Schoey’s not a fan of Belgrade’s League 1 ambition

[RobertAM]

I plan on going to Ottawa Stags games in 2020 in any case but would be pumped to see them play Red Star Belgrade in addition to New York. How exciting is that. Grow the game!!!

[Eddie]

16 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

I plan on going to Ottawa Stags games in 2020 in any case but would be pumped to see them play Red Star Belgrade in addition to New York. How exciting is that. Grow the game!!!

Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not. Surely you’d rather see them play Batley or Rochdale?

[EssexRL]

Boring. RSB would add press interest (the announcement they wished to join L1 was on the BBC website), potential interest from ex-pats in the game (apparently there are 70,000 in the UK including a large community in Halifax), local interest, a nice place to visit for away games (that from London I could probably get too quicker and cheaper than some northern clubs) and, given their owner, a potentially competitive team. It would be a mistake to think their current squad would be the squad they take in L1. From reading his piece you'd think all L1 clubs were getting thousands through the turnstiles and had strong academy and youth squads. 

The only question I'd raise, which I've raised before, is can we be clear what the purpose of L1 is and how do we use it to support established non heartland UK teams like mine, long established but generally struggling heartland teams and new non UK teams.

[solly]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

That’s all very well from an idealistic point of view, but if you were say Wakefield’s owners, or a fan, and you finished 9th but went down because TWP, Catalans and Toulouse were all protected you might change your mind. If I were someone keeping an English team afloat I might think differently if there was unfair competition loaded against me like that. 

It’s not 'idealistic' because it actually happens in other sports.

I'm sorry but the rest of the post is provincialism and is the very reason why the sport is in the shape it's in.

If I were an owner keeping a small club afloat I'd be delighted if my job were made easier by expanding markets, increases revenue potential and greater opportunities for growth and support.

[Eddie]

15 minutes ago, solly said:

It’s not 'idealistic' because it actually happens in other sports.

I'm sorry but the rest of the post is provincialism and is the very reason why the sport is in the shape it's in.

If I were an owner keeping a small club afloat I'd be delighted if my job were made easier by expanding markets, increases revenue potential and greater opportunities for growth and support.

It’s not provincialism, expansion doesn’t mean at the expense of traditional areas, it means with them. 
 

It wouldn’t make your job easier either, it would make it harder if you were relegated and you missed the expending markets, in fact quite possibly your team would become unsustainable. 

[Smudger06]

3 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

This is the nub of it. If you think "existing clubs" are in competition with new ones, then any expansion is destined to fail as it's literally not in the existing clubs' interests for the new ones to succeed. 

We need a leap of imagination that sees the sport as a single whole, with clubs just being one of the stakeholders. The only compeption we should be worrying about is the competition for the attention of the public between Rugby League - and literally everything else.

That's what the North American sports do: they view the league, even the sport, as a whole as the product. The clubs are just a way of accessing it. And if they can expand it to new markets, they'll do whatever it takes to do it. 

That's one of the key differences between Clubs & Franchises. 

[DC77]

3 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

That's what the North American sports do: they view the league, even the sport, as a whole as the product. The clubs are just a way of accessing it. And if they can expand it to new markets, they'll do whatever it takes to do it. 

North American sports are empty vessels (and I’m not just referring to the manufactured atmosphere, with cheerleaders, and signs telling people to “get on your feet”). The “franchises” of the leagues there move around at the drop of a hat (they do so as they are not embedded in the community like here, support there is transient, it has to be otherwise teams moving would never be tolerated... and they move to a more profitable area to line the pockets of the owners of the “franchise” (and in North America they are owners in the truest sense of the word..it’s all about making money for them, and they get to pick up the bleedin trophy first..they are front and centre of the news.. here owners are custodians, stay almost completely in the background (the few that don’t are rightly ridiculed), and are merely temporarily looking after a club that belongs to the people).

