Dave T Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 What a French Broadcaster would pay for multiple French teams should not be a surprise to anyone. At the moment the value to bein appears to be absolutely zero, and in fact they want us to cover all costs. It is quite a simple conversation to understand what the value would be if we put Toulouse in SL. Unfortunately, for all of the aggressive talking I suspect the answer is still close to zero. We also know that there is no value in the North American market right now. This is the challenge that we face here, how the game monetises these teams in newer territories - so far the game outside of Catalans themselves appear to have failed to secure investment from France, and there is a risk of more of the same from Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 This is a genuine question, I'm not making a point, but why does the Premier League/Sky relationship work with P+R. Sky don't lower their bids because of relegation. Of course the big clubs are unlikely to go down, but the same is true in SL. I can't see Saints, Warriors, or Wire or Rhinos going down either.. I can't see Amazon if they want SL saying, " we must ensure the global brands of ...er.. Castleford and Wakefield remain before we hand over the dosh " Why did Amazon bid for the EPL ? Because they knew NAILED ON that large numbers would at least sign up for a month. There simply isn't enough of us fans to make showing RL worthwhile. Amazon are a global name, the only sports that would interest them IMO are Soccer, (big leagues only), NFL,NBA, for an Asian audience, IPL, , and something not previously mentioned Boxing. What would Amazon have given for Ruiz vs Joshua last Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manu266 Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Number 16 said: I agree with one of the above posters who suggested SL investing some money in the self-broadcasting / YouTube route. It is, IMO, the ideal first step towards testing the market for a subscription service. Well without French broadcaster, the international RFL streaming service becomes automatically available for French subscribers, so we will see if the content (just 2 away Catalan games in the first part of the season I think) attracts French viewers. I just hope the service still exists in 2020 they (or someone else, ie Wolfpack) improve it they promote it they add Challenge Cup games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 42 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: The value of SL in the uk isnt in the smaller half of the SL clubs. Frankly sky couldnt care less if we had Hudds or Hanoi in there, leigh or Lima. Having Les Catalans in and not halifax doesnt make it less attractive to Sky. It does open up a new market for us that has potential for growth. But the game is in no position to maximise or fulfil that potential. Les Catalans and Toulouse being in SL next year probably wont create any French tv value. Why would it. To value of one season is negligible. It's a long term project. Toulouse and les Catalans as part of a 5-10year project certainly does have value. It has value to french tv and it has value to uk TV. It's the same with Toronto and every other expansion club. We need to build their value and P+R stops us from having the stability to do so. TV companies arent going to spend money showcasing a sport that could be irrelevant in a years time. The constantly rotating cast of small clubs somewhere between the championship and SL arent where the value of tv rights lay or where the growth of them is. Toronto, Toulouse, les Catalans might be Without relegation the vast majority of games become fairly meaningless and not of interest to the armchair viewer and therefore not to tv companies. I certainly wouldn’t be tuning in to watch 11th v 12th mid way through the season, or indeed 7th v 8th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 15 minutes ago, HawkMan said: This is a genuine question, I'm not making a point, but why does the Premier League/Sky relationship work with P+R. Football is a global behemoth in terms of participation and audiences. There is infinitely more money in the game than there is in most other global team sports, so relegation isn't the same cliff-edge disaster that it is in Super League and some other sports. Similarly, P&R tends to work in amateur competitions where there isn't a huge gulf in standards between the divisions. For rugby league, the gulf between the full-timers and the part-timers is massive, so relegation is like falling off a cliff-edge. For me, there just isn't the money in the game to risk losing one of our biggest clubs to relegation if they happen to have an off-season. There was an excellent edition of the BBC RL podcast earlier in the year, where Shane Richardson (Rabbitohs) and Mark Evans (Harlequins and Melbourne Storm) were extremely pragmatic about rugby league needing to play to its strengths, and highlighted the fact that the loss of Bradford from SL meant that one of the competition's better supported clubs in one of the comp's bigger population centres was something the game couldn't really afford. Take the example of Leeds being replaced by Featherstone. We'd be losing the game's best supported club, in a prosperous city of >500k people, and it would be replaced by a village of approx 15k. Think of the implications from a commercial point of view, in terms of who sponsors would be marketing their product to, and the likely viewers that would tune in for broadcasts. In soccer, the terms currently vying for promotion include Leeds, Sheffield Wed, Notts Forest and Bristol - well supported clubs in big prosperous cities. Rugby league should never try to imitate soccer, as the money and interest in the 2 sports is not remotely comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said: Football is a global behemoth in terms of participation and audiences. There is infinitely more money in the game than there is in most other global team sports, so relegation isn't the same cliff-edge disaster that it is in Super League and some other sports. Similarly, P&R tends to work in amateur competitions where there isn't a huge gulf in standards between the divisions. For rugby league, the gulf between the full-timers and the part-timers is massive, so relegation is like falling off a cliff-edge. For