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Man of Kent

Play-the-ball clampdown

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7 minutes ago, FearNothing said:

Eligible receiver in NFL depends on where you are set for the down, either end of the offensive line of scrimmage or one yard back. The confusion often comes when an offensive lineman is used as a tight end and is set a yard back from the line of scrimmage abd the defence haven't noticed

am i right in thinking that no one other than the "eligible receivers" can catch.. so an OL cannot just turn around and be thrown the ball? 

so you basically have to have a set number at the line of scrimmage who are inelligible? but anybody can stand anywhere (not wise of course but theoretically)? so a bit like a scrum, if they really wanted to they could have the second string OL all as eligible receivers to just run over the corner (would take them a while to get there granted). 

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11 minutes ago, RP London said:

am i right in thinking that no one other than the "eligible receivers" can catch.. so an OL cannot just turn around and be thrown the ball? 

so you basically have to have a set number at the line of scrimmage who are inelligible? but anybody can stand anywhere (not wise of course but theoretically)? so a bit like a scrum, if they really wanted to they could have the second string OL all as eligible receivers to just run over the corner (would take them a while to get there granted). 

You've pretty much got the concept (without getting too technical), yes there are always the 5 of the 7 lined up on the line of scrimmage that are ineligible receivers

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Looks like Leeds and Bradford didn't get the email. Better check the junk mail before the season starts.

Edited by EastLondonMike
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From the Salford friendly yesterday there seems to be a rule where the ball rolls under a raised foot, not actually played with the foot.

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On 12/01/2020 at 15:30, Red Willow said:

From the Salford friendly yesterday there seems to be a rule where the ball rolls under a raised foot, not actually played with the foot.

I think as long as the players at least make some pretence of playing the ball that should be fine.  The just rolling the ball between the legs is not great but if its under the foot or they roll it and make the motion with the leg then I'd be happy with that.  Keeps the speed up but doesn't allow for lazy PTB's

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On 06/01/2020 at 08:21, The Hallucinating Goose said:

This right here is why I've never understood competitive scrums or line outs in Union. You've made a mistake then are given an equal opportunity to get the ball back, how is that fair? 

Actually the opportunity is not equal in union scrum or lineout. Feeding the scrum or throwing in the lineout is an obvious advantage.

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5 hours ago, bobrock said:

Actually the opportunity is not equal in union scrum or lineout. Feeding the scrum or throwing in the lineout is an obvious advantage.

Throwing in the lineout? But that’s cheating!

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20 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Throwing in the lineout? But that’s cheating!

Sorry for my poor english, I couldn't find a better term. When playing rugby union scrums and lineouts are not "equal opportunities" of securing possession. It was said in union you make a mistake and are given an "equal opportunity to get the ball back". This is simply not true.

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20 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Feel free to explain. 

I don't know if you watch rugby union. It's easy to see how difficult it is to win the ball back after a knock-on, as to to so you must win the scrum against the head. The same with the lineout although in this case, even if I don't know the full statistics, I'd say the chance to steal  possession is higher, but still well below 50%. 

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3 minutes ago, bobrock said:

I don't know if you watch rugby union. It's easy to see how difficult it is to win the ball back after a knock-on, as to to so you must win the scrum against the head. The same with the lineout although in this case, even if I don't know the full statistics, I'd say the chance to steal  possession is higher, but still well below 50%. 

Absolutely.  Since the introduction of lifting in the lineout, the throwing team has a very significant advantage.  The win rate on a teams own throw is around 90% (for international teams anyway).

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1 hour ago, bobrock said:

Sorry for my poor english, I couldn't find a better term. When playing rugby union scrums and lineouts are not "equal opportunities" of securing possession. It was said in union you make a mistake and are given an "equal opportunity to get the ball back". This is simply not true.

In a union lineout both teams are allowed to line up their players to receive the ball theoretically in the same way. In league the ball is simply tapped which ensures 100% the team awarded the penalty retains the ball, and the defence have to restart 10 metres away from the attacking team. 

In a union scrum the ball is fed straight into the middle and both teams are allowed to push in the same way and so theoretically have the same opportunity to retrieve the ball. In league the ball is simply put into an uncontested scrum and retrieved by the team awarded the scrum ensuring they retain the ball. 

I never said that in practice this is the case but the rules allow both teams to retrieve the ball from a penalty. I was saying I do not think it is right that a team is penalised and then given the opportunity to get the ball back straight away. In league a team is penalised and unless the awarded teams makes a complete hash of the restart (in which case that's their own fault) they will get the benefits of the penalty. 

Sorry for my poor English but its not my fault you're being so pedantic that you analysed ever single word in a post I wrote in two seconds. My God, some people...... 

Edit. And what I will say is you haven't actually offered an explanation into the tactics that give an advantage to the team awarded the penalty. It's easy to just say something is wrong and then not offer the actual evidence. 

Edited by The Hallucinating Goose

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2 hours ago, bobrock said:

Sorry for my poor english, I couldn't find a better term. When playing rugby union scrums and lineouts are not "equal opportunities" of securing possession. It was said in union you make a mistake and are given an "equal opportunity to get the ball back". This is simply not true.

