Robin Evans Posted January 26, 2020 Author Share Posted January 26, 2020 10 hours ago, Red Willow said: Talking about debt shouldn't be a taboo. Boom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 13 hours ago, Bearman said: Is there a case that seeing debt as the last taboo is perhaps the wrong way round. Perhaps debt is not taboo enough?. Thankfully I am not in debt. But that is perhaps because I would rather put food on the table or pay for energy, rather than buy an item that I cannot afford. Consumerism is the God that advertising and the modern world has created. "We went it new and we want it now. Advertisers have succeeded in making people believe that they are failures if they cannot keep up with the Jones's. As posted above it is easy to get in to debt but not easy to get out of it. But as some posts have shewn it can be beaten but it is not easy. The problem is it is hard and takes work. It needs a sacrifice and there isn't a quick fix and that isnt the easy answer that some people are looking for. The danger is that when no-one appears to be suffering the consequences of debt, the only side shown is from the adverts. "You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 On 25/01/2020 at 23:05, Red Willow said: When I bought my first house the mortgage rate was something daft like 18% with 2 young children it was hard. We got though it. However the amount of total debt required to buy a house and for a deposit was far less back then: In 1970, the average weekly wage was around £32 (£1,664pa). A property could be bought in places for £4,975. A price to wage ratio of 3 years wages. Today the equivalent (by average earnings and house prices) is wages £35,000pa but the average house price is £233,000 giving a ratio of 6.65, over twice as much in real terms. Of course the gap is far wider in certain parts of the country, London and the South West. And much larger deposits are normally needed these days, 10% usually being the minimum for a first time buyer. Plus private rents are often much higher relatively than they were back in the 70s; the monthly cost of renting a terraced house in a not that great area of Liverpool isn't that far off the cost of my mortgage on a house that is worth something like 3 times the value. Yes there is a housing shortage, but according to George Clarke, The Great British Property Scandal: Every Empty Counts there are something like a million unoccupied properties in this country for one reason or another. Get those back into a decent state of repair/on the market and things would be much better. "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Debt hasn't been a taboo since I were a lad. I think I've posted this before but when I needed a loan I went to the bank for a short term one. They refused me because although I owned a house and car that I owed nothing on and pointed this out this meant nothing to them. I didn't have debt so I was gulity of debt avoidance not debt management which was necessary for them to evaluate whether I could have a loan. This defied logic as far as I was concerned because if you had debt you could have more so long as you were paying it back even in the most minimal sense. Living a life where you have to have debt to be a good risk for more debt and you can keep adding to the debt you owe while still owing huge parts of the last one sounds like a recipe for disaster. 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, Saint 1 said: How can you prove to be a good borrower if you've never proven you can borrow and pay something back? Believing this stupidity is part of the problem; I'd paid my way, owned everything and owed nothing and was considered a poor risk because of this. This was literally one of those very short bridging loans so we could get somewhere to live and we could take up jobs we'd been offered. And it was with the bank we'd been with for over two decades as a couple! Since then I've had a credit card that I use now and again to build up their stupid vision of me as a good risk. When I use it it's paid off in total immediately so I still owe nothing and will have paid for everything but I'm a much better risk now! 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 Bonkers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 On 24/01/2020 at 20:58, Wolford6 said: The country needs 250,000 houses to be built per annum. It's been building 100, 000 or so. House prices are high, building societies are asking for 10% deposits. Where is an early twenties couple going to get £20,000 cash deposit for a house in an average area of the country? You can buy really cheap houses in the rustbelt, but generally in not-pleasant locations and there are fewer high-paying jobs in the private sector. In Bradford, a former bed shop has been granted planning permission for conversion into 10 (I think) bedsitters. Young people are getting penalised for not affording a mortgage by paying extortionate rents. If they have a mortgaage it takes too much out of their weekly nett income. If we could resolve the housing crisis, we'd go a long way to resolving the debt crisis. But part of this is expectations By mums mum lived in a 2 up 2 down terrace my mum and uncle where brought up in it and when g.nan got really old she spent her last few years in it. My mum and dad were caught by the 1970 house price rises where despite him working for the GPO (telephones) and getting extra money for being the telephone guy in the local observer corps unit (got to sit in the bunker) they couldnt get a house so we lived in a residential caravan until i was 2 1/2 when we got a council flat. My mum then split up and remarried a farmer who had a 3 bedroom semi (farm workers cottage kept when the main farmhouse was sold to provide a house for his brother and parents when father retired) we were 3 boys and 1 girl (later 4 boys) in that tiny semi with no cavity walls or central heating. I never went on a family overseas holiday EVER, in fact i cant remember us ever going away for more than a couple of days maybe a long weekend and it was always to stay with a family and kipping on bedroom floors. I worked an entire summer holidays on the farm aged 15 and was given £20 as thanks (that was in 1986) Imagine suggesting that as normal now Kids expect their own