Super League expecting to field investment offers in February

[GUBRATS]

33 minutes ago, cookey said:

The money was spent on the same players and coaches who were playing the game before the Sky money became available.Not a single penny was spent on ground improvements,which is why we still have hovells at Castleford,Wakefield and Bradford.

But we went from 2 to 14 full time teams , same players yes , but fully Pro 

[Smudger06]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

In this instance, yes. 

What do you think ranked pari passu means in this context?

I'm still waiting for you to explain how each club owns 1/12th of SLE Ltd when 13 Shares of £1 value are in issue. 

[The 4 of Us]

34 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Will a British League be that much bigger than the current English one though? The Welsh and Scottish clubs don’t get very impressive crowds, most of them are just constructs anyway, rather than clubs, and are hard to support in the traditional sense. 

I would say so yes. Cross British Isles interest. A lot of what has held back crowds in with some  Pro14 teams, not dissimilar to SL, is likely to be the fixture list. Throw in a Leeds, Leicester, Wigan or a Bath in there and I think you’ve got a “product” some TV companies may wish to do something like the Premier League with. A couple of conferences and a good second tier and you have something to work with. Probably pie in the Sky stuff but the CVC-Rothschild combo are used to making something into something more! https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/2b38840e-051b-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5

 

[Eddie]

38 minutes ago, The 4 of Us said:

I would say so yes. Cross British Isles interest. A lot of what has held back crowds in with some  Pro14 teams, not dissimilar to SL, is likely to be the fixture list. Throw in a Leeds, Leicester, Wigan or a Bath in there and I think you’ve got a “product” some TV companies may wish to do something like the Premier League with. A couple of conferences and a good second tier and you have something to work with. Probably pie in the Sky stuff but the CVC-Rothschild combo are used to making something into something more! https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/2b38840e-051b-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5

 

I thought you meant merging the two main British Union leagues, not SL as well. I can’t see that happening personally, hope not anyway. 

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, The 4 of Us said:

From the sister paper. It doesn’t take a huge leap for this to get much bigger. And a TV deal to match. https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/33328/a-british-league-will-happen-in-two-years/

There may well be a British union club comp but if the codes merged the Six Nations dies. And so it won’t happen.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

There may well be a British union club comp but if the codes merged the Six Nations dies. And so it won’t happen.

Cracking idea grommit , I'd be well up for that , SL to merge with the Union lot , yes get on with it straight away

[Bob8]

5 hours ago, lingard said:

the clubs have already had tens of millions over the years with very little to show for it.  Rent a ground or ones made of sicks after twenty odd years of Sky money.  What makes any of you think facilities  would be improved?  makes my sides split.

There is absolutely no chance of developing the game,  do you really think RU and their media chums would let RL grow?  Open your eyes, the elite control everything in this country.

As has already been stated, there is a full time league.

What do you think would have been the fate of rugby league in Britain without it? You can look over the channel at Elite 1 and see for yourself.

[Bob8]

If there is a large investment, it is because there is the potential for growth.

There are a few ways that could be:

- Bringing back the old days. P&R and more small town clubs based in small mining towns.

- Launching the sport into international areas where there is a niche for top class sport

Which is more likely?

[absentee thoughtlord]

On 29/12/2019 at 21:53, Mark S said:

Looks like SL and therefore the clubs have been proactive in finding investment. Let’s hope the RFL don’t balls it up.

This is equity release stuff. Bad move.

If you own metaphorical land or property, don't sell unless your life depends upon it or you can get more than it is conceivably worth to a fool. And then buy more back.

 

[Dave T]

On 30/12/2019 at 23:02, Bob8 said:

If there is a large investment, it is because there is the potential for growth.

There are a few ways that could be:

- Bringing back the old days. P&R and more small town clubs based in small mining towns.

- Launching the sport into international areas where there is a niche for top class sport

Which is more likely?

To be fair, they are extremely loaded examples Bob. 

Nobody is calling for more small town clubs. 

[Bob8]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

To be fair, they are extremely loaded examples Bob. 

Nobody is calling for more small town clubs. 

It is a little absurd, I accept that.

But, I would propose (again, I have no proof) that investment is beccause they see some possibility of growth. They are unlikely to be interested in the amateur game, the existing market is not growing. It might be there is no interest and no growth, but if there were, it would be interesting to see where they think it is possible.