Right I've done the research for you. 

Firstly lineouts:

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=18&language=EN

There are I think 30 or 31 rules set out by world rugby that dictates the play of a lineout. There is 1 single rule that is different for the opposition team and that is:

"The non-throwing team must have a player between the touchline and the five-metre line. The player stands two metres from the mark of touch on their team’s side of the lineout and two metres from the five-metre line."

This does not seem to disadvantage the opposition team in any way though because as illustrated in the diagram there are still the same number of players from each team between the 5 and 15 metre lines.

Every other rule for the actual playing of the lineout puts both teams on an equal footing. 

 

And now the scrum:

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=19&language=EN

There are 39 rules that dictate thge play of the scrum. Again there is just 1 single rule that is different and I would argue it actually disadvantages the team awarded the scrum. The rule is:

"The hooker from the team which threw in the ball must strike for the ball." 

So the hooker of the awarded team has to challenge for the ball which gives him extra work to do. If he doesn't he gives away a penalty. 

Again ever other rule dictating the actual playing of the scrum allows both teams to perform the same actions. 

Alright, I've been slightly Liberal when saying how many rules there are cos for both plays some of those rules dictate how the ball is played which obviously only applies to the team playing the ball but all rules where both teams are involved put both teams on the same level. 

 

Cos I'm fair and I look at both sides of the argument I would say there is 1 small advantage per play for the attacking team. In the lineout the team awarded the throw can obviously dictate the height, speed and distance of the throw and will practice this constantly and so should know where the ball is targeted when it is thrown. In the scrum the attacking team's hooker has to play for the ball and so will practice retrieving the ball all the time and will be good at carrying this action out. Similarly though the opposing hooker will do the same. The tiny advantage comes in that the attacking team should know how quickly the ball will be fed into the scrum and so could react better. Of course opposition teams will be studying this constantly in the week leading up to a game and so won't be completely clueless as to their opponents intentions. 

So once again, yes in practice, in an in-game situation the stats show that teams awarded penalties normally gain possession of the ball but I did not say they don't in my original post. I said that the teams are given equal opportunity which in the written down rules they are. Its not like the opposition team have to stand further back at the lineout or not allowed to push in the scrum, they are allowed to carry out exactly the same actions as the attacking team. It is the tactics of the team which potentially makes it an advantage not the rules. 

Edited by The Hallucinating Goose

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4 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Absolutely.  Since the introduction of lifting in the lineout, the throwing team has a very significant advantage.  The win rate on a teams own throw is around 90% (for international teams anyway).

Yeh union makes this claim about the game being all about the contest for possession when there isn't in lineout scrums or rucks or mauls 

It looks a lot like unlimited tackle league with loads more penalties 

The ball just keeps getting recycled back into another player who runs five metres gets tackles and repeat 

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5 hours ago, aj1908 said:

Yeh union makes this claim about the game being all about the contest for possession when there isn't in lineout scrums or rucks or mauls 

It looks a lot like unlimited tackle league with loads more penalties 

The ball just keeps getting recycled back into another player who runs five metres gets tackles and repeat 

Shouldn't that read barely a metre?

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3 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

Shouldn't that read barely a metre?

It's a metre from the ruck or maul but 5.From where the fatty picks it up from 

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28 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

It's a metre from the ruck or maul but 5.From where the fatty picks it up from 

Its not a metre from the ruck/maul, the defensive line has to be no further back than the back-most foot of the ruck/maul itself. 

The footprint of a ruck/maul I guess will be no more than 2 to 2.5 metres

The defensive line can move up as soon as the ball leaves the scrum halfs hands. Therefore, they are moving forward as the ball is in the air moving to the ball carrier. Hence, more often than not you see the contact point being at the mid-point of the maul (a metre or so), sometimes even losing ground if there is a split second delay in timing or a bad pass to the runner

Count how many times in a 15 phase move where the ball isn't spread wide and the attacker gets over the advantage line, never mind 5 metres

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27 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

Its not a metre from the ruck/maul, the defensive line has to be no further back than the back-most foot of the ruck/maul itself. 

The footprint of a ruck/maul I guess will be no more than 2 to 2.5 metres

The defensive line can move up as soon as the ball leaves the scrum halfs hands. Therefore, they are moving forward as the ball is in the air moving to the ball carrier. Hence, more often than not you see the contact point being at the mid-point of the maul (a metre or so), sometimes even losing ground if there is a split second delay in timing or a bad pass to the runner

Count how many times in a 15 phase move where the ball isn't spread wide and the attacker gets over the advantage line, never mind 5 metres

I think you missed the sarcasm in my post 

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2 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

I think you missed the sarcasm in my post 

Its a growing population

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11 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Right I've done the research for you. 

Firstly lineouts:

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=18&language=EN

There are I think 30 or 31 rules set out by world rugby that dictates the play of a lineout. There is 1 single rule that is different for the opposition team and that is:

"The non-throwing team must have a player between the touchline and the five-metre line. The player stands two metres from the mark of touch on their team’s side of the lineout and two metres from the five-metre line."

