Rugby & MND

[Tex Evans Thigh]

6 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

MND probably has nothing to do with head injuries but given all the spotlight on concussions and CTE it's understandable why people would make the link.

University of Chicago Medicine just did a study on MND which indicated that it is most caused by an injury to the peripheral nervous system in the Arm or Leg and quickly spreads to the rest of the body.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190220112208.htm

 

I wonder if there might be more of a link with the collisions in general rather than hits to the head. The force of a tackle is often likened to whiplash and all players go through this multiple times a game. It might not be a stretch to think nerve damage from repeated collisions might be linked to MND development.

[DC77]

15 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

I remember Rob getting flattened taking a headshot In a WCC game at ER and the Aussies were High fiving each other . I forget which year it was 

Said it before, probably the worst thing RL has done in terms of affecting the popularity of the sport here is adopting so much of the Aussie game. Wrestling without a doubt is the biggest curse to come over to the game here of the 21st century. 

Aussies are into the rough stuff (“bring back the biff”). They have a different mentality. The international rules series (between Aussies and Ireland) frequently sees Aussies initiating fisticuffs. Even their RU players love a good scrap...Duncan McRae thumping Ronan O’Gara with close to a dozen unanswered shots to the head. There is also a huge issue with domestic abuse with Aussie RL players. The Aussie bloke (2018 SL player of the year) who thankfully didn’t stay here long, his name doesn’t deserve a mention. On one forty20 podcast Garry Schofield went through the men of steel recipients, and forgot one...when he and the two co-hosts remembered it was this fella they quickly moved on.

The British game was known for its finesse - which is what people here want. Those games on Grandstand were memorable because of how the game used to be played..open, attacking, skilful, risk taking rugby. Players didn’t become stars because of Grandstand, more it was being allowed to play exciting rugby. Individuals are elevated in an open game. A more attritional, less eye catching, low risk five drives, brutal Aussie style of game has impacted the popularity of the sport here that it’s even more niche than ever. 

A question routinely gets asked...what can we do to make the sport more popular. Going back to a British style for one, that will go a long way to achieving it.

[DC77]

12 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

MND probably has nothing to do with head injuries but given all the spotlight on concussions and CTE it's understandable why people would make the link.

University of Chicago Medicine just did a study on MND which indicated that it is most caused by an injury to the peripheral nervous system in the Arm or Leg and quickly spreads to the rest of the body.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190220112208.htm

 

Very interesting read. I’ve never been convinced the condition correlates with head injuries simply due to the range of people that have/had it. It seems to affect all walks of life.

Its devastating for Rob, and your heart goes out to him. The interview he did with Tanya Arnold for the BBC was a tough watch. Gem of a player and clearly loved as a man.

[JohnM]

even a cursory look at various sources shows what a com0plex issue this is. For example: The cause is not known in 90% to 95% of cases,[4] but is believed to involve both genetic and environmental factors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyotrophic_lateral_sclerosis

I seem to recall a study carried out some years into the incidence of MND amongst union players but cannot now find any reference to it.

No mention of headwear and other protection as a possible precaution?

 

[Marty Funkhouser]

16 hours ago, The 4 of Us said:

This!

In don’t think the article in the Guardian is particular helpful or informed and has used Rob Burrows sad situation to fill an article. Click bate. And to include Doddie Weir as proof in the pudding just shows how misguided the article is. 2 players out of how many that have played the game. I have no doubt that head injuries caused long term issues in all sports parole and although no expert, I trust the NHS to be more informed about the matter. 

“It's caused by a problem with cells in the brain and nerves called motor neurones.

These cells gradually stop working over time. It's not known why this happens.”

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/motor-neurone-disease/ 

There have been at least 2 dozen players, professional and amateur , in both codes, within the last few years who have died from MND. The numbers are way in excess of that expected in the general population. Anybody who thinks that there is no link, direct or not, is putting their fingers in their ears and singing la-la-la.

The latest study initiated by the South Africans , and done by scientists worldwide, after one of their greatest ever players,  Joost van der Westhuizen, died from the disease shows there is 8.5 times the chance of getting MND if playing sport that leaves the participant open to head, neck and spine blows. A consultant spine surgeon states "As far as we can see, there is a link".

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/mnd-linked-to-rugby/

 

 

 

[dhw]

On 02/01/2020 at 13:03, aj1908 said:

 

This is what caused shoulder charges to be banned.  

 

No it was not, what resulted in the ban was something completely different. An analysis was performed of the effects of the shoulder charge, based on the resulting report it was recommended to ban the shoulder charge.

[CanadianRugger]

17 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I wonder if there might be more of a link with the collisions in general rather than hits to the head. The force of a tackle is often likened to whiplash and all players go through this multiple times a game. It might not be a stretch to think nerve damage from repeated collisions might be linked to MND development.

The link is to injuries in general.  Think about how many soft tissue or ligament injuries there are to the hips or legs in Rugby.

You dislocate your knee and damage your nerves and that sets off a chain reaction in your nervous system.

There are many instances where damage to the nervous system can be deadly.  Cauda Equina Syndrome is another such instance:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauda_equina_syndrome

[Tex Evans Thigh]

1 hour ago, CanadianRugger said:

The link is to injuries in general.  Think about how many soft tissue or ligament injuries there are to the hips or legs in Rugby.

You dislocate your knee and damage your nerves and that sets off a chain reaction in your nervous system.