room (definitely in white middle class families), having to share is seen as demeaning even with a sibling of the same sex. One of my daughters team mates mum is the director of a small IT firm but she and her sister share a room as her mum wont get into more debt just for a bigger house that the girls will move out of shortly anyway. She never admits it to people as she is "ashamed" whilst a lot of the other girls who have their own rooms and go on holidays it is all on the never never Add this together with fragmented families where both mother and father are trying to keep bedrooms for the children and you can see how the amount of bedrooms required be family seems to have risen while birthrates have actually fallen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 On 27/01/2020 at 14:22, Griff9of13 said: However the amount of total debt required to buy a house and for a deposit was far less back then: In 1970, the average weekly wage was around £32 (£1,664pa). A property could be bought in places for £4,975. A price to wage ratio of 3 years wages. Today the equivalent (by average earnings and house prices) is wages £35,000pa but the average house price is £233,000 giving a ratio of 6.65, over twice as much in real terms. Of course the gap is far wider in certain parts of the country, London and the South West. And much larger deposits are normally needed these days, 10% usually being the minimum for a first time buyer. Plus private rents are often much higher relatively than they were back in the 70s; the monthly cost of renting a terraced house in a not that great area of Liverpool isn't that far off the cost of my mortgage on a house that is worth something like 3 times the value. Yes there is a housing shortage, but according to George Clarke, The Great British Property Scandal: Every Empty Counts there are something like a million unoccupied properties in this country for one reason or another. Get those back into a decent state of repair/on the market and things would be much better. 1970 is when it went mad in sussex, my parents were gazumped 3 times and lost so much in the professional fees they had incurred my dad has never owned a house and my mum not until 15 yrs ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 24 minutes ago, Johnoco said: It’s purely anecdotal evidence but I always think about the people who I remember on my street or the immediate area. (Council estate) I remember a couple of guys in particular, one was a postman and the other worked in a local factory that made tractors (incredible as it might sound today, we had factories like that in Bradford) Neither were skilled tradesmen, just ordinary Joes, no rich parents etc. But they both bought houses in a nearby ‘posh’ estate. I’d bet any money you like that an equivalent worker today couldn’t afford to do this. Funnily enough, there was very skilled workers on my street (mates dads etc) who were more than happy to stay in a council house and had no intention whatsoever to buy a house. Yes - my dad is happy with his council house. I actually loved the little council flat i grew up in from 2 1/2 to 6 1/2 it was huge compared to the caravan and my later shared room (1 bunk bed and a zbed for 3 boys in a little room). The only reason my mum has a house is her 3rd husband is a roofer/brickie and the local council offered a deal where people with a right to buy (she was back in a council house and could add in the 4 yrs form the early 70's) could rather than buying the house they were in use the discount against the land for a self build project on the edge of a new development. All 14 who got places on the scheme were skilled tradesmen who were living in council houses, all got to use their trades to build their houses around their normal work and all have made an absolute killing. I think her total cost for land and materials to build a 4 bed semi with huge double garage + workroom was £115k in about 2000 and it is now worth c£450k, they even got a conservatory done as within 3 yrs of the original build it was still VAT free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 One thing i do notice as a huge difference between north and south in this country is that on average Northern people seem to want/are able to spend more of their income on "things", drive around a similar estate in Reading and Marple and the cars are on average newer and higher spec'ed in Marple, the ladies have their hair/nails done more often and people are out and about in pubs and bars and wearing fancier gear I guess (and it is a total guess) that for many they can't really afford it but their is a large amount of "keeping up with the jones's " whilst down here it is not an acceptable excuse (?) to brag about how big your mortgage is and how it means you have an older car, can't afford to go on holiday etc etc. Definitely the house price/earning ratio around here makes life far far harder than it is "up north" for those that have jobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 47 minutes ago, Johnoco said: It’s purely anecdotal evidence but I always think about the people who I remember on my street or the immediate area. (Council estate) I remember a couple of guys in particular, one was a postman and the other worked in a local factory that made tractors (incredible as it might sound today, we had factories like that in Bradford)[1] Neither were skilled tradesmen, just ordinary Joes, no rich parents etc. But they both bought houses in a nearby ‘posh’ estate. I’d bet any money you like that an equivalent worker today couldn’t afford to do this.[2] Funnily enough, there was very skilled workers on my street (mates dads etc) who were more than happy to stay in a council house and had no intention whatsoever to buy a house. 1. That was International Harvester I think. There was also David Brown in Huddersfield. 