Cake Tiger Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 4 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said: As Eddie pointed out TWP have gone from nothing to SL in 3 years; they have generated more column inches/social media and discussion amongst RL and non-RL followers than all of the other SL clubs combined; the owner has pumped in $21m and they signed arguably the most recognised rugby player on the planet. So I assume all that hasn’t impressed you? Unlike Cas who have given out bull excrement for many years about moving to a new ground. I know as I am a Cas supporter. It comes down to a simple question ‘What is the best for RL in the long term’. Is it seeing TWP as a possible catalyst that may open greater opportunities for the game at a national and NH level, or, do we flatly deny TWP any wriggle-room and see how it goes. I can understand the jealousy that TWP have caused because their owner has more money than any other owner, especially Cas, but I do not want to see decisions taken at a strategic level to be based on jealousy. I know the Cas ground is a dump but they can play there any day they want, any time of the year. I'm just a bit tired of the nonsense emanating from the Toronto camp. We've been here before with Paris, Celtic Crusaders, Gateshead. I hope Toronto do well but I am a bit cynical. I'd rather see a Canadian league established with the money being spent. I'd love to see a couple of Canadians in the squad. But already McDermott wants different rules for Toronto. The season hasn't even started yet. And reading this thread (not you Adelaide T) but I'm reminded why I don't post here much. Why can't someone express an opinion opposing someone else without being labelled an idiot and anti-Toronto straight away? This used to be the more gentlemanly forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adelaide Tiger Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 19 minutes ago, Cake Tiger said: I know the Cas ground is a dump but they can play there any day they want, any time of the year. I'm just a bit tired of the nonsense emanating from the Toronto camp. We've been here before with Paris, Celtic Crusaders, Gateshead. I hope Toronto do well but I am a bit cynical. I'd rather see a Canadian league established with the money being spent. I'd love to see a couple of Canadians in the squad. But already McDermott wants different rules for Toronto. The season hasn't even started yet. And reading this thread (not you Adelaide T) but I'm reminded why I don't post here much. Why can't someone express an opinion opposing someone else without being labelled an idiot and anti-Toronto straight away? This used to be the more gentlemanly forum... I don’t mind anyone expressing a point of view different from mine as that what makes the discussion interesting. My response to you was that I believe TWP have done things that have impressed me and that I see no comparison with Paris, Celtic Crusaders or Gateshead as TWP have the financial clout and backroom organisation to form a solid operation and have increased crowds each year. People have said on here before why don’t they form a Canadian League. But they are the only professional team in Canada. Who is responsible for creating other teams. Could it be that other teams will be formed in Canada and the end game is for TWP to return to a Canadian/North American League when their are a sufficient number of teams? Who knows We also have to be realistic about home grown Canadians in the squad. Melbourne Storm, one of the most professional teams in the game have been around for 20 years and have hardly brought through any Victorian born players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 I do have some sympathy for TWP's position I must admit. At first I dismissed the thought of dispensation, however I suppose we need to ask is it reasonable to expect a new club on the other side of the world to have an Academy team that they can supplement the 1st team squad with like other clubs do? I'm not sure it can be done so easily just yet. I think there maybe needs to be some concessions around DR and Loan players, to cater for the unique circumstances they face. On the flip side, maybe had they invested in London Skolars like they said they would they would have had a youth partnership by now, and Salford also don't have an Academy IIRC so not sure whether they would be happy with concessions for TWP. I'd be happy with something like an allowance of £100k for DR or Loan players on top of their cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Can we cut out the 'flat capper, jealous, hater' etc tagss every time somebody says anything that doesn't celebrate TWP? People are actually allowed to have a negative view of this, particularly if they are presenting it rationally. Sure there are a couple of people who are going over the top, but I'd say we are literally talking maybe 2. The attacks on any critics is becoming completely over the top and is suppressing discussion and debate. I went back to an old TWP thread recently and the tone was very different and more enjoyable sensible discussion. The biggest change hasn't come from those classed as critics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 2 things bother me about this 1 why don't they know for certain if they are or aren't at/over the cap now ? 2 why is this request happening now , rather than 12 months ago ? , You didn't need to be a SL coach to realise that their squad size was nowhere near big enough to get through a SL season , yes because of the quality of their players they could play players out of position in the Championship and still beat everybody , but that wasn't going to happen when they went up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: 2 things bother me about this 1 why don't they know for certain if they are or aren't at/over the cap now ? 