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Mr Plow

Oldest club

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On 04/01/2020 at 08:44, meast said:

No, 1864, that's when the "club" were formed, the 'football' side of it started in 1866, with the move to the fartown ground enabling rugby to be played there from 1878, and the breakaway in 1895 is when the rugby league side of the club came into being.

This is from the heritage group

"In 1864 the Apollo Gymnasium was turned into the Gymnasium Theatre. The athletes of the gymnasium responded by forming a more organised athletics association. In an advertisement headed "Huddersfield Athletic Club" they invited "gentlemen desirous of becoming members" to a public meeting at 8 o'clock on the evening of 16 November 1864 at the Queen Hotel. The meeting went ahead, a hundred names were registered and a committee was formed. Within a month a new gymnasium was in service in a basement on Back John William Street. The club's 1864 foundation (a few months before that of Hull FC means that it is the oldest Rugby League club, both in terms of foundation date and continuous history; it celebrated its 150th anniversary in 2014.

So in terms of clubs, which is what the OP asked, it appears Huddersfield are the oldest club.

Not forgetting the time playing rugby at Rifle Field(s) before the move to Fartown....

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I remember an item about Blackheath - some time ago - playing some sort of anniversary game.  They played to the Association rules that were in force at the time they commemorating.  One thing sticks in my mind.  An outfield player could catch the ball and call fort a mark.  At a guess Blackheath are the oldest football club in the country.

Let's be honest, the rules for matches were agreed between the clubs before the game started.  So a club could be playing Association rules one week and Rugby rules the following week.  I think the games were largely similar at that time.  I think the split came over "hacking" (kicking the opponents shins)  so for me any football club of whatever code can claim to the oldest, if it can trace its foundation far enough back.  Personally I think Hull may be the oldest RL club.  I certainly don't agree with dating all RL clubs back to 1895.  They weren't RL clubs, they remained Rugby Union clubs, they just belonged to a different Union. 

How old are York BTW?  I remember reading somewhere that they traced there foundation to former Wasps players.

St Helens still define themselves as St Helens RFC too don't they?

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2 hours ago, Padge said:

Park AVenue wanted to switch to soccer, some members of the original club wanted to continue playing under Rugby rules and some supporters would have prefered to carry on, they  between them carried on the Rugby club.

Where did the name Bradford Northern come from then? Why did they not just carry on with Bradford FC? And why didn’t Northern inherit Bradfords honours?

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1 hour ago, Mr Plow said:

Where did the name Bradford Northern come from then? Why did they not just carry on with Bradford FC? And why didn’t Northern inherit Bradfords honours?

Bradford Northern, why did Bradford call themselves Bradford Bulls or why did Keighley call themselves Cougars, Why did WIgan call themselves Wigan Wasps and then play in blue and white hoops.

Marketing perhaps? Making yourself distinct from "the other Bradford Club" and appealing to where your core support was seen to come from maybe.

It was a continuation of the same club, it was set up by some of the original  players, officials and supporters. To deny this flies in the face of common sense about what constitutes a club.

Having thought about it my money is on Bradford Northern (Union) is why the name was selected.

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2 hours ago, Padge said:

Bradford Northern, why did Bradford call themselves Bradford Bulls or why did Keighley call themselves Cougars, Why did WIgan call themselves Wigan Wasps and then play in blue and white hoops.

Marketing perhaps? Making yourself distinct from "the other Bradford Club" and appealing to where your core support was seen to come from maybe.

It was a continuation of the same club, it was set up by some of the original  players, officials and supporters. To deny this flies in the face of common sense about what constitutes a club.

Having thought about it my money is on Bradford Northern (Union) is why the name was selected.

And of course Fulham, they've had several names over since 1980? I think we all still regard them as the same ,dont we ? Marvelous how they've kept going 


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1 hour ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

And of course Fulham, they've had several names over since 1980? I think we all still regard them as the same ,dont we ? Marvelous how they've kept going 

are you referring to the broncos.  if so thats funny.  if not apologies 

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On 04/01/2020 at 21:13, fieldofclothofgold said:

Switch codes Holbeck NU club disbanded around 1904 then Leeds City moved into ER ,but Leeds United only trace their history from 1919  not from 1904 or to when Holbeck NU were formed . Sorry about that  but its getting silly now 

But that's because they had to be an entirely distinct entity from Leeds City who had gone bust in dubious circumstances. If Leeds United had just claimed to be the same club some folk might have wanted their money back?

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

But that's because they had to be an entirely distinct entity from Leeds City who had gone bust in dubious circumstances. If Leeds United had just claimed to be the same club some folk might have wanted their money back?

Just been a book published and it covers this episode about why the club completely disbanded ,but this is a subject for another page 

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FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

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Even before I was into RL, I used to ask why Bradford Northern were called that, as they weren’t even in North Bradford. I always was told it was about identification of the club. Which if I’m honest, I didn’t really understand but since I got into RL I do. 
 

I later read it in at least one of Tony Collins’ books too. 
 

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On 03/01/2020 at 17:45, Gooleboy said:

Can that stand when they went bust as Hull Sharks and were replaced by Gateshead?

Does that mean Swinton are the oldest continual club at 1866?


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On 04/01/2020 at 19:01, Padge said:

Ok, Wigan Cricket Club was formed in 1848, therefore I am taking Wigan Rugby's formation back to that date instead of 1873, because the cricketers wanted something to do in Winter and decided to form a Football Team but they were already a cricket club in 1848.

Just checked and the first Rugby match they played, they lost by 12 runs and 8 wickets!

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23 hours ago, Padge said:

There was no football club in 1864 either.

