McDermott: Give us some salary cap leeway

[Tommygilf]

12 minutes ago, binosh said:

Shocker!!!

Toronto have spent too much and now it’s the salary caps fault.

We have seen this headline arriving for the last 3 years, now it’s here.

Decision time.

Raise/abolish/revamp the cap. 

I want my club to go sign the best and biggest players in the world - and my club isn't Toronto Wolfpack!

[Gooleboy]

8 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah, he was as coach of London.

When it suits him then.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

When it suits him then.

When it suits his bosses too. Its a myth that big clubs like Leeds don't like the cap

[Bob8]

The salary cap does about three things:

- Makes is harder for teams in non-traditional areas to compete at the top
- Lessen the chance of clubs bankrupting themselves
- Increases the compeitiveness of the league

It is fair to say that it was oringinally intended to do the latter two. The question is what is should be doing.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

The salary cap does about three things:

- Makes is harder for teams in non-traditional areas to compete at the top
- Lessen the chance of clubs bankrupting themselves
- Increases the compeitiveness of the league

It is fair to say that it was oringinally intended to do the latter two. The question is what is should be doing.

I don't even think it does the latter 2 to be honest. We've seen a number of clubs go to the wall or at least very close under what has been an increasingly low salary cap. Meanwhile at the top end wages have simply stagnated and gone backwards in real terms.

As for competitiveness of the league, we still only have 4 SL Grand Final Winners, though we've had 4 other teams make the final (3 of those only once however). The challenge cup at least has a bit more variation but even then its a cup almost exclusively won by the biggest teams financially. The only conclusion then can be that the cap has made Leeds, Saints, formerly Bradford, and then maybe Wire Hull and Catalans more competitive with Wigan but hasn't helped the rest for an extended period of time. Huddersfield, Castleford and most recently Salford have on occasion thrown a spanner in that mix, but for the most part the Salary cap has not helped sustain these teams at the top. We risk becoming a bit like the premier league in believing our own hype about the innate competitiveness of the league.

One aspect I will admit it has largely stopped is poaching and hoarding players from other teams. Players are still poached of course, mostly at youth level tbh, but the nature of the cap and squad size is that they also have to play too.

[CanadianRugger]

The real reason Toronto should be given salary cap dispensation is due to the unique circumstances their players face.  The increased travel demands placed upon the players and the fact they will incur increased costs while living away from families for extended periods of time demands extra compensation.

This isn't the NHL and players aren't living at the Royal York driving Ferraris everywhere. There should be some flexibility built in to the salary cap just based on that.  I've been a road warrior before, it isn't fun and even if many things are picked up by the team, the players will incur costs that require additional compensation.

[aj1908]

5 hours ago, Bob8 said:

The salary cap does about three things:

- Makes is harder for teams in non-traditional areas to compete at the top
- Lessen the chance of clubs bankrupting themselves
- Increases the compeitiveness of the league

It is fair to say that it was oringinally intended to do the latter two. The question is what is should be doing.

I think it's dumbing down the competition now 

All.the big clubs are being dragged down to the smaller clubs level

The salary cap should be set at what the midpoint of what clubs cam afford not based upon the poorest club

A higher cap would make weed out some of the weaker clubs 

[CanadianRugger]

3 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

I think it's dumbing down the competition now 

All.the big clubs are being dragged down to the smaller clubs level

The salary cap should be set at what the midpoint of what clubs cam afford not based upon the poorest club

A higher cap would make weed out some of the weaker clubs 

What they do NA sport is have a min and max spending level.

It's not so much that bigger clubs can run away with it but it also gets rid of perpetual laggards.

[aj1908]

Just now, CanadianRugger said:

What they do NA sport is have a min and max spending level.

It's not so much that bigger clubs can run away with it but it also gets rid of laggards.

I like that 

[CanadianRugger]

1 minute ago, aj1908 said:

I like that 

Here is the NHL salary cap graph over a 10 year period:

[aj1908]

1 minute ago, CanadianRugger said:

Here is the NHL salary cap graph over a 10 year period:

Wow that's a big gap isn't it ?

 

[CanadianRugger]

7 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

Wow that's a big gap isn't it ?