This does not seem to disadvantage the opposition team in any way though because as illustrated in the diagram there are still the same number of players from each team between the 5 and 15 metre lines.

Every other rule for the actual playing of the lineout puts both teams on an equal footing. 

 

And now the scrum:

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=19&language=EN

There are 39 rules that dictate thge play of the scrum. Again there is just 1 single rule that is different and I would argue it actually disadvantages the team awarded the scrum. The rule is:

"The hooker from the team which threw in the ball must strike for the ball." 

So the hooker of the awarded team has to challenge for the ball which gives him extra work to do. If he doesn't he gives away a penalty. 

Again ever other rule dictating the actual playing of the scrum allows both teams to perform the same actions. 

Alright, I've been slightly Liberal when saying how many rules there are cos for both plays some of those rules dictate how the ball is played which obviously only applies to the team playing the ball but all rules where both teams are involved put both teams on the same level. 

 

Cos I'm fair and I look at both sides of the argument I would say there is 1 small advantage per play for the attacking team. In the lineout the team awarded the throw can obviously dictate the height, speed and distance of the throw and will practice this constantly and so should know where the ball is targeted when it is thrown. In the scrum the attacking team's hooker has to play for the ball and so will practice retrieving the ball all the time and will be good at carrying this action out. Similarly though the opposing hooker will do the same. The tiny advantage comes in that the attacking team should know how quickly the ball will be fed into the scrum and so could react better. Of course opposition teams will be studying this constantly in the week leading up to a game and so won't be completely clueless as to their opponents intentions. 

So once again, yes in practice, in an in-game situation the stats show that teams awarded penalties normally gain possession of the ball but I did not say they don't in my original post. I said that the teams are given equal opportunity which in the written down rules they are. Its not like the opposition team have to stand further back at the lineout or not allowed to push in the scrum, they are allowed to carry out exactly the same actions as the attacking team. It is the tactics of the team which potentially makes it an advantage not the rules. 

I’m afraid this will be pushed to the cross-code section but what can you do ? My knowledge of the English language is poor but steadily, although slowly, improving. I am glad to learn that my simple pointing out that your statement was wrong, falls under the definition of “pedantic”. I wonder if your torrential answers allow me to speculate about you’re being a little touchy, or prickly. Feel free to lecture me about this.
The laws regarding the union scrum have been changed so many times I don’t care to remember. Right now it’s easy to detect the latest developments, i.e. the ball is to be fed straight but NOT in the middle. A part from that it’s also easy to see that all the little and big changes made through the years were not meant to change the true nature of the scrum. The chance to win the ball is not, and never was, the same for the two teams, and the rules were always, and still are, designed to produce this outcome. The same goes with the lineouts. Teams could practice 24/7 but wouldn’t win the ball with that sort of percentage if the rules weren’t what they are.
 

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https://www.rugby-league.com/article/56216/on-field-changes-for-

So now it's been confirmed. You simply have.. 

“to maintain balance and control and make a genuine attempt to make contact on the ball with the foot”.

Great work. Keep those grey areas nice and grey.

Edited by EastLondonMike
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27 minutes ago, EastLondonMike said:

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/56216/on-field-changes-for-

So now it's been confirmed. You simply have.. 

“to maintain balance and control and make a genuine attempt to make contact on the ball with the foot”.

Great work. Keep those grey areas nice and grey.

That’s pretty much exactly the NRL wording 

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On 17/01/2020 at 07:56, shaun mc said:

 

The defensive line can move up as soon as the ball leaves the scrum halfs hands. Therefore, they are moving forward as the ball is in the air moving to the ball carrier. Hence, more often than not you see the contact point being at the mid-point of the maul (a metre or so), sometimes even losing ground if there is a split second delay in timing or a bad pass to the runner

 

Nope the defensive line can move as soon as there is daylight under the ball being lifted which is WAY before it leaves the scrum halfs hands. If you think about it your definition would allow a scrum half to pick the ball up and run laterally half way across the pitch and the defensive line could only crab across.

Slowing down the play the ball by making it an actual play the ball needs to be balanced by stopping "lying on" to give the defence time to set. If you just tidy up ptb you move the balance of power to defence and if you just stop any lying on you would move it to the attack. It is a delicate balancing act

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46 minutes ago, DavidM said:

That’s pretty much exactly the NRL wording 

Is it?, I thought you had to play it with your foot.

Still leaves it too open to interpretation IMO though. 
Just get a boot on it.


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24 minutes ago, EastLondonMike said:

Is it?, I thought you had to play it with your foot.

Still leaves it too open to interpretation IMO though. 
Just get a boot on it.

Responsibilities of the player in possession
The tackled player shall:
a . without delay regain his feet where he is tackled,
b . lift the ball clear of the ground,
c . face his opponent’s goal line,
d . place the ball on the ground,
and make a genuine attempt to play the ball with the foot and maintain his balance.

 

i don’t disagree with you in general . It shouldn’t be difficult 

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