2 why is this request happening now , rather than 12 months ago ? , You didn't need to be a SL coach to realise that their squad size was nowhere near big enough to get through a SL season , yes because of the quality of their players they could play players out of position in the Championship and still beat everybody , but that wasn't going to happen when they went up To be fair, McDermott won't be managing the cap himself and it does say they are engaged with the RFL so this may have been going on for a while. We do also know that the likes of McDermott and Noble enjoy a good story, less so about the detail or whether things are exactly true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, NOS4A2 said: Melbourne storm cheated the salary cap, so I suppose Toronto asking beforehand is a step in the right direction. Toronto are an English side playing in a Canadian City. Nobody (I believe) hates them, it's just every time you ask "why.... What's the point"? you get called a flat capped anti-expansionist, when I have to say I think it's a valid question Do you also endlessly slate Melbourne for being a NSW side in a Victorian City? Or the Tongan national team, they are full of Australians and played their games in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 19 minutes ago, Dave T said: To be fair, McDermott won't be managing the cap himself and it does say they are engaged with the RFL so this may have been going on for a while. We do also know that the likes of McDermott and Noble enjoy a good story, less so about the detail or whether things are exactly true. No he won't , but who is ? , Surely they would have informed him one way or another ? It seems to me to be a situation where if you wait to the last minute , you then can blackmail your way to getting what you want , what if there is no dispensation ? , Will we see a SL club putting out a bare 13 players for a game ? , A very real possibility IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Koucash wanted the same dispensation too. The rfl shouldn't just change the rules for one team. They made some questionable signings before re imports This is just rocking the boat imo Any changes won't be for this year so wolfpack have to make sure they win games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 1 hour ago, NOS4A2 said: Neither, although both those sides have delivered a tangible benefit to the game. Melbourne by setting up camp in the 2nd biggest metro market and enemy territory. A project backed by the games owners and broadcast partners I would add. Tonga, by shaking up the international scene, regardless of birthplace.....and delivering some great crowds in the World Cup Toronto on the other hand are a rich blokes toy who have bought 3 shields and 2 promotions and who have now asked to be allowed to spend more than other teams in the league so they can buy success there too. Read back my last paragraph and explain how I am wrong. Toronto have done the same as Melbourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 1 hour ago, NOS4A2 said: Melbourne storm cheated the salary cap, so I suppose Toronto asking beforehand is a step in the right direction. Toronto are an English side playing in a Canadian City. Nobody (I believe) hates them, it's just every time you ask "why.... What's the point"? you get called a flat capped anti-expansionist, when I have to say I think it's a valid question 28 posts so far 26 being negative on Toronto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR23 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 I have nothing against Toronto or expansion but this seems to be a fairly simple issue to me - they have mismanaged their player contracts and the salary cap (not Superleague, the RFL or anybody else) and they are now seeking a way around this. We could argue all day about the difficulties Toronto face over other clubs but what seems clear is that they knew what they were getting into and they shouldn't be stamping their feet about it a few weeks from the start of the season. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, LR23 said: I have nothing against Toronto or expansion but this seems to be a fairly simple issue to me - they have mismanaged their player contracts and the salary cap (not Superleague, the RFL or anybody else) and they are now seeking a way around this. We could argue all day about the difficulties Toronto face over other clubs but what seems clear is that they knew what they were getting into and they shouldn't be stamping their feet about it a few weeks from the start of the season. Just my opinion. Exactly my point , it's not like the SL salary cap is a secret , their intention was to get into SL as quick as possible , so why all of a sudden " oh ###### , we've spent all the cap on not enough players " , why didn't they ask in October the day after winning promotion ? , Or indeed 2 years ago when they first got promoted to the Championship ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 7 hours ago, SL17 said: He wants the cap raised and you haven’t even played a game in SL yet. Sounds like somebody is running scared. Or can’t find alternative answers! What has Leigh & Beaumont got to do with this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 6 hours ago, Cameron Highlander said: To TIWIT, Kayakman, Adelaide Tiger, and all others who think of TWP in a positive light. I'd strongly suggest you stay totally clear of this thread and leave it 100% to the negative towards TWP idiots. They can party-hearty with it until it fizzles out. If you stick with it....the thread that is......you won't win and stress yourselves out. My advice FWIW. I ain't opening this one again. This thread has caused the biggest party in Leigh since they opened a Greggs there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 I cant remember what we discussed before TWP came along. If theyve done nothng else, theyve brought more publicity to the game. Only time will tell if buying