe Toulouse would achieve more than 5k.

But if it's your prerogative to put Toulouse down as a tiny club with little to offer, so be it. Just don't blame people for thinking you've got ulterior reasons to do so 

 

[Themusician_2]

So basically rugby league is officially invisible in the french sporting landscape they should've paid for broadcasts instead. How can you not have a tv deal in France inexcusable! It's a real shame this great sport is hidden in the shadows in France it has a great history and is a sport made for TV. Also there's too many foreigners in the dragons. As we saw when french were only missing 12 players and got smashed Australia's juniors France need more players in professional environments. Maloney is a great player but he's taking the spot of a french talent. The champions cup win is now a long forgotten memory. Dark times in French RL at the moment.

[Moove]

27 minutes ago, Damien said:

Good point.

£250,000 could be used from the forfeited TWP TV share to film these games and they could then be put on YouTube for free in France to a much larger audience. Then see what the TV companies offer in a year's time after playing hardball.

Exactly the sort of outside the box idea SL should have been looking at. Perfect opportunity to test the water with something new. I wonder how the spending of that TWP money is coming along

[Eddie]

22 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

The fact that they've moved permanently to a much better facility; internationals played there regularly attract fairly high figures in comparison to SL games; they've attracted a near 7k attendance for a tier 2 game against a team with no away support; they'd have large traveling support from many of the big clubs; and they'd have a French derby game (possibly 2) all strike me as reasons as to why many would believe Toulouse would achieve more than 5k.

But if it's your prerogative to put Toulouse down as a tiny club with little to offer, so be it. Just don't blame people for thinking you've got ulterior reasons to do so 

 

Ulterior reason .

I’m not putting Toulouse down (I hope they succeed), I’m just not talking them up like a lot of other people do. If they get into SL and average 5,000 or more over a sustained period of a few seasons I’ll be chuffed to admit I was wrong. However as I’ve said based on their current crowds I don’t see any reason to think that will happen. The 6k gate last season was a one off and involved lots of free tickets, it doesn’t mean anything in terms of long term support. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Robert Elstone is solely responsible for this complete mess 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I’m not putting Toulouse down (I hope they succeed), I’m just not talking them up like a lot of other people do. If they get into SL and average 5,000 or more over a sustained period of a few seasons I’ll be chuffed to admit I was wrong. However as I’ve said based on their current crowds I don’t see any reason to think that will happen. The 6k gate last season was a one off and involved lots of free tickets, it doesn’t mean anything in terms of long term support. 

So if you're not an advocate of adding Toulouse in to SL, what do you think would produce a more attractive SL tv deal for French broadcasters?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Robert Elstone is solely responsible for this complete mess 

Really? What realistically do you expect him to get from a French broadcaster, given what he's offering them?

[M j M]

33 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

So if you're not an advocate of adding Toulouse in to SL, what do you think would produce a more attractive SL tv deal for French broadcasters?

You're for some reason deliberatey ignoring the obvious: more viewers.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

10 minutes ago, M j M said:

You're for some reason deliberatey ignoring the obvious: more viewers.

And is that in Robert Elstone's control?? How is he going to magically conjure up more viewers for them?

I've got an idea! One way might be to add Toulouse in to the comp for example, thus attracting viewers from a new city of almost half a million people.

How would you propose that Robert Elstone conjures up more viewers to help sell a broadcasting deal?

[Smudger06]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Good point.

£250,000 could be used from the forfeited TWP TV share to film these games and they could then be put on YouTube for free in France to a much larger audience. Then see what the TV companies offer in a year's time after playing hardball.

L'equippe, a free nationwide sports channel would take the feed if given it, Stick it on YouTube SL TV,  for the rest of the world geoblocking France  & UK (Sky would be entitled to it!) 

[M j M]

21 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

And is that in Robert Elstone's control?? How is he going to magically conjure up more viewers for them?

I've got an idea! One way might be to add Toulouse in to the comp for example, thus attracting viewers from a new city of almost half a million people.

How would you propose that Robert Elstone conjures up more viewers to help sell a broadcasting deal?

FFS this is a ridiculous hypothetical debate. If we "added" another French team then that might mean you'd get more than a bag of beans for the French rights - you might get two bags of beans. Meantime what does it do to the value of the UK rights?