me, there just isn't the money in the game to risk losing one of our biggest clubs to relegation if they happen to have an off-season. There was an excellent edition of the BBC RL podcast earlier in the year, where Shane Richardson (Rabbitohs) and Mark Evans (Harlequins and Melbourne Storm) were extremely pragmatic about rugby league needing to play to its strengths, and highlighted the fact that the loss of Bradford from SL meant that one of the competition's better supported clubs in one of the comp's bigger population centres was something the game couldn't really afford. Take the example of Leeds being replaced by Featherstone. We'd be losing the game's best supported club, in a prosperous city of >500k people, and it would be replaced by a village of approx 15k. Think of the implications from a commercial point of view, in terms of who sponsors would be marketing their product to, and the likely viewers that would tune in for broadcasts. In soccer, the terms currently vying for promotion include Leeds, Sheffield Wed, Notts Forest and Bristol - well supported clubs in big prosperous cities. Rugby league should never try to imitate soccer, as the money and interest in the 2 sports is not remotely comparable. Would you rather watch Leeds v Hull KR in an end of season game where one is 11th and one is 12th, one point apart but there is no relegation, or the same game where there is relegation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, scotchy1 said: That's just not borne out by the evidence of what actually happens. When has any sport in this country done away with P&R in favour of a closed shop and when it happened what happened to TV audiences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Eddie said: Would you rather watch Leeds v Hull KR in an end of season game where one is 11th and one is 12th, one point apart but there is no relegation, or the same game where there is relegation? Being completely honest, in the example that you give above I would rather watch the game with relegation, as it is exciting. However, I don't think the short-term excitement is worth the longer-term instability that limits the game's ability to grow. Also, for every season where there is a thrilling tight finish at the bottom, there are probably more examples of teams getting cut adrift and finishing bottom by a big margin. Plus I think the game needs to focus more on the excitement at the top of the competition rather than the mediocrity at the bottom. The only way that P&R would work for me is if relegation to the lower tier wasn't the equivalent of falling off a cliff. 10-team divisions is the only way that I could see it potentially working, as the gulf in standards and money wouldn't be as huge. But then it would need 20-teams to be full-time, and there isn't the money for that. And even then, in the example you give, I don't believe it would be in the wider interests of the comp to lose either Hull KR or Leeds to be replaced by the likes of Featherstone or Dewsbury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Eddie said: When has any sport in this country done away with P&R in favour of a closed shop and when it happened what happened to TV audiences? Do you have the figures of what happened to SL's tv audiences when they went to licencing? Other than SL, has a sport in this country ever done it? I can't think of any. How does T20 county cricket do for tv audiences? They don't have P&R. Overseas, none of the the NRL, NFL, NBA, MLB, Super15s etc have P&R. Why not? 30 minutes ago, Eddie said: Without relegation the vast majority of games become fairly meaningless and not of interest to the armchair viewer and therefore not to tv companies. I certainly wouldn’t be tuning in to watch 11th v 12th mid way through the season, or indeed 7th v 8th. 7th v 8th would likely be competing for play-off spots, and would therefore have added interest. They probably wouldn't show 11th v 12th, and would go for some of the higher placed teams instead. So it probably wouldn't negatively impact their figures at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmichaelsays Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said: Also, for every season where there is a thrilling tight finish at the bottom, there are probably more examples of teams getting cut adrift and finishing bottom by a big margin. Indeed. People seem to forget that London didn't follow the script this year. That's clearly good on them and good for the competition, but evidence suggests that it is probably the exception, rather than the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: We did it, attendances rose. TV audience didnt really change because of it. TV audiences didn’t rise because P&R was temporarily removed, they rose in-spite of it because of all the other things that were happening. Mid anyone seriously thinks TV audiences would go up if we removed P&R then good on them I won’t argue with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said: Do you have the figures of what happened to SL's tv audiences when they went to licencing? Other than SL, has a sport in this country ever done it? I can't think of any. How does T20 county cricket do for tv audiences? They don't have P&R. Overseas, none of the the NRL, NFL, NBA, MLB, Super15s etc have P&R. Why not? 7th v 8th would likely be competing for play-off spots, and would therefore have added interest. They probably wouldn't show 11th v 12th, and would go for some of the higher placed teams instead. So it probably wouldn't negatively impact their figures at all. First point - no they haven’t, and there’s a reason why, it doesn’t fit in with British sporting culture. Second point - again it’s irrelevant what they do in America and australia, we have a different sporting culture here. Third point - if the bottom teams didn’t get shown on TV it would mean the same few teams were on every week, which would be very dull, and also why would the bottom teams get any money from the tv deal, the top teams would want it all in that scenario and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Eddie said: TV audiences didn’t rise because P&R was temporarily removed, they rose in-spite of it because of all the other things that were happening. Mid anyone seriously thinks TV audiences would go up if we removed P&R then good on them I won’t argue with you. This is the second time on this thread that you've provided an example, and people have responded with facts that are contrary to your beliefs. You've then gone on to dismiss the facts in order to stick to your beliefs. Evidently nothing is going to convince you that P&R is a bad thing. Can I ask you why you think it is such a good thing for the game and the growth of the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Eddie said: First point - no they haven’t, and there’s a reason why, it doesn’t fit in with British sporting culture. This statement is just a soundbite and lacks substance - what evidence do you have for this claim? I would argue that cricket is a fairly traditional British sport, and they don't have any P&R in their flagship T20 competition that makes them the most money. 