Sonny Bill was the right thing to do and if an injury comes along, things might change. Its going to be interesting to see Clubs attendances compared to last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TboneFromTO Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Should they get dispensation? No. I don't think so. Should have spent more wisely! However, if twp we given central distribution (or even a reduced cut) on the expectation they run a reserves squad this might not be an issue. Ultimately poor financial decisions are the fault of the management, and if us twp fans are going to be critical of teams spending (lord knows some of us have) then we need to be critical of ourselves too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said: I cant remember what we discussed before TWP came along. If theyve done nothng else, theyve brought more publicity to the game. Only time will tell if buying Sonny Bill was the right thing to do and if an injury comes along, things might change. Its going to be interesting to see Clubs attendances compared to last season. Mostly we discussed P and R , so pretty much the same as now , back then it was London , the Les Cats who were the focal point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Why doesn't doesn't Rugby League want to break into the biggest sports market in the world with a self funding team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said: Should they get dispensation? No. I don't think so. Should have spent more wisely! However, if twp we given central distribution (or even a reduced cut) on the expectation they run a reserves squad this might not be an issue. Ultimately poor financial decisions are the fault of the management, and if us twp fans are going to be critical of teams spending (lord knows some of us have) then we need to be critical of ourselves too! I'm ok with some form of dispensation as per my previous post, the cap rules have been designed for the clubs in the UK and France and may not necessarily suit for expansion clubs like TWP, certainly in the short term. However, you are right that on the face of it the management deserve criticism for the squad they have put together (so far). Looking at last year, the 12 SL clubs used: An average of 32 players each. Lowest was saints with 28. Highest was Hull KR with 37. If you adjusted these numbers to remove any players who had played fewer than 5 games (fringe players being given experience - not perfect but probably removes a number of players who didn't 'need' to be used last year): Average of 27 players per club used. Lowest was Saints/Wire with 24, highest was Hull KR with 31. This suggests that the bare minimum you could possibly use throughout the year is around 24, but likely to be the adjusted average of 27. Bearing in mind the salary cap is for your first 25 players, for TWP to not even get a 25 man squad together is poor. If they did that, surely a couple more loans would have been possible, or even signing a couple of young lads and playing them in the UK via DR would have been possible. It seems odd that they haven't done this. It will be interesting to watch what comes of this, but it doesn't look overly smart by them right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 1 hour ago, aj1908 said: 28 posts so far 26 being negative on Toronto He must be an Ottawa fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omott91 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 2 hours ago, NOS4A2 said: Neither, although both those sides have delivered a tangible benefit to the game. Melbourne by setting up camp in the 2nd biggest metro market and enemy territory. A project backed by the games owners and broadcast partners I would add. Tonga, by shaking up the international scene, regardless of birthplace.....and delivering some great crowds in the World Cup Toronto on the other hand are a rich blokes toy who have bought 3 shields and 2 promotions and who have now asked to be allowed to spend more than other teams in the league so they can buy success there too. ''Melbourne by setting up camp in the 2nd biggest metro market and enemy territory'' ie similar to Toronto. ''delivering some great crowds',' ie just like Toronto. Now you're just contradicting yourself. ''Toronto on the other hand are a rich blokes toy who have bought 3 shields and 2 promotions,'' This is where the flat capper and jealousy references arise from. They adhered to the cap and played within the rules. What exactly do you have a problem with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omott91 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 53 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: Mostly we discussed P and R , so pretty much the same as now , back then it was London , the Les Cats who were the focal point 57 minutes ago, Lowdesert said: I cant remember what we discussed before TWP came along. If theyve done nothng else, theyve brought more publicity to the game. Toulouse were the big topic before Toronto. Once the next overseas club enters ie New York or Ottawa, Toronto will be forgotten just like Toulouse and people will move their hatred onto the new kids on the block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 2 hours ago, aj1908 said: 28 posts so far 26 being negative on Toronto I'm just wondering who the previous incarnation was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 59 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Scrap the cap completely Time to move up to the big time. Think about it: 1. An owner wants to spend money on the sport but can't. 2. A team wants to employ RL players (but can't due to antiquated rules) but is, instead, being forced to employ Union people. 3. A club wants to promote expansion of a sport into a new market but is being purposefully held back. This is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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