“Go team go”

[DC77]

2 hours ago, Celt said:

The problem is, 'Belgrade' could eventually progress as fas as SuperLeague, and that could leave us with a Super League composed of London, Leeds, Toronto, Toulouse, Hull, Belgrade, Manchester etc etc.  

This is clearly the LASTthing the sport needs in order to thrive.  Gary simply wants what is best for the game as a whole.... that is, a league composed of Wakefield, Castleford, Featherstone, Batley, and a few other assorted dumps that absolutely nobody outside Yorkshire has ever heard of.  That will really help us to attract the sponsors in.

It is probably still the 1970s inside his house.

I don’t think he’s being a complete dinosaur here.

If you weaken the core, and replace it with foreign material, will that body still be as strong? It’s the argument Parksider often made.

The support for RL will always be there in those places that have always supported it, so long of course that they are not pushed to the side for a newer shinier team/place. Looking to North America is a huge risk as it’s such a transient market, with franchises not having the same connection to the community (and the community not having the same connection to the franchise) as clubs have here. There’s a deep emotional bond here that doesn’t exist there. There it’s very much what’s flavour of the month, then it’s  on to the next thing. It’s why franchises can up sticks and relocate a few thousand miles away without anyone batting an eyelid. Leeds Rhinos announcing tomorrow they were relocating to Brighton would cause WWIII here. There isn’t the same sporting culture there like here. It’s an empty vessel there as I said. 

[dixiedean]

3 hours ago, Moove said:

Stopped reading as soon as he brought out the 'they wont bring any away fans so there's no financial benefit to existing clubs' argument. Clown

Red Star are one of the biggest sporting clubs in Europe, basketball, football, etc. (Indeed, it could be argued, they'd instantly be the biggest Club playing RL in the world. NOT the biggest RL club).

Supported by 50% of Serbs. So they might bring some away fans. Potentially half the Serbs in the UK. Even if only 1% of that number showed up, that would be a fair few (350 away fans if the above figures are correct) at League One level.

[RobertAM]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not. Surely you’d rather see them play Batley or Rochdale?

Love to see Batley anytime..great club with great fans..in fact every club that has come over here to play have brought the most amazing fans and we've had a whale of a time with them...I just love the fact that great chunks of the world want to play and watch Rugby League.

[Toby Chopra]

8 hours ago, DC77 said:

North American sports are empty vessels (and I’m not just referring to the manufactured atmosphere, with cheerleaders, and signs telling people to “get on your feet”). The “franchises” of the leagues there move around at the drop of a hat (they do so as they are not embedded in the community like here, support there is transient, it has to be otherwise teams moving would never be tolerated... and they move to a more profitable area to line the pockets of the owners of the “franchise” (and in North America they are owners in the truest sense of the word..it’s all about making money for them, and they get to pick up the bleedin trophy first..they are front and centre of the news.. here owners are custodians, stay almost completely in the background (the few that don’t are rightly ridiculed), and are merely temporarily looking after a club that belongs to the people).

“Go team go”

This is a lazy pastiche of US sports. Yes, some clubs have moved, but the vast majority haven't and never will, and are deeply rooted in their cities, and have been for a century. You might not like the sports and fan culture but millions do and it's the height of arrogance to think that rugby league - which in this country has serious existential problems - has nothing to learn from the most successful pro sports culture on the planet. 

[Toby Chopra]

8 hours ago, DC77 said:

I don’t think he’s being a complete dinosaur here.

If you weaken the core, and replace it with foreign material, will that body still be as strong? It’s the argument Parksider often made.

The support for RL will always be there in those places that have always supported it, so long of course that they are not pushed to the side for a newer shinier team/place. 

This literally isn't true. If it was, then we wouldn't be having all these arguments. The sport has been shrinking for years even in some of its traditional heartlands and its nothing to do with foreign teams. It's to do with the fact that the game here has done almost nothing since 1996 to adapt to the changing sporting, social, economic and media environment that it exists in. It's losing relevance even in its northern heartland, and that's no one's fault but its own. 