I'm sure it's fun playing at being an RL administrator but every now and then you need to retreat back into the real world and at the moment the most important strategic thing for SL is the UK rights and how to preserve value there - which is exactly why Elstone was so cautious about Toronto in the first place. I'm happy with them and Catalan in SL but we need to keep our eyes open as to what it is that generates the largest slice of the game's income.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

10 minutes ago, M j M said:

FFS this is a ridiculous hypothetical debate. If we "added" another French team then that might mean you'd get more than a bag of beans for the French rights - you might get two bags of beans.

So when you stated "You're for some reason deliberatey ignoring the obvious: more viewers", you haven't provided any clue as to how that could be achieved.

And this isn't a hypothetical debate - it's a real scenario. We currently don't have a product that is sufficiently attractive for a French broadcaster, so how do we make it more attractive? My solution would be to add Toulouse in to the mix. You haven't proposed any solution.

17 minutes ago, M j M said:

Meantime what does it do to the value of the UK rights?

I'm sure it's fun playing at being an RL administrator but every now and then you need to retreat back into the real world and at the moment the most important strategic thing for SL is the UK rights and how to preserve value there - which is exactly why Elstone was so cautious about Toronto in the first place. I'm happy with them and Catalan in SL but we need to keep our eyes open as to what it is that generates the largest slice of the game's income.

Now this is a separate argument, albeit a related one. My guess is that it wouldn't negatively impact the UK rights at all, as there would still be a critical mass of UK clubs in the SL. However, I would eliminate P&R and get a return to licencing, in order to ring fence the biggest UK clubs that bring most to the party in terms of attracting viewers. Strategically, I don't believe that SL can afford to run the risk of a club like Featherstone with a population of approx 15k replacing a club like Leeds with a population of over 500k - it's commercial suicide. But I don't want to dwell on this, because this thread is about the French TV contract as opposed to P&R vs licencing.

 

 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

So if you're not an advocate of adding Toulouse in to SL, what do you think would produce a more attractive SL tv deal for French broadcasters?

A strong domestic French competition. 

[themainbrace]

You're right about the need to strengthen the French competition.

But earlier you dismissed Toulouse's ability to draw crowds.  Their average last year was almost 2,500 not just 2k.  That's 2,500 in the second tier where all their home games are against clubs in a different country.  Even if they only managed the 135% increase that London did, that would give them an average of almost 6k.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

29 minutes ago, Eddie said:

A strong domestic French competition. 

In order to get a strong domestic French competition, it's probably going to need to be funded via a tv deal a la Super League, so there's going to be an element of chicken and egg there. Would you advocate Catalans joining that as well?

[themainbrace]

It is worrying that Catalans have no TV deal, although the existing TV deal wasn't that great.  I haven't got a simple solution to this but there does look to be a lack of unity in RL at the moment.  Super League are looking to concentrate on them selves and worrying less about the Championship/League 1.  Even those 12 clubs in SL aren't working together with the share of Sky money being withheld from Toronto and Catalans being asked to pay for to enter the Challenge cup.

[frank]

In no way should a club be paying to have their games televised.Any tv contract entered into by Sl  should include all clubs in that comp.

[dhw]

4 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Robert Elstone is solely responsible for this complete mess 

It is difficult to deduce if this is ironic or to be taken literally. If it is the latter, then it is not true.

[Chamey]

4 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Really? What realistically do you expect him to get from a French broadcaster, given what he's offering them?

Wasn't the original BEIN offer to just extend the current deal, which SLE turned down?

 

As for adding Toulouse, that doesn't mean that all of a sudden there'd be a tv deal. If Toulouse drew lower viewing numbers than Catalan (likely), then you've effectively doubled the cost of televising all the games, but less than doubled the viewing figures, which isn't an attractive proposition.

[ojx]

5 hours ago, Moove said:

I wonder how the spending of that TWP money is coming along

It is going well, if you are an Aussie journeyman.

[Number 16]

I agree with one of the above posters who suggested SL investing some money in the self-broadcasting / YouTube route. 

It is, IMO, the ideal first step towards testing the market for a subscription service.