I think, in the modern fashion, you are mixing up the generic name 'football' with soccer. It's correct to say there were no soccer clubs (ie association football clubs) as there was no Football Association in 1864 but there were a few football clubs playing under various rules.

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7 minutes ago, Bulliac said:

I think, in the modern fashion, you are mixing up the generic name 'football' with soccer. It's correct to say there were no soccer clubs (ie association football clubs) as there was no Football Association in 1864 but there were a few football clubs playing under various rules.

I suspect Padge knew what he meant. 

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10 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Even before I was into RL, I used to ask why Bradford Northern were called that, as they weren’t even in North Bradford. I always was told it was about identification of the club. Which if I’m honest, I didn’t really understand but since I got into RL I do. 
 

I later read it in at least one of Tony Collins’ books too. 
 

It's a bit confusing, but I think the explanation is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Bulls#1907–1963:_Bradford_Northern

When the Bradford club split in 1907 into an association football club (Bradford Park Avenue) and a Northern Union rugby club, the full name adopted was The Bradford Northern Union Football Club, to emphasise the separation. This was soon abbreviated to Bradford Northern. Bear in mind, the term Rugby League came into use later.

The original Bradford Football Club was founded in 1863. We had a similar debate to this one several years ago, if I remember correctly it was pretty much accepted that Bradford was the earliest established club, notwithstanding any esoteric discussions about subsequent rebirths.

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4 hours ago, Bulliac said:

I think, in the modern fashion, you are mixing up the generic name 'football' with soccer. It's correct to say there were no soccer clubs (ie association football clubs) as there was no Football Association in 1864 but there were a few football clubs playing under various rules.

You are mistaking the singular with the plural.

Meanwhile...

The Football Association was formed on the 26th October 1863.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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14 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

Just been a book published and it covers this episode about why the club completely disbanded ,but this is a subject for another page 

Illicit payments to players....

Something which happened in a different way during Leeds United's heyday...... 

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5 hours ago, Bulliac said:

I think, in the modern fashion, you are mixing up the generic name 'football' with soccer. It's correct to say there were no soccer clubs (ie association football clubs) as there was no Football Association in 1864 but there were a few football clubs playing under various rules.

 

5 hours ago, Johnoco said:

I suspect Padge knew what he meant. 

Jonoco knows me well.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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40 minutes ago, longboard said:

Illicit payments to players....

Something which happened in a different way during Leeds United's heyday...... 

Well they wouldn't open their books to protect Charlie Buchan , but it opened up a can of worms a few other clubs did the same notably the club who used to be called Newton Heath . Hence the hatred 


 Soon we will be dancing the fandango
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

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4 hours ago, Stan Doffarf said:

It's a bit confusing, but I think the explanation is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Bulls#1907–1963:_Bradford_Northern

When the Bradford club split in 1907 into an association football club (Bradford Park Avenue) and a Northern Union rugby club, the full name adopted was The Bradford Northern Union Football Club, to emphasise the separation. This was soon abbreviated to Bradford Northern. Bear in mind, the term Rugby League came into use later.

The original Bradford Football Club was founded in 1863. We had a similar debate to this one several years ago, if I remember correctly it was pretty much accepted that Bradford was the earliest established club, notwithstanding any esoteric discussions about subsequent rebirths.

yes because of the argument tracing back to 1864 which is sketchy

the argument was it was the same fans basically so trace it back through clubs

bradford shouldnt be claiming the history of manningham

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7 hours ago, aj1908 said:

yes because of the argument tracing back to 1864 which is sketchy

the argument was it was the same fans basically so trace it back through clubs

bradford shouldnt be claiming the history of manningham

They aren't. Bradford FC and Manningham FC were different founder members. 

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12 hours ago, aj1908 said:

yes because of the argument tracing back to 1864 which is sketchy

the argument was it was the same fans basically so trace it back through clubs

bradford shouldnt be claiming the history of manningham

We've gone through all of this before, to be fair. 

As said above, Bradford and Manningham were different clubs, Manningham (later to become Bradford City) were the first ever champions IIRC but that has nothing to do with Bradford FC, Bradford Northern or Bradford Bulls.

Bradford FC were formed in 1863 and split in 1907 when Bradford (Park Avenue) were formed. I guess the soccer club had equal rights to the rugby history. It's wrong to say it was just the fans who made up the rugby section in 1907 though, the 'new' Bradford Northern included some of the 'old' directors and also the players who wanted to continue playing rugby. They also continued to use the old kit and rugby posts which they took to their new ground, which was the one really new thing. There was no gap and the rugby club continued from one season to the next.

I've never heard of any 'renegade' rugby section who insisted on carrying on when Manningham changed to soccer, though It would be interesting if anyone did have any such knowledge.

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11 minutes ago, Bulliac said:

We've gone through all of this before, to be fair. 

As said above, Bradford and Manningham were different clubs, Manningham (later to become Bradford City) were the first ever champions IIRC but that has nothing to do with Bradford FC, Bradford Northern or Bradford Bulls.

Bradford FC were formed in 1863 and split in 1907 when Bradford (Park Avenue) were formed. I guess the soccer club had equal rights to the rugby history. It's wrong to say it was just the fans who made up the rugby section in 1907 though, the 'new' Bradford Northern included some of the 'old' directors and also the players who wanted to continue playing rugby. They also continued to use the old kit and rugby posts which they took to their new ground, which was the one really new thing. There was no gap and the rugby club continued from one season to the next.

I've never heard of any 'renegade' rugby section who insisted on carrying on when Manningham changed to soccer, though It would be interesting if anyone did have any such knowledge.

Bradford fc split into bpa and Bradford northern?

Then the bulls can claim 1863

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