6 minutes ago, Eddie said: Third point - if the bottom teams didn’t get shown on TV it would mean the same few teams were on every week, which would be very dull, and also why would the bottom teams get any money from the tv deal, the top teams would want it all in that scenario and rightly so. But that isn't how the distribution of tv money works, so this point is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 16 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said: This is the second time on this thread that you've provided an example, and people have responded with facts that are contrary to your beliefs. You've then gone on to dismiss the facts in order to stick to your beliefs. Evidently nothing is going to convince you that P&R is a bad thing. Can I ask you why you think it is such a good thing for the game and the growth of the sport? What on earth are you babbling on about. I’ve said repeatedly why P&R is a bad thing and won’t bother again as you’re too blinkered to comprehend that other people have different opinions to you. As I’ve said if you want a closed shop that’s fine but I don’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said: This statement is just a soundbite and lacks substance - what evidence do you have for this claim? I would argue that cricket is a fairly traditional British sport, and they don't have any P&R in their flagship T20 competition that makes them the most money. But that isn't how the distribution of tv money works, so this point is irrelevant. How much does money T20 cricket make and what are the tv viewing figures of games between two bottom teams compared to two top teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, Eddie said: What on earth are you babbling on about. I’ve said repeatedly why P&R is a bad thing and won’t bother again as you’re too blinkered to comprehend that other people have different opinions to you. As I’ve said if you want a closed shop that’s fine but I don’t. On the contrary, I'm very open to other opinions, but you haven't provided any strong arguments as to why your stance is worthy of consideration. I think your statement above has an element of projection about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Tonks Sidestep Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 35 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said: Do you have the figures of what happened to SL's tv audiences when they went to licencing? Other than SL, has a sport in this country ever done it? I can't think of any. How does T20 county cricket do for tv audiences? They don't have P&R. Overseas, none of the the NRL, NFL, NBA, MLB, Super15s etc have P&R. Why not? 7th v 8th would likely be competing for play-off spots, and would therefore have added interest. They probably wouldn't show 11th v 12th, and would go for some of the higher placed teams instead. So it probably wouldn't negatively impact their figures at all. 1 minute ago, Eddie said: How much does money T20 cricket make and what are the tv viewing figures of games between two bottom teams compared to two top teams? For T20 the 18 1st class counties are split into 2 (was 3) geographically based groups with the top 4 from each progressing to the ko stages. There are no 'divisions' to be promoted or relegated from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Eddie said: How much does money T20 cricket make and what are the tv viewing figures of games between two bottom teams compared to two top teams? I don't know, but even if I did provide you with evidence that contradicts your standpoint, you would dismiss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said: For T20 the 18 1st class counties are split into 2 (was 3) geographically based groups with the top 4 from each progressing to the ko stages. There are no 'divisions' to be promoted or relegated from. Exactly my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Relegation and its fight just isnt that interesting. That is a matter of opinion, I find it interesting. Also I wouldn’t watch anything other than the top teams if there was no relegation, but again that may be just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said: I don't know, but even if I did provide you with evidence that contradicts your standpoint, you would dismiss it. Why quote it to support an argument if you don’t know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said: For T20 the 18 1st class counties are split into 2 (was 3) geographically based groups with the top 4 from each progressing to the ko stages. There are no 'divisions' to be promoted or relegated from. Maybe we should just do that then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Eddie said: Why quote it to support an argument if you don’t know? I was using the example to point out that cricket is fairly steeped in "British sporting culture", and yet they don't have P&R in their flagship competition. Again, what is your argument for why P&R is likely to be more effective for the commercial growth of the sport? You can't claim people are closed minded if you then refuse to provide any arguments to try and persuade them to change their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 6 hours ago, scotchy1 said: It isnt a matter of opinion. Its measurable. We measure it. By and large games involving relegation teams just dont attract people in bigger numbers than they otherwise would. It is amazing that TV companies keep showing relegation battles isn't it? They clearly know less than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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