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It is a little absurd, I accept that.

But, I would propose (again, I have no proof) that investment is beccause they see some possibility of growth. They are unlikely to be interested in the amateur game, the existing market is not growing. It might be there is no interest and no growth, but if there were, it would be interesting to see where they think it is possible.

I agree that they obviously see growth. And tbh it is hard not to look at RL and not see growth. I think from 1996 we made a lot of improvements with the investment that came, I know it is fashionable to say we did nowt but the professionalism and facilities are far far better now than 25 years ago, and crowds much better at top level. I think those improvements were largely getting the basics right and becoming stronger businesses. We don't lose tens of millions plus each year like some sports (or clubs), because we can't afford to. 

Now though, minor tweaks won't deliver major growth, which is what they would surely be looking for. A positive I see from investment like this is that some of the demands that come with it may see us have to be more bold. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a closed SL, with investment in expansion teams across the UK, including London. It would be interesting to see whether they believed in the N.A expansion claims. 

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I agree that they obviously see growth. And tbh it is hard not to look at RL and not see growth. I think from 1996 we made a lot of improvements with the investment that came, I know it is fashionable to say we did nowt but the professionalism and facilities are far far better now than 25 years ago, and crowds much better at top level. I think those improvements were largely getting the basics right and becoming stronger businesses. We don't lose tens of millions plus each year like some sports (or clubs), because we can't afford to. 

Now though, minor tweaks won't deliver major growth, which is what they would surely be looking for. A positive I see from investment like this is that some of the demands that come with it may see us have to be more bold. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a closed SL, with investment in expansion teams across the UK, including London. It would be interesting to see whether they believed in the N.A expansion claims. 

I agree with much of that.

Of course, it is dangerous to second guess others. They are likely to see it differrently and either of us could be wrong.

I actually think the UK sports market is very competitive already. You mention London, but personally I do not see a niche for a top class sport and particularly not one that in London is seen as working class.

[Dave T]

Just now, Bob8 said:

I agree with much of that.

Of course, it is dangerous to second guess others. They are likely to see it differrently and either of us could be wrong.

I actually think the UK sports market is very competitive already. You mention London, but personally I do not see a niche for a top class sport and particularly not one that in London is seen as working class.

I think the word 'niche' that you keep using is crucial. We don't need any kind of mass interest, we have cultivated decent levels of interest before, but managed it poorly. It needs investment and always has. But of course it could be London in the way Union uses London (not in London!). 

Of course there may just be the view that the commercial and broadcasting deals are massively under-performing at the moment and they think even with existing formats we should be doing better and there is growth there. It would be hard to be too dismissive of that view too. 

[Bob8]

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think the word 'niche' that you keep using is crucial. We don't need any kind of mass interest, we have cultivated decent levels of interest before, but managed it poorly. It needs investment and always has. But of course it could be London in the way Union uses London (not in London!). 

Of course there may just be the view that the commercial and broadcasting deals are massively under-performing at the moment and they think even with existing formats we should be doing better and there is growth there. It would be hard to be too dismissive of that view too. 

Thank you. The only niche I can see in London is for an alternative, hipster style event or a St Pauli style club. That could work, but I am not sure Super League would be necessary.

Other than that, perhaps Belfast or Edinburgh - but I personally struggle to see the market. Without that, it would be the bad old days of pins in a map. Perhaps others can see further than me!

[Bob8]

20 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

There is a market in every decent sized to large city in the uk for RL. They just need to be addressed in a different way.

Too often our offering has been poor and seemingly a random option of "football, but worse". Its no wonder it doesnt really make a breakthrough.

Thats the difference with Toronto. Toronto have approached this as a business that plays RL, whereas most clubs, expansion and heartlands still approach it as an RL club with a business tacked on.

Thats how other sports have run themselves for decades and RL hasnt caught up.

London have gone completely the other way and thats why they have struggled. The broncos dont really exist outside the 17 players on the field every weekend. Theyve focused on creating an RL team but they don't have a home, they dont have a real brand, they dont really have an identity. Its almost impossible to give london money if you arent close to their stadium and even then, partly you are giving it to someone else. A Man Utd fan in Korea is more easily monetised than an RL fan in Croydon.