Now, do I think pins-on-the-map expansion is the only way to turn this around? No, of course not, we do indeed need to find ways to reinvigorate the heartlands. But without investment and new ideas, none of this will happen. Done properly, some expansion projects can provide that to the benefit of all. 

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, Celt said:

You do know that they are not owned by Red Star football right??

They are a totally independent club, owned by a very forward thinking Australian, who simply use the Red Star name. They receive zero financial support from the football club.

They are linked to the main club, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to use the name. But regardless of the nature of the link they might still attract Red Star football fans living locally to go and have a look. 

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Hemel Stags?  Don't  you mean Ottawa Stags?

Funny that the three most successful new clubs in the past twenty years to join the RFL system are all from outside England

Yes but so reliant on English clubs producing and providing the player's that has been the reason for their success.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes but so reliant on English clubs producing and providing the player's that has been the reason for their success.

English amateur clubs that is harry, who only get (mainly young) people to come based on the popularity of the sport, which is predicated on the popularity of the sport in wider society

[The Future is League]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes but so reliant on English clubs producing and providing the player's that has been the reason for their success.

It really should be a condition of Super League that all Super League clubs have their own academies, but that falls down as some heartland clubs have no academies.

Obviously you couldn't introduce it this season or next, but come the 2022 season it should be no academy no Super League place.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Ackroman said:

We as a sport in the UK have a duty to bring credibility to expansion abroad, so there's more at stake than just pounds and pence. The fact Red Star are looking for endorsement is both flattering and challenging.....and worth the risk.

Bring credabillity, more than just pounds and pence, worth the risk, who for?

Just where is the money in Rugby League, it is not with the governing body, it is with those who finance their clubs no matter how big or how small that investment is, it is supplemented massively by the Sky Funding, and thirdly by the fans who support their clubs. 

So considering the Owner/Chief Exec/Board are the custodians of their clubs where should or does their priorities lie, is it with a 'new start' organisation overseas or will it be in most cases at the club and town they have grown up with and those who turn up each week to watch their team?

FWIW, in my opinion and considering TWP's rise it has been accomplished in the main up to now by taking lesser accomplished player's and those in the twilight of their careers from these shores to furnish their teams, they have not troubled (or should that be plundered) our 'bigger clubs' for their star player's, even gaining entry to SL we have not seen our competitions better player's transferring to Canada, is this coincidental or is it a concerted effort by the management to protect their asset's, not getting the wrath of their fans and enabling them to to hopefully challenge for honours.

TWP is one club and that is being IMHO being accepted until it will if ever becomes a threat, but I don't  think that will be allowed to happen, that is why in my opinion all these other entities being suggested in NA will if they ever get of the ground be blocked from ever gaining entry to SL, as much as people say we need to supplement these new starts, we will never ever get away from the fact that we simply do not have the playing resources to support more clubs at the top, and the statement 'Charity begins at Home' will be the telling factor by the people who control the money. 

PS if as suggested Mr Leneghan gets his way and any money that is being awarded to clubs below SL will be stopped, simply because SL clubs need it, does anyone even think that finances will be transferred to new start clubs, not a snowball in hells chance.

 

[Harry Stottle]

41 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

English amateur clubs that is harry, who only get (mainly young) people to come based on the popularity of the sport, which is predicated on the popularity of the sport in wider society

Yes they do the job of introducing, player's to our game.

37 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

It really should be a condition of Super League that all Super League clubs have their own academies, but that falls down as some heartland clubs have no academies.

Obviously you couldn't introduce it this season or next, but come the 2022 season it should be no academy no Super League place.

Supplementary to my answer above, the SL clubs then take those kids on for further education, far far more don't make it than do, but where do you think all the best academies get their entrants from, they are hoovered up from anywhere they can be enticed from, it is like an unmentionable draft system the best clubs get all the best lads. 

Not disagreeing with you, but if we are to do any investment it has to be below the professional game, producing more of the required standard to reach academy level firstly, their is not enough to go round. 