There are many instances where damage to the nervous system can be deadly.  Cauda Equina Syndrome is another such instance:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauda_equina_syndrome

Well yes, that's what I was saying with the collision rates. Shoulders are a big issue for nerve damage in RL players, I imagine something similar in RU with the force they go into rucks and scrums at. Hard not to think there is some link there.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

5 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Well yes, that's what I was saying with the collision rates. Shoulders are a big issue for nerve damage in RL players, I imagine something similar in RU with the force they go into rucks and scrums at. Hard not to think there is some link there.

But surely that would mean that there were far more cases of MND in rugby players? There have been so few reported cases that I don't really see how conclusive links can be made. It would probably need a long-term research project over several years (maybe decades) in order to establish or rule out any link.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

15 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

But surely that would mean that there were far more cases of MND in rugby players? There have been so few reported cases that I don't really see how conclusive links can be made. It would probably need a long-term research project over several years (maybe decades) in order to establish or rule out any link.

Clearly and I'm not in a position to have any sort of academically qualified opinion on it, I'm merely speculating. The aforementioned higher rate of MND in rugby players than the general population however merits some consideration. It's like the obvious higher risk for a Nascar driver to crash and get injured is higher than a sunday driver but not all nascar drivers are going to crash and get injured. 

[The 4 of Us]

4 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Clearly and I'm not in a position to have any sort of academically qualified opinion on it, I'm merely speculating. The aforementioned higher rate of MND in rugby players than the general population however merits some consideration. It's like the obvious higher risk for a Nascar driver to crash and get injured is higher than a sunday driver but not all nascar drivers are going to crash and get injured. 

Where is this higher rate in rugby players properly referenced. The article refers to a number of sports. There’s reference to 8 times the usual rate of 1-2 in 100,000 based on what appears to be a self selected sample of 16 examples. Truly willing to learn but I am not reading something correctly? 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

5 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Clearly and I'm not in a position to have any sort of academically qualified opinion on it, I'm merely speculating. The aforementioned higher rate of MND in rugby players than the general population however merits some consideration. It's like the obvious higher risk for a Nascar driver to crash and get injured is higher than a sunday driver but not all nascar drivers are going to crash and get injured. 

I had a quick glance (admittedly not a detailed read) at a couple of the research papers that have been cited, and the sample sizes seem so small (i.e. the numbers of athletes who have been diagnosed with MND) that I can't see how they can make any conclusions. There will be so many variables to consider, and so few subjects out of tens of thousands of athletes.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, The 4 of Us said:

Where is this higher rate in rugby players properly referenced. The article refers to a number of sports. There’s reference to 8 times the usual rate of 1-2 in 100,000 based on what appears to be a self selected sample of 16 examples. Truly willing to learn but I am not reading something correctly? 

Yes I didn't understand that either. The sample sizes are so small I can't see how any results can be considered meaningful or in any way conclusive.

[JohnM]

All the more reason, perhaps, for some original research  (as distinct from further analysis of existing research)

There is in my opinion, a great danger for our game and union too, if an unproven link gains currency in the same vein as Wakefield/ MMR gains currency amongst the chattering classes of Mumsnet and school gate posses.

For exsample,  already risk-averse schools might be put off promoting either code.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 minutes ago, JohnM said:

All the more reason, perhaps, for some original research  (as distinct from further analysis of existing research)

I suspect for it to provide anything conclusive, it would have to be conducted over decades in order to get a big enough sample size to see any trends. That isn't to say they shouldn't do it of course, but just that these sorts of things aren't going to be easy to investigate because the numbers of cases are so low.

[Cowardly Fan]

1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I suspect for it to provide anything conclusive, it would have to be conducted over decades in order to get a big enough sample size to see any trends. That isn't to say they shouldn't do it of course, but just that these sorts of things aren't going to be easy to investigate because the numbers of cases are so low.

They can do it now, we already have decades of data. Sample size is a problem, but you can manage that by expanding the group up you're looking at. For example they have an 8x higher incidence for professional players, look at those who played amateur level and see if they are above average (even to a lesser degree). 

Edit - I think it's been misread. It's not 16 examples, it's combining results of 16 different scientific studies. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

14 minutes ago, Cowardly Fan said:

They can do it now, we already have decades of data. Sample size is a problem, but you can manage that by expanding the group up you're looking at. For example they have an 8x higher incidence for professional players, look at those who played amateur level and see if they are above average (even to a lesser degree). 

Edit - I think it's been misread. It's not 16 examples, it's combining results of 16 different scientific studies. 

I'd need to have a more detailed read of it to see what their methodology is, but incidence rates are not the best marker when the sample size is so small. As a proportion of all of the players who have played professional rugby in the past 25 years, the percentage is going to be absolutely miniscule. They won't have comparable data for amateur players because it isn't as readily available, so I'd need to have a proper read to get my head around how they've calculated it and the nature of their samples.

[Cowardly Fan]

4 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I'd need to have a more detailed read of it to see what their methodology is, but incidence rates are not the best marker when the sample size is so small. As a proportion of all of the players who have played professional rugby in the past 25 years, the percentage is going to be absolutely miniscule. They won't have comparable data for amateur players because it isn't as readily available, so I'd need to have a proper read to get my head around how they've calculated it and the nature of their samples.

Wary of turning this into a stats forum, but I wouldn't see getting comparable data on amateur players as a great hurdle for any serious research project. 

Without reading it in detail I'd give it some trust as it will likely have been peer reviewed.