 

In reality it works out to a couple of marquee players.  Most NHL teams have one line of absolute rockstars and then fill the rest with middle of the road players.  It also gets rid of players who aren't performing.  Maximizing the mileage you get out of your cap space between the floor and the max is critical.

There are also ways to manipulate the cap by sending players to the minors, etc.  

It's also good to keep a spread because it forces teams to manage the space they have which is a strategy in itself.  Sometimes teams will fill their cap but they can't perform and now they are stuck but smarter franchises keep a lower cap and they do really well, all of a sudden they have room to load up on players for a cup run.

[CanadianRugger]

@aj1908another thing in NA Sport.  Teams aren't penalized for injuries.  If you have a player that gets injured seriously, you may put them on Long Term Injured Reserve and free up that cap space for the rest of the season. 

This allows you to bring in reinforcements for a short term (1 season only) without breaking the salary cap.

The cap space and salaries are all readily available as well.

Here is the NHL team salaries with cap room for each team:

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/cap/

 

[aj1908]

6 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

@aj1908another thing in NA Sport.  Teams aren't penalized for injuries.  If you have a player that gets injured seriously, you may put them on Long Term Injured Reserve and free up that cap space for the rest of the season. 

This allows you to bring in reinforcements for a short term (1 season only) without breaking the salary cap.

The cap space and salaries are all readily available as well.

Here is the NHL team salaries with cap room for each team:

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/cap/

 

In the nrl this is an issue

A team just lost a player on 1.2 million a season he's gone for the year 

The club will get 350k allowance back lol 

 

[aj1908]

9 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

@aj1908another thing in NA Sport.  Teams aren't penalized for injuries.  If you have a player that gets injured seriously, you may put them on Long Term Injured Reserve and free up that cap space for the rest of the season. 

This allows you to bring in reinforcements for a short term (1 season only) without breaking the salary cap.

The cap space and salaries are all readily available as well.

Here is the NHL team salaries with cap room for each team:

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/cap/

 

Wow that's a lot of.teams.  

I wouldn't mind watching an nhl game one day 

It looks rough 

[CanadianRugger]

1 minute ago, NOS4A2 said:

American sports are "way" different to Rugby League. Firstly, beneath the glitz of the NHL/NFL/NBA/MLB and now even MLS, is the schools and college network beneath them. Rugby League doesn't have this, in any way shape or form.

It used to be (it may still be) that many American Franchises in the NHL are full of Canadians. RL does have this, because like Canada, Australians see the benefit of youth development and therefore many of the stars of Superleague are Australians.

As we are now seeing, some believe that throwing money at this problem will make it go away, but in the real world, Mac has asked for an allowance to overpay some more average players more than they are worth to ensure that Toronto are able to put out 17 able bodies on match day

 

Which is really a Rugby League problem.  No NHL club pays for youth development.  The NHL has a very sophisticated scouting and recruitment arm called the NHL Central Scouting Bureau, they have headquarters in Canada, the United States and Europe and are tasked with identifying and ranking the best talent.

They find the talent but it is up to others to develop it.  I grew up in a town that is a perennial hockey player factory.  The Junior Hockey franchise there has developed the likes of Mario Lemieux, Mike Bossy, Vincent Damphousse, Roberto Luongo, Patrice Bergeron, Francois Beauchemin, etc.  The NHL had nothing to do with this development though other than receiving reports that these players could play.  De-centralized development models that Australia and NA have are the way to go.

[CanadianRugger]

6 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

Wow that's a lot of.teams.  

I wouldn't mind watching an nhl game one day 

It looks rough 

And if you want to talk about development, here is the Central Scouting Rankings for this years draft:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/draftprospectbrowse.htm?cat=1&sort=midtermRank&year=2020

They have ranked the top 600 or so players in the world and have data on every player including who they currently play for.  This is used by NHL teams to look for future talent they want to draft and gain rights to.

[aj1908]

4 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Which is really a Rugby League problem.  No NHL club pays for youth development.  The NHL has a very sophisticated scouting and recruitment arm called the NHL Central Scouting Bureau, they have headquarters in Canada, the United States and Europe and are tasked with identifying and ranking the best talent.