In my town we produce a good number of kids that get the opportunity to "sign on" but being within spitting distance of Wigan, Wire and Saints that is where they end up. 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes they do the job of introducing, player's to our game.

Supplementary to my answer above, the SL clubs then take those kids on for further education, far far more don't make it than do, but where do you think all the best academies get their entrants from, they are hoovered up from anywhere they can be enticed from, it is like an unmentionable draft system the best clubs get all the best lads. 

Not disagreeing with you, but if we are to do any investment it has to be below the professional game, producing more of the required standard to reach academy level firstly, their is not enough to go round. 

In my town we produce a good number of kids that get the opportunity to "sign on" but being within spitting distance of Wigan, Wire and Saints that is where they end up. 

This is the problem harry, does the game have funds to invest? 

The answer is either "not a lot" or we divert a proportion of the sky income. We cannot tell club owners/investors how to spend their money, which is just as true if they're supporting a team along the M62 or across the pond, as its not our money. 

By seeing other clubs as threats rather than shareholders in the game and its future we'll always be limited in the chances of our success and growth.

[Click]

16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes they do the job of introducing, player's to our game.

Supplementary to my answer above, the SL clubs then take those kids on for further education, far far more don't make it than do, but where do you think all the best academies get their entrants from, they are hoovered up from anywhere they can be enticed from, it is like an unmentionable draft system the best clubs get all the best lads. 

Not disagreeing with you, but if we are to do any investment it has to be below the professional game, producing more of the required standard to reach academy level firstly, their is not enough to go round. 

In my town we produce a good number of kids that get the opportunity to "sign on" but being within spitting distance of Wigan, Wire and Saints that is where they end up. 

Just on this point - It is probably a good argument for the need for more expansion clubs with academies. The big clubs will always poach the best younger talents if they are already living nearby, but it is a bit harder for a Wigan to poach all of say, London's academy, as those youngsters all have to move in order to do it. Sure it will happen (as what has happened in the off season with Pearce-Paul moving up north) But it won't be happening on a larger scale, and talent will hopefully remain with their original clubs for longer.

[Harry Stottle]

46 minutes ago, Click said:

Just on this point - It is probably a good argument for the need for more expansion clubs with academies. The big clubs will always poach the best younger talents if they are already living nearby, but it is a bit harder for a Wigan to poach all of say, London's academy, as those youngsters all have to move in order to do it. Sure it will happen (as what has happened in the off season with Pearce-Paul moving up north) But it won't be happening on a larger scale, and talent will hopefully remain with their original clubs for longer.

And............. what this thread is all about being overseas clubs, what will they give back in terms of player development Click? There just ain't enough to go round especially at the top of the game i.e. SL without jettisoning some clubs to make way for those who insist on a top down approach to new clubs, as I have said many times we are not expanding we will be taking the circus to town.

[Click]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And............. what this thread is all about being overseas clubs, what will they give back in terms of player development Click? There just ain't enough to go round especially at the top of the game i.e. SL without jettisoning some clubs to make way for those who insist on a top down approach to new clubs, as I have said many times we are not expanding we will be taking the circus to town.

You have to start somewhere. The game cannot sustain itself confined to the heartlands any longer.

[JonNgog]

Why continue to give this dinosaur a platform when there are countless passionate rugby league people who actually have knowledge of the international game? We hear quite enough of these pub bore arguments already, they bring absolutely nothing to the table.

[Harry Stottle]

25 minutes ago, Click said:

You have to start somewhere. The game cannot sustain itself confined to the heartlands any longer.

But my worry is going into virgin territories will not reverse the trend, it will accelerate it, if existing clubs are indeed victims of giving way to accomodate new entities who cannot add to the playing pool and subsequently the game looses those areas that do produce player's we are in big bother.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, JonNgog said:

Why continue to give this dinosaur a platform when there are countless passionate rugby league people who actually have knowledge of the international game? We hear quite enough of these pub bore arguments already, they bring absolutely nothing to the table.

Who is that directed at Jon?