 

I am not sure your sentance is true in terms of a regular audience of approaching 10,000 people. In England in particular, the sports market is already very crowded.

London, Liverpool and Manchester are often seen as sensible targets, yet are already hugely crowded sports markets. The middle class are more available, but rugby league is not associated with social aspiration in the UK. As you state, football, but worse".

So, where is hte market?

[THE RED ROOSTER]

1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

I actually think the UK sports market is very competitive already. You mention London, but personally I do not see a niche for a top class sport and particularly not one that in London is seen as working class.

Believe it or not, the UK is the worlds second biggest sports rights market, that's why the NFL are interested in a London Franchise at some point this decade and why other US sports have been coming over for regular season games. and , guess what, they come to London, the Capital City.

As for how a Private equity firm operates within a sport and what it gets out of it read this Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/sep/10/cvc-ownership-f1-warning-premiership-rugby-union

Some other brief points

• I am not of the opinion thart the majorirty of Club owners are seeking a return on their personal investment but an influx of funds from elsewhere will reduce the strain on their own purse. Owners funds being finite as Ian Lenagan said at a Wigan fans forum finding £ 1.4 million to subsidise his own club is painful.

• Premership Rugby Union owners would like SKY to bid for Gallagher Premiership Rugby . BT is by far the smaller platform than SKY. If SKY were to be successful at the imminent right auction then the idea of a "Rugby" channel incorporating Premiership Rugby, Autumn Internationals , Super Rugby , Super League and the NRL has legs.

• As for the British Rugby Union Competition. This idea promoted by the Celtic Unions, has bee around for some time pre-CVC. If CVC were to take irt up then it would serve as a cautionary tale for League because in order to increase their profit margin by maxmising the revenue from the sport then you would not be talking about a league based around the M62 with limited appel. You would be having a Franchised League without some of the current members. Perhaps as per the original vision for Super League back in 1996. only this time -carried out.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob8]

21 minutes ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

Believe it or not, the UK is the worlds second biggest sports rights market, that's why the NFL are interested in a London Franchise at some point this decade and why other US sports have been coming over for regular season games. and , guess what, they come to London, the Capital City.

As for how a Private equity firm operates within a sport and what it gets out of it read this Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/sep/10/cvc-ownership-f1-warning-premiership-rugby-union

Some other brief points

• I am not of the opinion thart the majorirty of Club owners are seeking a return on their personal investment but an influx of funds from elsewhere will reduce the strain on their own purse. Owners funds being finite as Ian Lenagan said at a Wigan fans forum finding £1.4 million to subsidise his own club is painful.

• Premership Rugby Union owners would like SKY to bid for Gallagher Premiership Rugby . BT is by far the smaller platform than SKY. If SKY were to be successful at the imminent right auction then the idea of a "Rugby" channel incorporating Premiership Rugby, Autumn Internationals , Super Rugby , Super League and the NRL has legs.

• As for the British Rugby Union Competition. This idea promoted by the Celtic Unions, has bee around for some time pre-CVC. If CVC were to take irt up then it would serve as a cautionary tale for League because in order to increase their profit margin by maxmising the revenue from the sport then you would not be talking about a league based around the M62 with limited appel. You would be having a Franchised League without some of the current members. Perhaps as per the original vision for Super League back in 1996. only this time -carried out.

I absolutely do believe it.

To put it another way, I see it as a saturated market.

I have moved around a bit in the western world and see many underdeveloped sports markets, but cannot see that applying to Ireland, Wales or England.

BT and Sky are interesting. The future of media is international, but the present is still largely national. The current model was based around the 1990s, I do not see it as a basis for future growth.

[Dunbar]

I haven't had a chance to read the thread in full but a quick scan looks like it could be broadly negative in its response to this news.

This doesn't necessarily have to be a bad move though, many organisations seek investment and leverage to achieve growth.  Remember that PE investment is not a loan, it is not money that needs to be repaid.

As many on here have I am sure, I worked for PE majority owned business.  Mine for 10+ years which was eventually sold to CVC in the summer of 2017.  As the company had grown from circa £20M in value to a sale price of £780 million everybody did ok out of the transaction.