They find the talent but it is up to others to develop it.  I grew up in a town that is a perennial hockey player factory.  The Junior Hockey franchise there has developed the likes of Mario Lemieux, Mike Bossy, Vincent Damphousse, Roberto Luongo, Patrice Bergeron, Francois Beauchemin, etc.  The NHL had nothing to do with this development though other than receiving reports that these players could play.  De-centralized development models that Australia and NA have are the way to go.

Who pays for the junior funding though 

[CanadianRugger]

Just now, aj1908 said:

Who pays for the junior funding though 

Junior Hockey is a business in Canada, the United States and Europe.  It is self-funding.

Thousands of people pay money to watch 16 - 20 years old play hockey in Canada.

 

 

[CanadianRugger]

15 minutes ago, NOS4A2 said:

I agree 100%.
The problem is more a political/social one in the UK with many schools unable to fund even basic sporting facilities. In Australia (can't speak for Canada) kids are encouraged to pay sport...all sports. In summer, becoming part of a Lifeguarding unit is a real right of passage for many. It's why they often dominate the pool at the olympics. I NZ, kids grow up with an oval ball and even today, AB's forgo early money to pull on the shirt (before fleecing the French/Japanese)

School sport is big in Canada.  Particularly Basketball and Canadian Football.  Ice Hockey is really on its own level though.

Tbh, most really good ice hockey players in Canada grow up in very small towns where the community takes great pride in their players and their local hockey programs.  The ice rink was really a focal point in my community and was a place that people could rally around.

It was also a place where social barriers were broken down.  Many rinks in rural Canada were built by mining and forestry companies who first started the communities and they subsidized the sport for the workers and their families.  Often the mill managers or owner's kids would be playing on the same team as the factory floor worker so the rink was a place everyone could come together.

Also, if a poorer kid couldn't afford hockey skates or equipment but was talented, the community would often pitch in and make sure the kid was equipped and could play the sport.

[aj1908]

35 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Junior Hockey is a business in Canada, the United States and Europe.  It is self-funding.

Thousands of people pay money to watch 16 - 20 years old play hockey in Canada.

 

 

That's so different to Australia 

Junior funding is mostly.done.by leagues clubs off poker machines 

The arlc does a.bit.through state bodies 

[To Be Confirmed]

7 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

The real reason Toronto should be given salary cap dispensation is due to the unique circumstances their players face.  The increased travel demands placed upon the players and the fact they will incur increased costs while living away from families for extended periods of time demands extra compensation.

This isn't the NHL and players aren't living at the Royal York driving Ferraris everywhere. There should be some flexibility built in to the salary cap just based on that.  I've been a road warrior before, it isn't fun and even if many things are picked up by the team, the players will incur costs that require additional compensation.

Couple of questions on that.

1) is the travel new to the team? 

2) were they fully aware of this problem before the entered the rugby league structure?

3) were the players coerced into signing for TWP without knowing there would be significant travel expectations?

4) has this been a problem before when they were in the Championship and League 1?

[To Be Confirmed]

7 hours ago, aj1908 said:

I think it's dumbing down the competition now 

All.the big clubs are being dragged down to the smaller clubs level

The salary cap should be set at what the midpoint of what clubs cam afford not based upon the poorest club

A higher cap would make weed out some of the weaker clubs 

if more that a third of the clubs were spending the full salary cap then you would have an argument to that, the fact that they arent kind of dents your argument. 

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, To Be Confirmed said:

if more that a third of the clubs were spending the full salary cap then you would have an argument to that, the fact that they arent kind of dents your argument. 

Leeds, Hull, Toronto, Wigan, Saints, Wire, Catalans, Huddersfield is over half the league, 2 of your arbitrary thirds in fact, spending to cap.

Cas and KR are probably very close too, but won't be likely to exploit marquees etc.

Only Wakefield and Salford are explicit about being significantly below the cap. 

[To Be Confirmed]

19 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Leeds, Hull, Toronto, Wigan, Saints, Wire, Catalans, Huddersfield is over half the league, 2 of your arbitrary thirds in fact, spending to cap.

Cas and KR are probably very close too, but won't be likely to exploit marquees etc.

Only Wakefield and Salford are explicit about being significantly below the cap. 

Last season Wigan, Leeds, Catalans, Hudds were all below the cap hence my original statement, that has been well documented and the reason that those teams were able to recruit mid season. 

As this season is yet to start difficult to assess who is and isnt spending.