2. That was my parents; they didn't have a great deal of money coming in, but they spent what they had on a reasonably decent house, though it was far from posh, just a bog standard Wimpy estate house. "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 1 hour ago, Saint 1 said: There's a record of you paying for that in a way that there isn't with cash. Do you seriously believe that people would turn you down if they legitimately believed they could make money off you? People with no credit history are a significantly higher than standard risk. This is not stupidity regardless of how much you don't like it. When all the other factors are ignored it's not stupid but if we had been unable to move and take up the offers of the jobs, and it was a bank we'd been customers with for decades ..... no you're right, it's perfectly reasonable and good practice. And I'll still never borrow anything from them because I regard them as thick as two short planks. I now don't keep my savings with them either. 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said: I’d bet any money you like that an equivalent worker today couldn’t afford to do this.[2] That's the real crime isn't it? 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 11 minutes ago, Johnoco said: It was indeed International Harvesters, at its height employing about 2000 people. I actually worked on the demolition of the site when it was pulled down.....it’s now a big Morrison’s. Grew up driving b250,414,618 & 634 IH tractors on the farm. They got bought out by CASE I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 34 minutes ago, SSoutherner said: Grew up driving b250,414,618 & 634 IH tractors on the farm. They got bought out by CASE I think As did David Brown in Huddersfield. "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 5 minutes ago, Johnoco said: I didn’t know that, I knew they kept a site going in Doncaster instead of Bradford though. Oddly enough the 360deg diggers used were CASE machines. i wouldnt swear to it but i think the McCormick International agri business went to CASE and the construction equipement side went to someone else so i think less of a link than first appears between CASE 360's and IH tractors We used to have a 6D that had retired to our land after it got old (mate of dads owned a small ground work contractors) learned to drive that as well, along with a trackmarshall and a wheeled bulldozer thing my dad always referred to as "the Drop" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanC Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 How did we get diverted off on to this tangent? Isn't there a famous quote, something about the only certainty in life being debt and tractors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 10 minutes ago, Johnoco said: Yeah, I think it’s one from Worzel Gummidge I think I was known as wurzel at school as i lived on a farm and had messy hair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Actually growing up on a farm taught me loads on debt All the neighbouring farms borrowed hundreds of thousands for the latest kit and had to work like nutters just to service their debt. We survived on make do and mend of old kit bought at farm sales and repaired/bodged to keep going which meant whilst we were "less efficient" it didnt matter as any efficiency savings seemed to be less than the debt costs of making those savings looking at our neighbours Other than the mortgage and a very small student loan (my 2nd year was the first year of the loan and it was only about £450 then) i have NEVER bought anything i didnt have the money for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleep1673 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Are we talking general debt here, or are we talking debt of Rugby League Clubs? My mobile phone died three weeks ago, and I assumed my service provider would sell me a replacement, on a monthly contract, so I searched for a likely one, and chose the Samsung Galaxy A50, when I spoke to them they refused, they said my credit had been turned down, so I went to Carphone Warehouse, and was told the same thing, they told me to see what my credit rating was on one of the credit score websites, so I went online, and checked experian, and did a credit score, problem was it wouldn't give it to me, I assume it is either because it is so low, it is embarressing, or because I was on the Library computer, they couldn't divulge it via a public terminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I earn more really good wage - maybe 3 times average but feel skint Have decent sized but not massive house, 2 kids and part time working wife Constantly seem to see people who work for me with masses more money for clothes, cars, holidays etc. I buy most clothes/shoes on Ebay if I can, sneak booze into any rugby, packed lunch on any family days out etc... We have cheap British holidays, inexpensive older cars, hardly go boozing much. Aside from mortgage no massive debt but little savings It doesn't make sense except maybe everyone else is just racking up debt?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 23 hours ago, SSoutherner said: I was known as wurzel at school as i lived on a farm and had messy hair Did you have an aunt Sally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 17 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said: I earn more really good wage - maybe 3 times average but feel skint Have decent sized but not massive house, 2 kids and part time working wife Constantly seem to see people who work for me with masses more money for clothes, cars, holidays etc. I buy most clothes/shoes on Ebay if I can, sneak booze into any rugby, packed lunch on any family days out etc... We have cheap British holidays, inexpensive older cars, hardly go boozing much. Aside from mortgage no massive debt but little savings It doesn't make sense except maybe everyone else is just racking up debt?? Yes Cars on lease, massive phone contracts, furniiture on HP etc etc. All good until it isnt when their world will come crashing down around them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, Johnoco said: Seriously? You earn close to £100k a year and are skint? You must have a huge mortgage or a secret habit! 3x average is about £80k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, Johnoco said: I thought average was about £33K? Whatever, it’s a bloody good wage. I have seen lots of different numbers - i think for FT is is that kind of number and when you add in PT workers it brings average to close to £27k or maybe that was median pay - who know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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