A PE investor is by definition 100% aligned with the success of the business it invests in... done correctly (with the right partner) it will see one or two additions to the board and access to a huge amount of expertise and resources.  Far beyond what our sport has seen before.

Having worked in the service sector for 25+ years I have engaged with a decent number of FTSE 100 businesses but the team from CVC were the most switched on people I have ever met, it was scary how intelligent they were individually and as a group.  If we had that kind of capability in our corner seeking out growth for Rugby League it would be no bad thing... and as they would be minor shareholders they wouldn't be able to make autonomous decisions without the full support of the board.

[Viking Ste]

I cannot see any negative impact to this.  I am resigned to the fact that my own club will never dine at the top table again and any investment in the game will raise the profile/image of the sport as a whole

[Bob8]

29 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Dont be 'football, but worse'

i disagree with you even from the basis of the premise that 'london' or 'manchester' or 'liverpool' are the market or they are saturated by other sports, or even that it could be.

I dont think RL is in competition with football, cricket, tennis, or even RU for fans. I dont think sports fans, outside a small subsection, are fans of a sport in opposition to other sports. By that i mean that there are plenty of Football fans who are also RL fans. There are also plenty who arent. However those who arent RL fans wouldnt be RL fans if football didnt exist. They dont dislike RL because they are football fans. They just arent fans.

I think we generally agree.

I have long rolled my eyes at people who think targetting working class soccer fans is key, as they are defined by having lower disposable income and they already have a sport. The niche is for an event and a social identity that is not satisfied. The challenge to identify that and see how to meet it in the UK is not something I am up to.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

I think we generally agree.

I have long rolled my eyes at people who think targetting working class soccer fans is key, as they are defined by having lower disposable income and they already have a sport. The niche is for an event and a social identity that is not satisfied. The challenge to identify that and see how to meet it in the UK is not something I am up to.

I'd disagree , ultimately some people go to stadiums to watch live sport , some don't , they prefer to sit at home or in a pub and get it for ' free ' relatively speaking , personally I don't believe televising sport encourages ' watchers ' to then attend live 

RL tends to be a more relaxed atmosphere than football , to me it is that which should be pushed as the selling point 

[fighting irish]

43 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I'd disagree , ultimately some people go to stadiums to watch live sport , some don't , they prefer to sit at home or in a pub and get it for ' free ' relatively speaking , personally I don't believe televising sport encourages ' watchers ' to then attend live 

RL tends to be a more relaxed atmosphere than football , to me it is that which should be pushed as the selling point 

There's a problem though with some of the baying, (scary, bad language, implied hatred) chanting of some fans, which my guest witnessed at the Leigh v Toronto, Summer Bash game in 2019. He said ''it was an experience'' but one he didn't want to repeat. He felt intimidated and ''at risk''. It's such a shame because the game was amazing, but he was unable to relax and focus on the match. I think this factor is a very real but generally unacknowledged barrier to development of the fan-base.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

There's a problem though with some of the baying, (scary, bad language, implied hatred) chanting of some fans, which my guest witnessed at the Leigh v Toronto, Summer Bash game in 2019. He said ''it was an experience'' but one he didn't want to repeat. He felt intimidated and ''at risk''. It's such a shame because the game was amazing, but he was unable to relax and focus on the match. I think this factor is a very real but generally unacknowledged barrier to development of the fan-base.

Yeah it's a funny one. I don't think 'we' are anywhere as welcoming as we think. I sometimes think this 'honest, tough, no nonsense Northerners' thing is a real turnoff for some. 

I've noticed it more when I've brought outsiders along. My wife loves it, but then she's from Glasgow .

 

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, fighting irish said:

There's a problem though with some of the baying, (scary, bad language, implied hatred) chanting of some fans, which my guest witnessed at the Leigh v Toronto, Summer Bash game in 2019. He said ''it was an experience'' but one he didn't want to repeat. He felt intimidated and ''at risk''. It's such a shame because the game was amazing, but he was unable to relax and focus on the match. I think this factor is a very real but generally unacknowledged barrier to development of the fan-base.

Very true , I've had plenty of confrontations with my own ( Leigh ) fans over what I see as ' negative ' singing and chanting , essentially those towards the opposition fans ( sometimes there are funny ones ) or specific players , totally unnecessary and as you say ' toxic ' to the game as a whole